United Left Alliance will form party, says Higgins

K-9

First item on the agenda.

Question: "I propose a split?"

dsmythy

Bambi wrote: »

Ha Ha look you're trying to claim that the lefites will lead us to penury when you and your ilk have already achieved that. Gas altogether

The policies of the last couple of years brought us to our knees. The hard lefties would bring us to the stone age.

Eliot Rosewater

20Cent wrote: »

It is a childish, unrealistic and unpopular ideology. This is reflected in the support such positions receive in real life, ie none.

Just on a more personal note, I think you're taking a very narrow view of what to be a libertarian or a classical liberal is. I unreservedly accept that small government thinking has little (and will never gain much) traction in Ireland, however that does not stop me from practising meritocratic individualism in my personal life. If you read John Stuart Mill's famous essay On Liberty it is quite obvious that classical liberalism is not merely advocated as a political philosophy, but as a personal one too.

A lot of talk is made at the moment about greed and self-centredness, especially amongst the ULA (which is how this ties in to the thread topic). Now, as far as I can see, people who vote for candidates in the hope of getting more social welfare benefits and "free" government services at the unavoidable expense of others (that covers most ULA voters) are being immensely greedy and self-centred.

Except unlike my self-centredness, which primarily manifests itself in a desire to be very good at the things I do so as to eventually achieve material gain, the ULA's kind is clearly more destructive. It comes at the direct expense of those who pay tax in any form. It contributes nothing to the economy and nothing to society.

doopa

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Just on a more personal note, I think you're taking a very narrow view of what to be a libertarian or a classical liberal is. I unreservedly accept that small government thinking has little (and will never gain much) traction in Ireland, however that does not stop me from practising meritocratic individualism in my personal life. If you read John Stuart Mill's famous essay On Liberty it is quite obvious that classical liberalism is not merely advocated as a political philosophy, but as a personal one too.

A lot of talk is made at the moment about greed and self-centredness, especially amongst the ULA (which is how this ties in to the thread topic). Now, as far as I can see, people who vote for candidates in the hope of getting more social welfare benefits and "free" government services at the unavoidable expense of others (that covers most ULA voters) are being immensely greedy and self-centred.

Except unlike my self-centredness, which primarily manifests itself in a desire to be very good at the things I do so as to eventually achieve material gain, the ULA's kind is clearly more destructive. It comes at the direct expense of those who pay tax in any form. It contributes nothing to the economy and nothing to society.

What form does this practise of individual meritocracy take - if practised in a personal capacity?

How do you know that people voted for ULA because they want more free stuff? Have you met/asked any of them?

Do you not think that it is possible to want to be good at things purely for the sake of it? I would argue that people that truly excel at anything do it for no other reason than to excel at it? You say yours is for material gain, and that the ULA do it for destruction (bit of a jump). You say that the social welfare payments that are made to those in need (we can argue about the degree of need) come from the self-centredness of the ULA. I feel to see how it is self-centred to want equitable distribution of capital within the economy - which is what the ULA purport to want. I can see how people might not agree with that idea but I can't see how its self-centred.

Rubik.

Soldie wrote: »

And yet you don't appear to be able to articulate why that may be.

I'll ignore that unnecessacry and unfounded dig there solide. I think if your anarchist liberatarian type went out on the streets of Ireland canvassing for a vote in the election, advoctating the complete elimination of the state, people would laugh in their face. Or a more moderate type calling for the state to limit itself to potection against of acts of aggression, theft, breach of contract..etc, it would be dismissed as unworkable.

CiaranC

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Just on a more personal note, I think you're taking a very narrow view of what to be a libertarian or a classical liberal is. I unreservedly accept that small government thinking has little (and will never gain much) traction in Ireland, however that does not stop me from practising meritocratic individualism in my personal life. If you read John Stuart Mill's famous essay On Liberty it is quite obvious that classical liberalism is not merely advocated as a political philosophy, but as a personal one too.

I work, pay my rent, save up and travel around the world. I dont demand any medals or recognition for it, unlike some, who demand to be recognised as some kind of hero for not claiming childrens benefit or whatever its called for their daughter, or who demand to be recognised for having a personal philosophy of not being a ****ing leech, like this is some kind of revelation. I dont mind paying a proportion of my wages as taxation to benefit society, particularly in the areas of health, education, social welfare and law and order.

This is not shocking. The best of our nations are build along these principles.

A lot of talk is made at the moment about greed and self-centredness, especially amongst the ULA (which is how this ties in to the thread topic). Now, as far as I can see, people who vote for candidates in the hope of getting more social welfare benefits and "free" government services at the unavoidable expense of others (that covers most ULA voters) are being immensely greedy and self-centred.

This is easily the most ridiculous thing Ive ever read on boards.

Do you think our young pinko comrades sit around in their community halls decked in their keffiyeh scarves, smoking gauloises fags discussing how they can get the state to increase their dole and add their ventilin inhalers and extra thick spectacles to their medical cards? Really?

Except unlike my self-centredness, which primarily manifests itself in a desire to be very good at the things I do so as to eventually achieve material gain,blahblahblahblah

Brilliant stuff Howard Rourke. I think its obvious the great minds on this thread should club together and either start a political movement to destroy the red menace or form some kind of cult on the wild plains of the Rosses.

