Chelsea V Manchester United (Tuesday 1st March K.O 19.45 SS2)

keane2097

The Muppet wrote: »

Meh it's a game of two halfs, we should have had more of a cushion at half time had we taken our chances.

Chelsea certainly edged the second half but they still needed a very dubious decision to win it, it was never a pen , Smallings feet were both on the ground when yer man fell over.

We were on top from about 20 mins to 45 mins.

Chelsea were marginally better in the first twenty minutes and totally dominated the second half.

I thought it was a pretty clear penalty too, while they also had Torres' goal disallowed for pretty much nothing.

Sgt Pepper 64

The Muppet wrote: »

I wasn't complaining just giving my appraisal of the game. United fans on the whole are not really into the whole conspiracy theory approach, we realise refs are only human and can get decisions wrong. We know they don't have to be corrupt for that to happen.:)


Chelsea upped their game second half, I don't thinkm our performance deterioirated all that much tbh. I still think no 19 is looking good for this year

I cant see you NOT winning it, you can even lose another game I reckon.
You just came up against a Chelsea team that is rebuilding, and is desperate to get CL football next season. You wont find any chelsea supporter who believes they can actually win the title.
Arsenal are your only threat, but then they are a threat to themselves.
You can see how thin their squad is. Lose Fab, Verm and Van Persie and they struggle, whereas you know you can call on Giggs and Scoles.
Enjoy the run in and see ya next year

SlickRic

The Muppet wrote: »

United fans on the whole are not really into the whole conspiracy theory approach, we realise refs are only human and can get decisions wrong. We know they don't have to be corrupt for that to happen

let's be honest, if Liverpool had been in Utd's position last night, and a Liverpool fan had given the following appraisal...

The Muppet wrote: »

ref had a very poor game , not a pen imo, we should have had a pen for
Terry's hand ball.

you'd have jumped on us for all manner of things, assuming we were calling refs corrupt...

...don't you be acting all diplomatic now

i can't see Utd letting it go to be fair. Arsenal haven't shown enough in the last few years to suggest they can do it over the run in, plus they're missing 3 of their biggest impact players, with especially RVP being a huge miss.

if Utd play like they did 1st half on Sunday, Liverpool will have to up their game considerably on the last couple of performances to compete. if the United of the 2nd half show up, then i'd be very disappointed if we didn't get close to beating you, or at the very least getting a point.

God help you if the Lucas of the two Chelsea games turns up...:D;)

Cantona's Collars

Our second half showing was extremely poor,we had a great platform to build on but simply let Chelsea bully us for the second half.Carrick showed that he can't step up when things are going against the team-even Ramires out tackled him ffs.Won't complain about the ref,we never get decisions against Chelsea so expected what happened last night.
On a lighter note David Luiz has a part time job hosting RTE JR. Check him out after 11am.:)

The Muppet

keane2097 wrote: »

I thought it was a pretty clear penalty too, while they also had Torres' goal disallowed for pretty much nothing.

Smallings feet were on the ground, at worse he was causing obstruction which should have resulted in an indirect free kick.

Play had stopped for Torres goal

The Muppet

SlickRic wrote: »

let's be honest, if Liverpool had been in Utd's position last night, and a Liverpool fan had given the following appraisal...



you'd have jumped on us for all manner of things, assuming we were calling refs corrupt...

...don't you be acting all diplomatic now

Now slick you know well theres a big difference between saying a Ref had a poor game (which he did) and calling him corrupt .;)

keane2097

The Muppet wrote: »

Smallings feet were on the ground, at worse he was causing obstruction which should have resulted in an indirect free kick.

Luiz's feet were on the ground when he took Rooney out of it, it was still a deliberate trip.

The Muppet wrote: »

Play had stopped for Torres goal

The whistle blowing had no effect on the subsequent play. It would have been a goal and should have been a goal.

The Muppet

keane2097 wrote: »

Luiz's feet were on the ground when he took Rooney out of it, it was still a deliberate trip.



