United Left Alliance will form party, says Higgins

Duke Leonal Felmet

K-9 wrote: »

What usually happens as part of a constructive discussion is that you would add your own figures now, if you are interested in one, that is.

What ones did you offer again? Oh right those kind of 'figures', how impolite of me.

Ahem.

Ireland will reduce social welfare by a third and will pay back their debt on the 23rd of April 2012, around teatime, before Home and Away.

Clearly.

K-9

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

How impolite of me.

Thanks.

the groutch

Chinasea wrote: »

Richard Boyd Barretts supporters are a militant shower of either track suit wearing or dock martin wearing non contributing social welfare dependents. Vast majority of them never worked either - now they are conveniently blaming everything including the kitchen sink for the state of the country and will hide behind this convenient factor to dodge working for another few decades.

It is hard to know what the Boyd Barretts agenda is - champion of the militant non working and non contributing.

do you know this from being friends with lots of RBB supporters who fit this exact description? or are you just creating a stereotype based on a few of his policies.

dsmythy

The fact that nearly all the ULA people are described as "personalities" should give an indication as to how them being officially in the same boat will end.

hoorsmelt

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

FF spending orgy...lol. They were campaigning against the obscenity of cutting the dole, minimum wage, services and lower paid PS workers while the state was bailing out private entreprise to the tune of tens of billions. There's a difference between that and splashing out money for a giant community centre in the backarse of nowhere a la John O'Donoghue etc.

The Socialist Party is part of the ULA. Richard Boyd Barrett, who seems to be the self-appointed leader, or at least deputy leader, is a self-identified Trotskyite.

Yeah, but they're only constituent parts, not the whole. The ULA itself is not a trotskyist organisation. How hard is that for people to understand?

That's a bit simplistic. Most of our clothing we wear and the food we eat originates from abroad. As for building houses—well, you saw how that worked out. :rolleyes:

Doesn't matter where they're made, they're still wealth as they have a use value.

Investors and so-called "speculators" contribute to the efficient allocation of capital and the smooth operation of pricing mechanisms, which are of inestimable value in any modern economy.

What like this :rolleyes:

http://www.cattlenetwork.com/cattle-news/latest/EU-links-rising-food-prices-to-commodities-speculation.html

Speculators, in cahoots with developers and the banks, were largely responsible for the rise in land prices during the Celtic Tiger which drove house prices out of the reach of ordinary working class people. Now that's dried up they're moving on to food, and are preying on the worlds most vulnerable by hoarding supplies to increase their own profit margins. That's not a very efficient way of securing supplies nor is it an 'efficient allocation of capital'.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Sigh. Once again someone must point out the contradictory claims of the left. If you took the route of letting our banking system fall and burning those who lend us two out of every five euro that goes into peoples dole cheque, then you implicitly cut welfare.

Can anyone of you do basic arithmetic?

OhNoYouDidn't

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Sigh. Once again someone must point out the contradictory claims of the left. If you took the route of letting our banking system fall and burning those who lend us two out of every five euro that goes into peoples dole cheque, then you implicitly cut welfare.

Can anyone of you do basic arithmetic?

Someone must also point out that a leaving cert Economics student knows thats a load of scaremongering arse.

p1akuw47h5r3it

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

So are the libertarians on this thread - the only two in Ireland - in favour of State Education. Or not?

I'm a libertarian too so make that 3 please.

Duke Leonal Felmet

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Someone must also point out that a leaving cert Economics student knows thats a load of scaremongering arse.

Wow, a baseless statement. Cheers. I guess my masters degree in Economics makes me overqualifed to see such 'scaremongering', comrade. A leaving cert understanding is the best I have seen on this forum, to date. And thats being generous.

OhNoYouDidn't

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Wow, a baseless statement. Cheers. I guess my masters degree in Economics makes me overqualifed to see such 'scaremongering', comrade. A leaving cert understanding is the best I have seen on this forum, to date. And thats being generous.

1: I also have a masters in Economics. But it appears I was listening when they did the financial markets bit

2: I'm not your comrade.

Rabble Rabble

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Militaries are "socialist" now
Highly authoritarian, yes but socialist? I think you a clutching at straws now.


The internet is a byproduct of research into how to survive a nuclear holocaust, just like many many technologies since the beginning of time that are a product of the human quest to kill each other more efficiently.
edit: perfecting the art of murdering people is something that socialists have done a great job of during the 20th century...

Lets replace Socialist with Statist. Then continue your "logic".

Rabble Rabble

Lefticus Loonaticus wrote: »

A center right government with a center left party in it, only on our demented island would such a thing be possable.
.

Well, and the um, neighbouring one.

Rabble Rabble

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I'm sorry if you're coming at this from a different context. From my own context, amongst college students, not desiring the government to provide for me puts me in a minority of about 5%.

So you will be paying about 60,000 pounds back to the governemnt for primary, secondary, and (now) tertiary education?


Good man.

Rabble Rabble

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Sigh. Once again someone must point out the contradictory claims of the left. If you took the route of letting our banking system fall and burning those who lend us two out of every five euro that goes into peoples dole cheque, then you implicitly cut welfare.

Can anyone of you do basic arithmetic?

You are mistaking , once again - sovereign bond lenders with people who invested in banks. The former will lend to us if we didn't have the latter guaranteed. In fact Irelands deficit for day to day spending at 18B, is about 10% of GDP. Nothing to spook sovereign bond sellers the way they have been spooked. This is remedial stuff.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

You are mistaking , once again - sovereign bond lenders with people who invested in banks. The former will lend to us if we didn't have the latter guaranteed. In fact Irelands deficit for day to day spending at 18B, is about 10% of GDP. Nothing to spook sovereign bond sellers the way they have been spooked. This is remedial stuff.

More babble babble from rabble rabble.

Rabble Rabble

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Wow, a baseless statement. Cheers. I guess my masters degree in Economics makes me overqualifed to see such 'scaremongering', comrade. A leaving cert understanding is the best I have seen on this forum, to date. And thats being generous.

Lol. You seem to be the one who confused the banks debts with sovereign debt.

Not that anybody with a real scientific degree would rate Economics - like most social sciences it produces ideologues, not scientists. ( As clear here). Although mostly the ideologues are on the left.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

Lol. You seem to be the one who confused the banks debts with sovereign debt.

Not that anybody with a real scientific degree would rate Economics - like most social sciences it produces ideologues, not scientists. ( As clear here). Although mostly the ideologues are on the left.

Nice grammar.

Rabble Rabble

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

More babble babble from rabble rabble.

Nope. I called you on your statement. Lets say what you said.

If you took the route of letting our banking system fall and burning those who lend us two out of every five euro that goes into peoples dole cheque, then you implicitly cut welfare.

Thats clearly confusing the bank debt with the sovereign debt.

Masters? Lol.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

Nope. I called you on your statement. Lets say what you said.

If you took the route of letting our banking system fall and burning those who lend us two out of every five euro that goes into peoples dole cheque, then you implicitly cut welfare.

Thats clearly confusing the bank debt with the sovereign debt.

Masters? Lol.

I'm enjoying watching this.

Rabble Rabble

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

I'm enjoying watching this.

I'm not, the fact that you have even gotten to undergraduate level in Economics - or frankly, knitting - is appalling.

All we are getting here is sneering. Let me sneer back. I have a degree in Masters in Engineering and a degree in Physics. Both from renowned universities, none Irish.

Now that we are done with credentialism - lets actually address the fact that you are too stupid to understand the difference between Sovereign and Bank debt.

( I know that he Irish education system has dumbed down, but really? That much?)

Rabble Rabble

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Nice grammar.

Thanks. I agree it was.

Now, let's explain how you ever got into university.

Duke Leonal Felmet

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

I'm not, the fact that you have even gotten to undergraduate level in Economics - or frankly, knitting - is appalling.

All we are getting here is sneering. Let me sneer back. I have a degree in Masters in Engineering and a degree in Physics. Both from renowned universities, none Irish.

Now that we are done with credentialism - lets actually address the fact that you are too stupid to understand the difference between Sovereign and Bank debt.

( I know that he Irish education system has dumbed down, but really? That much?)

Reported.

Rabble Rabble

Duke Leonal Felmet wrote: »

Reported.

Lol. Reported in lieu of answering the question?

Duke Leonal Felmet

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

Lol. Reported in lieu of answering the question?

The fact that you needed to resort to personal attacks speaks volumes of your position. I suggest you stick to what you are good at (engineering, I presume), because you don't seem to understand what you think you know about economics (which is something I encounter frequently on this forum).

Eliot Rosewater

Duke Leonal Felmet banned for a week for trolling.

Regardless of his behaviour, there is no excuse for lashing back. If you've a problem with a post or a poster report them and leave the mods to deal with it.

/mod.

doopa

To be honest - I think this thread needs rebooting. With the libertarian stuff siphoned off to a separate thread - where I would like to see it continue.

So like - red bashing to one side and then (what colour are libertarians?) bashing to the other. Or are both parts of this thread unsalvagable?

Amhran Nua

doopa wrote: »

To be honest - I think this thread needs rebooting. With the libertarian stuff siphoned off to a separate thread - where I would like to see it continue.

So like - red bashing to one side and then (what colour are libertarians?) bashing to the other. Or are both parts of this thread unsalvagable?

It was pretty much going to be inevitable from the start, and that's the direction it would go in any thread, but this is politics, and this is what politics involves. I'm finding the whole thing quite fascinating tbh.

On topic, the main problem most people have with the far left is their adherence to some very dated philosophies, which even when they were fresh and shiny demonstrably had no final joining of the dots, because it was not possible to do so.

Marx was trying to create a movement to throw down a cabal of extremely nasty characters, and he succeeded in doing so, but even he went a bit wobbly on how his utopia was to be reached. Bottom line is, it can't as a final destination for society; it just does not work. It works great if all you're trying to do is knock the stuffing out of some inbred aristocrats plus hired muscle however. Another example of a carefully crafted and engineered self perpetuating social movement, albeit one without an altruistic core, would be Scientology.

By dragging on Marxism, Communism, Trotskyism, Maoism, whatever you're having yourself ism far beyond their natural lifespan, the hard left are chasing their own tails and doing no good at all. The world has moved on, move on with it. And before accusations about right wingers begin, I've made my own feelings on hard Libertarianism quite clear on many occasions.

I don't expect to change any minds with an internet post, I do agree they will fade away at the next election, however.

hoorsmelt

Amhran Nua wrote: »

It was pretty much going to be inevitable from the start, and that's the direction it would go in any thread, but this is politics, and this is what politics involves. I'm finding the whole thing quite fascinating tbh.

On topic, the main problem most people have with the far left is their adherence to some very dated philosophies, which even when they were fresh and shiny demonstrably had no final joining of the dots, because it was not possible to do so.

Marx was trying to create a movement to throw down a cabal of extremely nasty characters, and he succeeded in doing so, but even he went a bit wobbly on how his utopia was to be reached. Bottom line is, it can't as a final destination for society; it just does not work. It works great if all you're trying to do is knock the stuffing out of some inbred aristocrats plus hired muscle however. Another example of a carefully crafted and engineered self perpetuating social movement, albeit one without an altruistic core, would be Scientology.

By dragging on Marxism, Communism, Trotskyism, Maoism, whatever you're having yourself ism far beyond their natural lifespan, the hard left are chasing their own tails and doing no good at all. The world has moved on, move on with it. And before accusations about right wingers begin, I've made my own feelings on hard Libertarianism quite clear on many occasions.

I don't expect to change any minds with an internet post, I do agree they will fade away at the next election, however.

The thing is mate, no socialist I know believes in creating a utopia or that a perfect society is possible. It ain't. Mankind is incapable of creating a perfect system where everyone will be perfectly happy or where everything will function without a hiccup. What is possible though, and what we fight for, is a world where the economy is run more sustainably and more equitably. That is to say where the economy is run for the benefit of all, and where profit isn't a barrier to doing things that need to be done, as it is at present. That's my tuppence worth, and the ideas of the various currents of marxism (be they leninist or otherwise) are essentially tactical as they deal in what is the best way to achieve an optimum society under the present conditions.

ei.sdraob

You know whats wrong with socialism?
people who dont know how to bake pies trying to slice the pie more "equally"

they should be concentrating on how to grow the pie for all and learn how to bake

hoorsmelt

ei.sdraob wrote: »

You know whats wrong with socialism?
people who dont know how to bake pies trying to slice the pie more "equally"

they should be concentrating on how to grow the pie for all and learn how to bake

For socialists the question isn't about 'slicing the pie', it's about who owns the bakery. If the bakery were publicly owned, then bread could be baked for everyone rather than for the profits of a small minority.