KrazeeEyezKilla

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

A lot of talk is made at the moment about greed and self-centredness, especially amongst the ULA (which is how this ties in to the thread topic). Now, as far as I can see, people who vote for candidates in the hope of getting more social welfare benefits and "free" government services at the unavoidable expense of others (that covers most ULA voters) are being immensely greedy and self-centred.

Except unlike my self-centredness, which primarily manifests itself in a desire to be very good at the things I do so as to eventually achieve material gain, the ULA's kind is clearly more destructive. It comes at the direct expense of those who pay tax in any form. It contributes nothing to the economy and nothing to society.

These free government services aren't just supported by people who are receiving them or by those who voted for ULA candidates, many people feel the social benefits of these services far outweigh the cost to the taxpayer. It was certain people who were supposedly good at what they did and who were motivated by material gain who have been the most destuctive for the economy, society & the taxpayer.

southsiderosie

Since when has party ideology mattered in Irish politics? :pac:

Many of the people who voted for ULA candidates did so because they were good local councillors and/or seen as personally honest and decent people - not because they believed in Marxist theory, or anything like that. I've met several of these candidates, and seen some of them in action in city council meetings, public meetings, etc., and they are some of the few who actually do seem to give a damn about issues such as poverty, housing, and over-development - even at a time when nobody would speak ill of the Celtic Tiger.

Were I able to vote in Ireland, I don't think I would have given any of these folks a first preference. But I would probably have given a few transfer votes, because at the end of the day I think that their voices are needed when it comes to social issues in Ireland - and by this I don't mean throwing imaginary money at these issues, but rather the simple matter of getting them on the agenda.

Finally, I'm not sure how long the ULA can or will last in the Dail, but certainly PBPA affiliates and independents in Dublin City Council have been working together and tag-teaming on local issues, so it's not as if they are starting from scratch.

20Cent

Soldie wrote: »

I have a question, if I can make my way past all of those straw men: Which libertarians have supported corporate welfare? Let's hear it.



I find that quite hilarious, coming from a socialist. Ask yourself who created all the wealth that you wish to redistribute in a ham-fisted attempt at "fairness". It wasn't magicked out of thin air by Boyd Barrett and his cohorts. Also, spare me the "I'm not a socialist" retort; you defend it doggedly at every turn.

I'm referring to the "libertarian" who constantly likes to boast about making large sums of money investing, speculating etc. This is done as if he exists in some kind of self sufficient bubble. That industry has received more bailout money that any other. In fact it could not survive without the handouts he claims to hate so much.

It is difficult for an extremist to understand people in the center because they see everything in black and white. A lot of people are glad that there is a social welfare net and public hospitals/education, that doesn't make them chairman Mao. Socialist to me means public or common ownership of all means of production. Would be totally against that of course so I guess I'm not a socialist. But I do think that it is good to have voices like RBB in the Dail. When Enda goes to negotiate it is an extra card for him. You screw Ireland anymore and you will be negotiating with these guys not me. Would I want a ULA gov no, but I'm glad there are a few of them elected.

The libertarian reminds me of the pro-war chickenhawks. They claim some kind of bravery and mock others for not being as brave as themselves. But do they opt out and go it alone, sign up so to say? Not at all they use the system as much as the next guy.

Permabear

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Permabear

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Dr Galen

Permabear wrote: »

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oooooo swit swoo look at you and your Ivy League pendant. Do you have one of those rings, or it just the sports jocks that get those?

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

So are the libertarians on this thread - the only two in Ireland - in favour of State Education. Or not?

Just because only 2 (3 now is it) are posting, doesn't mean there aren't many of a similar disposition lurking about the place. Like the Left, there is a whole spectrum of varying degrees. Not going to make comment on the education point, too OT, but maybe a good idea for a new thread as I think you would see more disparity from those on the right than you would think.

Permabear wrote: »

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Here.....didn't you hear?

Equality and parity isn't about making us all as rich as each other. Rich is a dirty word, as are all the other words beside it in the thesaurus. The aim of many seems to be to make us all as poor as each other, cos like, weren't we happy when we were poor back in the 80's........

Permabear wrote: »

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People shouldn't be fooling themselves here, we've had this paradigm shift to the left before. Even though its actually only a mini shift in the great big reality, and imho nothing more than a protest vote. Despite what the various activists will tell you, there is little appetite for the type of socialism that these guys espouse. The call of a new car, decking out the back and holidays abroad, make all but the most hardened leftie move rightie.

That said, I do feel that if we do start to see a proper left/right type of politics in this country it will be a good thing. I may not agree with most of the policy on the left, but having them there is a good thing for the political discourse in the Dail and indeed the wider country. Offering people a true choice, based on some ideology is, in my book, a good thing. It might actually lead (shock horror) to some decent government oversight, and proper examination of policies.

Balmed Out

why do people seem to have the ridiculous notion that ff were right wing economically.
They have shown themselves to be as left wing as labour over the last 14 years.

Just because they are the party of power or associated with the 'establishment' doesnt make them right or left wing. Just because they were crooked and dishonest it doesnt make them a right wing party.

Dr Galen

In fairness, FF were bang in the centre really. They really just did trot along, doing whatever was popular with the peoples, and treading a nice line in giving everyone a bit of what they wanted, and in so doing fcuking everyone over.

I think this labelling is an indication of just how un-idealogical Irish politics has been.

Permabear

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karma_

Permabear wrote: »

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Your post belies your real fear, that you will lose some of your personal wealth. Nothing to do with what is right or wrong politically, it's greed.

ei.sdraob

karma_ wrote: »

Your post belies your real fear, that you will lose some of your personal wealth. Nothing to do with what is right or wrong politically, it's greed.

coveting and taking other peoples fruits of work is called thievery and laziness

karma_

ei.sdraob wrote: »

coveting and taking other peoples fruits of work is called thievery and laziness

But it's not greed nor laziness to expect some equality.

ei.sdraob

karma_ wrote: »

But it's not greed nor laziness to expect some equality.

fancy paying equal % of taxes too :rolleyes:

karma_

ei.sdraob wrote: »

fancy paying equal % of taxes too :rolleyes:

Even the godfather of your idealistic capitalist utopia said...

"The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities..."

It's amazing how quickly this is forgotten when it suits.

Permabear

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karma_

Permabear wrote: »

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Have not FF and the bailout given you that excuse already?

Permabear

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ei.sdraob

Adam Smith, really :rolleyes: the dude is dead for over 230 years

whats next you be quoting Marx

Rabble Rabble

Valmont wrote: »

Three, and no, state education has ruined the prospects of the young people of our country by bestowing them with two days a week of religion and the Irish language, neither of which prepare them for the modern European workplace.

Private charter schools that can actually hire and fire teachers on the basis of merit are the way forward but I know that such a progressively free proposal will gain no traction in Ireland due to its inherent unfairness.

end of off topic comments; I felt compelled to contest the attack on free market liberals based on the fact that there aren't too many of us.

/On topic, any ULA alliance will implode as soon as we get busy with business again. Bizarre, excessive, left wing protest only, nothing more will ever materialise out of that movement, and we all know it. No electorate is that easily fooled.

Um, right. Outside of the libertarian fantasy land where the idea of education is to provide training to cogs in the capitalist system most people see it as a mechanism for learning - about the past, about other cultures and our own. You mention Irish - the typical bug bear of the angry de-racianated ultra-capitalist - but you might as well have mentioned Shaksepeare, or pure mathematics, or geography or music or many subjects not useful to life as a capitalist drone, but which makes us human.

And you fail to mention cost. We actually have empirical evidence of this - when secondary schools cost money in Ireland very few people stayed past primary school, my father was the only child of his family to go to secondary school and he got a scholarship. Then a BA, then an MA. I have a degree in Engineering. None of this would be available to my class, which would have been working class, had free education not been enacted ( something which benefited both me and capitalism). And thus the economy would not have grown - the evidence of long term growth in the economy from the one time generational benefit of free education, is overwhelming.

Not that I expect empirical evidence to convince ideologues. Good to throw it out there, and see them squirm

and slightly /on topic.

The ULA may well be loons, for the most part, but they organise and get out there and get a few hundred thousand votes. The only libertarians in Ireland would get about 3 votes were they all in the same constituency and got out all the vote. If you have more support, organise and lets see the results at election time.

Spudmonkey

karma_ wrote: »

Your post belies your real fear, that you will lose some of your personal wealth. Nothing to do with what is right or wrong politically, it's greed.

On the part of the ULA? I know.

ei.sdraob

I think Permabear should run for the next Dail, promise them free milk and honey, free foreign holidays and taxes for everyone but the people who elect you

once in power sitback and enjoy the expenses, plant a tree at the local parish and call it "the money tree", tell the parishioners if they pray to this tree every sunday free crispy 50 euro bills will grow on it

/jebus do I sound like the ULA yet :P

Dr Galen

karma_ wrote: »

But it's not greed nor laziness to expect some equality.

Hold a minute.....

I work my bollix off, I work damn hard for what I get.

I'm expected to give up my hard earned to help pay for society's ills?

Fundamentally, i don't have an issue with paying back to the state, but on the proviso that my taxes are used in a fruitful manner. Handouts to lazy fcukers on the dole, no thanks. To help pay for retraining or employment schemes to assist in the return to work for the vast majority on the dole that want to get off it, actually get off it, then I'm cool with that.

What else we got?

To assist in the provision of care to those with a disability who cannot support themselves? As an ideal, am totally on board with that. Here are the most vulnerable in our society. Its not Mary & John with a bollix-big mortgage. This section of society really does depend on others to assist. Now.....strip away all the red tape, nonsense and total bull**** HSE bureaucracy that surrounds this and again, I'm totally on board.

Its not about greed, it about seeing my tax dollar being used in an appropriate way.

Equality is a great word. Once you float it out there, then there ain't no argument against it. If you attempt to argue the point, well then you must be greedy, stuck in your ways or against a just society. :rolleyes: Crapola of the highest degree in my book.

Permabear

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Permabear

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