The whistle blowing had no effect on the subsequent play. It would have been a goal and should have been a goal.

VDS stopped playing on the whistle did he not? So how can you claim blowing the whistle had no effect on the subsequent play.

The free out was given for jersey tugging which is a foul.

Devil08

keane2097 wrote: »

Luiz's feet were on the ground when he took Rooney out of it, it was still a deliberate trip.



The whistle blowing had no effect on the subsequent play. It would have been a goal and should have been a goal.

Luiz stuck his foot out to trip Rooney. what are you talking about?

Smalling had both feet rooted to the ground beside each other. The player ran into him and went down.

keane2097

Devil08 wrote: »

Luiz stuck his foot out to trip Rooney. what are you talking about?

I'm making the point that by the time the tackle was made both of Luiz's feet were on the ground and that this does not preclude the incident from being what it clearly was - a trip.

Devil08 wrote: »

Smalling had both feet rooted to the ground beside each other. The player ran into him and went down.

I'm not convinced of this.

Anyway, I think it's pretty clear that on possession, territory, chances and general balance of play Chelsea were the better team last night. It wasn't particularly close either.

Nalz

keano_afc wrote: »

Just spend 25 mins reading this thread. Better get back to work. Its been great though.

As an Arsenal fan, thank you Chelsea. LOL at United fans giving out about the dodgy decisions. I've been watching football a very long time, your team gets FAR more than any other. Get over it.

Lol, it gets highlighted more because its united. Like when weinger apparently constantly says 'I didn't see it' to reporters. Gets highlighted more cas its arsenal.


I will say tho, the decisions utd got v Liverpool in cup, blackpool and west brom are now evened out with the Chelsea sunderland and Birmingham games.

On fone apols for typos

Devil08

keane2097 wrote: »

I'm making the point that by the time the tackle was made both of Luiz's feet were on the ground and that this does not preclude the incident from being what it clearly was - a trip.



I'm not convinced of this.

Anyway, I think it's pretty clear that on possession, territory, chances and general balance of play Chelsea were the better team last night. It wasn't particularly close either.

Do you think they would have dominated if they had 10 men for the last 30 mins of the game like they should have? It would have been a different game.
I dont think Chelsea dominated the game anyway, we were better in first half, they were better in second. Wasnt too much in it IMO.

The Muppet

keane2097 wrote: »

I'm not convinced of this.

Anyway, I think it's pretty clear that on possession, territory, chances and general balance of play Chelsea were the better team last night. It wasn't particularly close either.

What channel was this game on? I was watching the one on sky.

SlickRic

The Muppet wrote: »

Now slick you know well theres a big difference between saying a Ref had a poor game (which he did) and calling him corrupt .;)

obviously.

and i've seen as many Utd fans call Atkinson dodgy as Liverpool fans call Webb dodgy.

you get these fans in all fan bases; it's not unique to one club.

smuckers

It was a peno if you stick out your leg like Smalling did you're asking for trouble.
A game of 2 halves, Zhirkov should start ahead of Malouda, he has lost some pace.

Ush1

Anybody else think Luiz's yellow was a tad harsh? Was it for accumulated fouls?

karma_

I didn't see the incident, but it was a definite penalty, no question!

Emelio

Difficult for Manchester to win without midfield.
I hope Manchester meet Barcelona - only this will convince Glazer of need to build new team.

Jax Teller

Emelio wrote: »

Difficult for Manchester to win without midfield.
I hope Manchester meet Barcelona - only this will convince Glazer of need to build new team.

Like should have happened when they beat us 2 years ago nearly ?

Warper

smuckers wrote: »

It was a peno if you stick out your leg like Smalling did you're asking for trouble.
A game of 2 halves, Zhirkov should start ahead of Malouda, he has lost some pace.

I dont think it was a peno myself, Smalling barely moved while Zhirkov went into him.

Agree about Malouda, he looked like he didnt care last night. He just let people run past him without tracking and was awful on the ball with some horrendous crosses. He needs to be dropped prompto.

nicklauski

keane2097 wrote: »

The whistle blowing had no effect on the subsequent play. It would have been a goal and should have been a goal.

The fact that the keeper stopped and Evra ran out from the back post was the effect. The whistle went, the only one that kept playing was Torres.

LostinBlanch

Ush1 wrote: »

Anybody else think Luiz's yellow was a tad harsh? Was it for accumulated fouls?

Absolutely not, he deserved to walk, but with Atkinson that was never going to happen. I mean just look at his record for refereeing Chelsea matches, taken from another forum.

Referee Mr. Martin Atkinson's record for Chelsea: P-16 W-15 D-1 L-0 F-38 A-2.

LostinBlanch

Emelio wrote: »

Difficult for Manchester to win without midfield.
I hope Manchester meet Barcelona - only this will convince Glazer of need to build new team.

You think the gimps care? All they care about is how much money to steal from the club. :mad:

Warper

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Absolutely not, he deserved to walk, but with Atkinson that was never going to happen. I mean just look at his record for refereeing Chelsea matches, taken from another forum.

Referee Mr. Martin Atkinson's record for Chelsea: P-16 W-15 D-1 L-0 F-38 A-2.

Since we are talking refs'

Clattenburgs record when reffing Utd matches are: Utd stats: Wins 18, D 0, L 0, F-52, A-4

fkiely

A definite penalty in my eyes. Zhirkov (sp) played the ball behind Smalling who stopped him from reaching it. Wasn't cynical and there wasn't much Smalling could do but a penalty it certainly was. Can't see how people are saying otherwise to be honest.

keano_afc

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Absolutely not, he deserved to walk, but with Atkinson that was never going to happen. I mean just look at his record for refereeing Chelsea matches, taken from another forum.

Referee Mr. Martin Atkinson's record for Chelsea: P-16 W-15 D-1 L-0 F-38 A-2.

As has also been quoted, its up there with Webb's record in charge of United games.

Essien

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Absolutely not, he deserved to walk, but with Atkinson that was never going to happen. I mean just look at his record for refereeing Chelsea matches, taken from another forum.

Referee Mr. Martin Atkinson's record for Chelsea: P-16 W-15 D-1 L-0 F-38 A-2.

Pathetic stuff.

Sure while we're on the subject, here's a quote from this forum, it's on this page in fact, thought I'm sure you conveniently missed it....

Xavi6 wrote: »

Howard Webb - 10 United games, 9 United wins, 5 penalties

parker kent

I see the childish tit for tat of refereeing records is still happening. All they prove is that good teams tend to win games.

SlickRic

parker kent wrote: »

I see the childish tit for tat of refereeing records is still happening. All they prove is that good teams tend to win games.

and that members of ALL fan bases believe there's some sort of conspiracy against their teams at times

keane2097

The Muppet wrote: »

What channel was this game on? I was watching the one on sky.

How drole. It's cleverer than you usually are though, I'll give you that.

Stolen anyone's blog posts and passed them off as your own lately?

Ush1

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Absolutely not, he deserved to walk, but with Atkinson that was never going to happen. I mean just look at his record for refereeing Chelsea matches, taken from another forum.

Referee Mr. Martin Atkinson's record for Chelsea: P-16 W-15 D-1 L-0 F-38 A-2.

I think Luizs yellow was a bit harsh is all.

Panthro

SlickRic wrote: »

and that members of ALL fan bases believe there's some sort of conspiracy against their teams at times

Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me!:pac:

parker kent

SlickRic wrote: »

and that members of ALL fan bases believe there's some sort of conspiracy against their teams at times

Very true. Except MY team, there really is a conspiracy theory against them :pac:

VW 1

keane2097 wrote: »

Luiz's feet were on the ground when he took Rooney out of it, it was still a deliberate trip.



The whistle blowing had no effect on the subsequent play. It would have been a goal and should have been a goal.

.

Edit: point was argued out after I made my reply

Anyone got a video of the penalty incident ?

adox

The only two decisions I thought the ref got badly wrong were Luiz challenge on Rooney and his one on Hernandez. Both yellow cards imo and he could have walked for both, being on a yellow already.

I thought the peno was more a peno than not so have no complaint really.

The Terry one he might have gven, but Terry had both his arms by his side when he moved towards the ball so I wouldnt call the ref on that, it could have gone either way.

In the cold light of day, Chelsea probably deserved the victory. United, after a fairly balanced and exciting opening 15 minutes, had much the better of the first half and dominated Chelsea, although Chelsea did still create some good chances.

The second half, Chelsea upped their tempo significantly and their physicality and totally out muscled United. They looked like the only team that would score, bar the odd counter from United.

As a United supporter I cant really have any complaints. It was the same ld story with the centre of our midfield. Once Scholes went off, even though he didnt have a particularly good game, the midfield fell apart.

I`ve said it before and I`ll say it again, I`m amazed that United are top of the league. The midfield has been badly neglected for the last two years and is nowhere near good enough for the top level(Champions league). Rooney has had more or less 12 months of rubbish form. Fletcher is a shadow of the player hes been in the last two seasons. Even Evra has had a poor season imo. Still a fantastic threat going forward but he seems more and more lazy in his defensive duties.

The plus sides for United in all that doom and gloom(apart from being top of the league) is the fantastic form of Nani, who imo, outside of the defence, is Uniteds most important player.

Hernandez has also shone this season and its hard not to like the guy no matter who you support.

Berbatov has also had a fantastic season. Top scorer in the league and trying that little bit harder this season. Also one of the very few players we have that has beautiful close control and can go past players/pick a killer pass.

Rafael has been fantastic this season two and is surely Uniteds no1 right back, despite O Sheas getting a run of games lately.

Smalling as well has been an absolute gift this season, especially with the dramatic demise of Evans.

So overall there are plenty of positives, but the elephant in the room is still the lack of any quality in the centre of midfield and outweighs all the positives in the long run.

With Chelseas midfield, once they found some form like they did in the second half, were always going to run over Uniteds midfield, if truth be told.

Really, if we had an Essien out there for us last night, how happy would we be?

Sgt Pepper 64

adox wrote: »

The only two decisions I thought the ref got badly wrong were Luiz challenge on Rooney and his one on Hernandez. Both yellow cards imo and he could have walked for both, being on a yellow already.

I thought the peno was more a peno than not so have no complaint really.

The Terry one he might have gven, but Terry had both his arms by his side when he moved towards the ball so I wouldnt call the ref on that, it could have gone either way.

In the cold light of day, Chelsea probably deserved the victory. United, after a fairly balanced and exciting opening 15 minutes, had much the better of the first half and dominated Chelsea, although Chelsea did still create some good chances.

The second half, Chelsea upped their tempo significantly and their physicality and totally out muscled United. They looked like the only team that would score, bar the odd counter from United.

As a United supporter I cant really have any complaints. It was the same ld story with the centre of our midfield. Once Scholes went off, even though he didnt have a particularly good game, the midfield fell apart.

I`ve said it before and I`ll say it again, I`m amazed that United are top of the league. The midfield has been badly neglected for the last two years and is nowhere near good enough for the top level(Champions league). Rooney has had more or less 12 months of rubbish form. Fletcher is a shadow of the player hes been in the last two seasons. Even Evra has had a poor season imo. Still a fantastic threat going forward but he seems more and more lazy in his defensive duties.

The plus sides for United in all that doom and gloom(apart from being top of the league) is the fantastic form of Nani, who imo, outside of the defence, is Uniteds most important player.

Hernandez has also shone this season and its hard not to like the guy no matter who you support.

Berbatov has also had a fantastic season. Top scorer in the league and trying that little bit harder this season. Also one of the very few players we have that has beautiful close control and can go past players/pick a killer pass.

Rafael has been fantastic this season two and is surely Uniteds no1 right back, despite O Sheas getting a run of games lately.

Smalling as well has been an absolute gift this season, especially with the dramatic demise of Evans.

So overall there are plenty of positives, but the elephant in the room is still the lack of any quality in the centre of midfield and outweighs all the positives in the long run.

With Chelseas midfield, once they found some form like they did in the second half, were always going to run over Uniteds midfield, if truth be told.

Really, if we had an Essien out there for us last night, how happy would we be?

Thats a really good post, especially about your midfield.
I really think a lot of it is down to your manager, hate him but have to admire him. That and the hunger of the old guard, Giggs etc.
Its been said before, but put the present utd team up against the old ones and like for like, todays is a shadow of your normal utd team.
And you only lost last season by a point and that was with having midfielders playing in defence.
You better hope that Fergie never retires, your never see the likes of him again.

Blatter

fkiely wrote: »

A definite penalty in my eyes. Zhirkov (sp) played the ball behind Smalling who stopped him from reaching it. Wasn't cynical and there wasn't much Smalling could do but a penalty it certainly was. Can't see how people are saying otherwise to be honest.

So by your logic, when a defender blocks a shot with his hand in the pentaly area, even though he could do nothing about it, it's still a penalty.

That's not true, in the vast majority of cases when this happens, the ref recognises that the defender could not have gotten his arm out of the way and they don't give the penalty.

So why should he have given that penalty last night, based on that logic?

Essien

SOCCER4LIFE wrote: »

So by your logic, when a defender blocks a shot with his hand in the pentaly area, even though he could do nothing about it, it's still a penalty.

That's not true, in the vast majority of cases when this happens, the ref recognises that the defender could not have gotten his arm out of the way and they don't give the penalty.

So why should he have given that penalty last night, based on that logic?

A ball hitting off a defenders arm and a player leaving out a leg are 2 very different thing, I can't even begin to think how you linked the two. Or am I reading this wrong?

Blatter

Essien wrote: »

A ball hitting off a defenders arm and a player leaving out a leg are 2 very different thing, I can't even begin to think how you linked the two. Or am I reading this wrong?

fkiely said Smalling couldn't do much to get out of the way, my post is in light of that.

Essien

SOCCER4LIFE wrote: »

fkiely said Smalling couldn't do much to get out of the way, my post is in light of that.

But putting the leg out there in the first place was his choice, from that point on there was nothing he could do, it's the risk he took and it didn't pay off.

He can attempt the tackle and risk conceding the penalty or he can allow Yuri to proceed, he made his decision, he got unlucky, it was harsh but it was a penalty.

fkiely

SOCCER4LIFE wrote: »

So by your logic, when a defender blocks a shot with his hand in the pentaly area, even though he could do nothing about it, it's still a penalty.

That's not true, in the vast majority of cases when this happens, the ref recognises that the defender could not have gotten his arm out of the way and they don't give the penalty.

So why should he have given that penalty last night, based on that logic?

Not at all fella. One is stopping the ball and the other is stopping the player. What I'm attempting to explain is that whilst refs often don't give penalties for 'ball to arm', if it was as blatant a case as last night's was in denying a goal scoring opportunity, the chances are the ref would give it. Picture this, Zhirkov plays a chip over Smalling instead and while Smalling is jumping for the ball, the ball hits his arm which is at a 90 degree angle from his body. Would a penalty have been given then, even if it wasn’t intentional? Zhirkov was through on goal and Smalling, intentionally or not, denied his route through.

Liam O

Ah that's a penalty 8 times out of 10 now in fairness. The problem I have is how Vidic gets sent off(which in fairness he deserved for those challenges) but Luiz stays on for 2 or 3 much worse ones off the ball. