United Left Alliance will form party, says Higgins

20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

The credit crunch came from reckless and blatant fraud on Wall St. This is even with the little regulation it has. Such behavior is inevitable when such large amounts of money can be made and no consequences for failure. The taxpayer ended up paying the bill. A few of those guys need to see the inside of a prison and try on an orange jumpsuit for this nonsense to end.
As for not bailing them out I suppose it fits with your ideology, the worldwide great depression, millions made unemployed massive increase in homelessness is just a side effect. At least we would have drugs and guns in libertarian land, just be sure not to get sick.
The market needs the state and the state need the market. They both rely on each other you can't have one without the other.

ei.sdraob

20Cent wrote: »

The credit crunch came from reckless and blatant fraud on Wall St. This is even with the little regulation it has. Such behavior is inevitable when such large amounts of money can be made and no consequences for failure. The taxpayer ended up paying the bill. A few of those guys need to see the inside of a prison and try on an orange jumpsuit for this nonsense to end.
As for not bailing them out I suppose it fits with your ideology, the worldwide great depression, millions made unemployed massive increase in homelessness is just a side effect. At least we would have drugs and guns in libertarian land, just be sure not to get sick.
The market needs the state and the state need the market. They both rely on each other you can't have one without the other.

Actually it came about due to reckless monetary policies of politically controlled central banks, but let that not stop you rant

Permabear

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CiaranC

ei.sdraob wrote: »

coveting and taking other peoples fruits of work is called thievery and laziness

How do you get through life without "taking other peoples fruits of work" then?

You are posting your brilliant ideas on the world wide web, on the internet. Did you design and build the world wide web or the internet? Did you invent TCP or IP or HTTP or any one of the routing protocols involved in moving your packets from one place to the other? Did you even contribute to this in any way at all?

(Permabear probably did invent the internet btw, in between learning the complete works of Shakespeare off by heart and single handedly replacing the entire state education system of Donegal)

No, they were all invented by non-profit, tax payer funded, and yes, socialist organisations - DARPA, CERN, IEEE, IETF and W3C.

Therefore, by posting on this thread you are coveting and taking other peoples fruits of work. So if you feel so strongly about taking things that other people worked to create, why hasnt this occurred to you before? Is it in fact because, like so many on the hypocritical right, when you do it its ok, but when someone else does it, its "theft".

Valmont

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

The only libertarians in Ireland would get about 3 votes were they all in the same constituency and got out all the vote. If you have more support, organise and lets see the results at election time.

It should be obvious to you why a libertarian candidate would do abysmally in Ireland.

For example, in 2007, every party was offering a whole host of freebies; a libertarian candidate would do no such thing, they would be looking to rein in government spending rather than buying their votes which obviously puts them at an incredible disadvantage when you have an electorate looking to grab what they can for themselves, regardless of the societal costs. The take-what-I-can-get-for-free (eg ULA) approach is infinitely more selfish, in the pejorative sense anyway, than any party or individual proposing to simply allow people to keep what the earn or produce themselves.

People will always vote for free things, that fact in itself is very favourable to a libertarian outlook considering how voting for freebies got the electorate into the mess it is now rightfully wallowing in.

ei.sdraob

CiaranC wrote: »

How do you get through life without "taking other peoples fruits of work" then?

by paying for things not by taxing the bejeasus out of the productive

CiaranC wrote: »

You are posting your brilliant ideas on the world wide web, on the internet. Did you design and build the world wide web or the internet? Did you invent TCP or IP or HTTP or any one of the routing protocols involved in moving your packets from one place to the other? Did you even contribute to this in any way at all?

(Permabear probably did invent the internet btw, in between learning the complete works of Shakespeare off by heart and single handedly replacing the entire state education system of Donegal)

No, they were all invented by non-profit, tax payer funded, and yes, socialist organisations - DARPA, CERN, IEEE, IETF and W3C.

Therefore, by posting on this thread you are coveting and taking other peoples fruits of work. So if you feel so strongly about taking things that other people worked to create, why hasnt this occurred to you before? Is it in fact because, like so many on the hypocritical right, when you do it its ok, but when someone else does it, its "theft".

Rewrite history much? the internet started as a military project who have deep pockets when it comes to hiring engineers and scientists, in later years blossomed into what we call the web thanks to private companies (who engaged in a classic bubble at one stage marking the dotcom bubble),

on this very page there are adverts and tracking from Google Ireland Ltd
the site itself is run by Boards Ltd using software made by vBulletin Solutions, Inc
using a programming language called PHP (which i use myself) which was helped to where it is by various companies such as Zend, Yahoo as well as open source volunteers seeking experience.

CiaranC

Valmont wrote: »

People will always vote for free things, that fact in itself is very favourable to a libertarian outlook considering how voting for freebies got the electorate into the mess it is now rightfully wallowing in.

:rolleyes:

Childish, simplistic, rubbish and an insult to the intelligence of every voter in our nation.

Nobody believes that anything is "free",they fully understand that it is paid for through taxation. That is how we have built our societies in every nation on earth for the entire history of mankind.

Nobody would vote libertarian, or ever has voted libertarian in any great number, because it is absurd, unworkable, intellectually feeble and contrary to human nature.

Permabear

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CiaranC

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Rewrite history much? the internet started as a military project who have deep pockets when it comes to hiring engineers and scientists, in later years blossomed into what we call the web thanks to private companies (who engaged in a classic bubble at one stage marking the dotcom bubble)

I have news for you, a military, particularly one which was running forced conscription at the time of DARPAs founding, is the purest expression of socialism on earth.

So are you going to answer the question? Why are you stealing the fruits of DARPA, CERN, IEEE, IETF and the W3C?

ei.sdraob

CiaranC wrote: »

I have news for you, a military, particularly one which was running forced conscription at the time of DARPAs founding, is the purest expression of socialism on earth.

So are you going to answer the question? Why are you stealing the fruits of DARPA, CERN, IEEE, IETF and the W3C?

Militaries are "socialist" now
Highly authoritarian, yes but socialist? I think you a clutching at straws now.


The internet is a byproduct of research into how to survive a nuclear holocaust, just like many many technologies since the beginning of time that are a product of the human quest to kill each other more efficiently.
edit: perfecting the art of murdering people is something that socialists have done a great job of during the 20th century...

Permabear

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CiaranC

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Militaries are "socialist" now

Jesus, you are on the internet arguing against socialism and you dont even know what it is.

Simple question. Maybe youll answer this one. Who pays for the Irish Defence Forces?

hoorsmelt

For Christ's sake. The level of knowledge here about what the ULA actually stands for is abysmal. So where to start?

1. The ULA did not campaign on a programme of giving 'freebies' or the kind of pork-barrel politics FF and the others specialise in. The core plank of ULA policy was that there needed to be a programme of public works and reskilling to get people back to work and help the long-term unemployed or surplus construction workers (not pejorative- there are too many people in this country with skills in construction, which aren't needed) find jobs. If some people think this is 'freebies' politics, then quite frankly there's no reasoning with them.

2. The ULA is not actually a 'trotskyite' organisation. The SP is a trotskyist party, but PBPA isn't and neither is the TWUAG.

3. Parties of the kind being proposed have actually had success on the continent- Die Linke, the German Left Party, has been quite successful, while other groups which made an impact include the NPA in France and Syriza in Greece.

As for wealth-creation, there's a difference between profits and wealth. Permabear has said he's a speculator/stockbroker, so preumably he thinks he's some kind of wealth creator superior to Richard Boyd Barrett or any of the others in the ULA. However, he's not creating wealth, he's involved in manipulating it. The real wealth in society is the goods and services created by ordinary working class people, who create the clothes, build the houses, and process the foods that we consume.

Rubik.

Valmont wrote: »

It should be obvious to you why a libertarian candidate would do abysmally in Ireland.

For example, in 2007, every party was offering a whole host of freebies; a libertarian candidate would do no such thing, they would be looking to rein in government spending rather than buying their votes which obviously puts them at an incredible disadvantage when you have an electorate looking to grab what they can for themselves, regardless of the societal costs. The take-what-I-can-get-for-free (eg ULA) approach is infinitely more selfish, in the pejorative sense anyway, than any party or individual proposing to simply allow people to keep what the earn or produce themselves.

People will always vote for free things, that fact in itself is very favourable to a libertarian outlook considering how voting for freebies got the electorate into the mess it is now rightfully wallowing in.

That's a real - it's not us, it's you agruement i.e, it's not our philosophy thats preventing it gaining any widespread appeal, it's you and your statist ways. Libertarianism is rejected by all but a miniscule minority because the vast majority don't accept it as the way things should be done. To blame the majority because you would be unable to convince enough of them to elect even one libertarian candidate is a bit of a cop out really. It's a bit like saying, it's not FF's fault they lost over 50 seats, its the voters fault because they didn't vote for them.

c_man

As has been said, after recent years you would expect such a grouping as the ULA to do better. Posters around town have been triumphanting the "collapse of capitalism" since Sep. 2008 but the people obviously don't think so! There is a limit to what such a hard-left party can actually achieve (seat wise) in Ireland and I reckon between themselves and the Shinners they have nearly reached it.

While I may disagree with their policies entirely, I wish them luck. They've been given a democratic mandate and hopefully they put it to good use.

Fallschirmjager

CiaranC wrote: »

How do you get through life without "taking other peoples fruits of work" then?

You are posting your brilliant ideas on the world wide web, on the internet. Did you design and build the world wide web or the internet? Did you invent TCP or IP or HTTP or any one of the routing protocols involved in moving your packets from one place to the other? Did you even contribute to this in any way at all?

[edit....]

No, they were all invented by non-profit, tax payer funded, and yes, socialist organisations - DARPA, CERN, IEEE, IETF and W3C.

Therefore, by posting on this thread you are coveting and taking other peoples fruits of work. So if you feel so strongly about taking things that other people worked to create, why hasnt this occurred to you before? Is it in fact because, like so many on the hypocritical right, when you do it its ok, but when someone else does it, its "theft".

er...darpa...as in darpa.MIL...the defense advanced research projects agency?

unfortunately for al gore the internet was developed by DARPA. Darpa is part of the US defense dept and i quote from their website

'DARPA’s mission is to maintain the technological superiority of the U.S. military and prevent technological surprise from harming our national security by sponsoring revolutionary, high-payoff research bridging the gap between fundamental discoveries and their military use'

Defense is the right of every country on earth and doesnt matter if you are nutty left, right or even libertarian...you pay for defense. it is also interesting to note DARPA has remained relevant by limiting it size and tenure. what a pity the rest of govt could not learn a lesson there.

as for the comment by posting on the web i am stealing others wealth. No. i am paying for an internet conenction as i should. That in turn pays for investment in the infrastructure. I can choose the most affordable package for me. They are using international standards that companies conform to ensure profitablility because you choose their product over someone elses. You dont honestly believe that browser you are viewing this post on is free do you? No its not, its a sales technique, why do you think Microsoft got in trouble over netscape?

Did you notice something else about all those standards...they are from the non communist west during the cold war. Interesting that isnt it?

you dont take other people fruit of their work, unless you are government of course, then you legalise it and call it taxes...but i digress. what you do is decide which is the most appropriate solution for you that you can AFFORD and let those companies compete for your money. We have tried the other way since the 1890's, where we pick winners...kind of like the irish banks, but i think we see AGAIN that it fails. The siren call of socialism has crashed every country it has come into contact with. at what point do we say..maybe it isnt us, maybe, it just a piece of **** theory that doesnt work. but of course that would mean politicians (the hollywood for the ugly) would be almost irrelevant and we could not have that. every one wants to have their glorious 15 minutes of fame. so this time now, let me guess it will be different, its not that we spend more then we earn, nope, this time it will be really really different (because we mean it this time). we can continue as is by taxing more and more and while we are at it throw in a group to hate (call them rich or privileged or whatever) and blame them. Of course they will need 2 or 3 terms to 'get it right' and you will need to give up just a little liberty and a lot more tax for everyones welfare and when it doesnt work AGAIN, the next round of lefties will be back here telling us all 'how different the next time will be'.

Now i wonder when will govt realise, the Irish citizenry can solve this crisis if the govt would just do us all one small itsy-bitsy favour...and thats get the fuk out of the way. No one is arguing that you dont need government, you do. no one is arguing you dont need taxes, you do but they should be small, in fact so small that it inhibits govt growth because it is the natural effect that govt grows unless we stop it by limiting the oxygen it needs..namely money.

The solution to these issues does not lie in the dail. it will lie with the citizens of this country. the firststep is to ensure doing the best for you and your family is not something to be despised or frowned upon. we are all not the same..no matter what the moronic 'people before profits' or the ULA say. here is a really sad fact to learn, companies do not exist to give you healthcare and a wage. you would be amazed how many in govt dont know that but then again i could count on one hand how many of them have actually ever worked outside govt.

but of course, i am wrong...let me guess...this time ..it really is different...'

CiaranC

Fallschirmjager wrote: »

er...darpa...as in darpa.MIL...the defense advanced research projects agency?

unfortunately for al gore the internet was developed by DARPA. Darpa is part of the US defense dept and i quote from their website

'DARPA’s mission is to maintain the technological superiority of the U.S. military and prevent technological surprise from harming our national security by sponsoring revolutionary, high-payoff research bridging the gap between fundamental discoveries and their military use'

YES

DARPA, created, administrated and funded by and as an agency of the United States Department of Defense, part of the UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT, paid for and funded directly by TAXATION of the CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES, not for creating profit or wealth or jobs, or of making anyone rich, or for any other motive other than as a massively expensive, hugely loss-making instrument of protection of ALL OF ITS CITIZENS. As simple an expression of redistribution of wealth for the benefit of all as you will find.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

Defense is the right of every country on earth and doesnt matter if you are nutty left, right or even libertarian...you pay for defense. it is also interesting to note DARPA has remained relevant by limiting it size and tenure. what a pity the rest of govt could not learn a lesson there.

Ah of course, libertarianism right up to the point where its not practical, then its back to socialism again. Just like in the financial markets. The true calling card of libertarianism.

as for the comment by posting on the web i am stealing others wealth. No. i am paying for an internet conenction as i should.

You paying Eircom or whoever for an internet connection has no relation whatsoever to creating the standards and technologies which made the internet possible.

Every single thing we do in life is built on the work of others who came before us. the generations of humanity who worked to move humanity forward, to which we contributed NOTHING. Libertarianism conveniently forgets this, otherwise we would be reinventing the wheel and rediscovering fire every 50 years.

Dr Galen

CiaranC

I really think you are flogging the proverbial dead horsey here. I can understand the point you are trying to make, but using the US Military and especially DARPA for the fundamentals of your argument is flawed. I suggest you have a look at much of the history of both organisations tbh and come back then.

Permabear

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Valmont

Rubik. wrote: »

That's a real - it's not us, it's you agruement i.e, it's not our philosophy thats preventing it gaining any widespread appeal, it's you and your statist ways. Libertarianism is rejected by all but a miniscule minority because the vast majority don't accept it as the way things should be done. To blame the majority because you would be unable to convince enough of them to elect even one libertarian candidate is a bit of a cop out really. It's a bit like saying, it's not FF's fault they lost over 50 seats, its the voters fault because they didn't vote for them.

No, it's the fact that politicians regularly buy elections through the provision of welfare for the masses or legislative favours for their cronies and lobby groups. That a political party who decides to not buy their votes would do worse should seem quite obvious, no?

I'm honestly quite amused that some posters are finding it hard to believe that the same electorate who voted FF back into power in 2007 on the back of one of the greatest giveaways the world has ever seen, would possibly vote for a political party who would propose to give away as little as possible.

Money talks and the Irish electorate demonstrated that very well voting for FF in 2007.

CiaranC, if people really do understand that everything is paid for through taxation, why did they vote for FF and their insanely ridiculous policies that were doomed to destroy our economy as soon as the property bubble burst? Is it perhaps because they were myopically looking at what the could get for themselves in short term? I find it funny that you would overestimate the intelligence of the same electorate who brought us to where we are today. Blame whoever you want, but it was the people who voted for the nonsense policies that have us right where we are.

All this considered, it's bizarre that the ULA think we can all set to work in government projects and be happy for ever after with our shovels and spades.

CiaranC

Im fully aware of the history of ARPANET. Without federal taxpayer funding, it would not and could not have happened.

Permabear

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CiaranC

Permabear wrote: »

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The efficient allocation of capital and smooth operation of pricing mechanisms, eh? Your markets have just smoothly and efficiently bankrupted the entire western world. Yet somehow this is not the fault of those in the markets, but of ex-capitalist communists in central banks who gave the markets too much money to efficiently and smoothly allocate.

You really do live on another planet.

Nodin

CiaranC wrote: »

Im fully aware of the history of ARPANET. Without federal taxpayer funding, it would not and could not have happened.

taxation/state backed enterprise=/=socialism....it rather precedes it, by a millenia or three

rokossovsky

I was quite interested when I heard of the formation of ULA. Then I heard Richard Boyd Barrett on the RTE radio leaders programme. He couldnt answer basic queries about his own policies (eg the cost of captilalising the proposed good bank). He was spoofing to beat the band. At one pont he suggested a dig out from the Irish state to Pfizer to support jobs in Dun Laoghaire!! Pfizer - a company that could buy Ireland and still have some change left! Some socialist?
Now we have double jobbing Joe Higgins in the Dail. So now he will 'pass on'' the European Parliament seat he won to someone elso that we the electorate never had a chance to vote on. Some democrat!
They will be loud but I dont anticipate much of a contribution from this lot.
Between Higgins, Boyd Barrett, and O Caolain that high-horse is going to have its back broken.

Nodin

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Like the whole telecom bubble...the dot.com bubble....the housing bubble...

CiaranC

Nodin wrote: »

taxation=/=socialism....it rather precedes it, by a millenia or three

What? Taxation is the modern vehicle by which socialism allocates the resources it takes from one element of society to redistribute to another. Obviously they are not directly equivalent.

Neither could the Space Shuttle, the Olympics, or the M50. That does not make these things socialist achievements.

If a group of people pay a proportion of their income into a central fund, administered by a central administration, which then takes that funding and pays people directly from that fund to build a road, that, to you, is not even a little bit socialist. LOL.

You are a fantasist who has created an alternative reality for himself.

You know, its a sunny afternoon, Im off to "steal" some of the Phoenix Park instead of arguing with you all :pac:

Rubik.

Valmont wrote: »

No, it's the fact that politicians regularly buy elections through the provision of welfare for the masses or legislative favours for their cronies and lobby groups. That a political party who decides to not buy their votes would do worse should seem quite obvious, no?

It's not obvious to me anyway, I think the the problem is with Libertarianism in itself and it's all too easy to blame the electorate because they won't buy into your political philosophy. Maybe, just maybe, it's your philosophy that is at fault. It's a bit pointless have a political movement that has no chance of appealing to the masses.

johngalway

They will comfortably beat Sinn Fein into the ha'penny place as the most po faced party in Ireland. Even describing them as a "party" feels wrong, sullies the word

Permabear

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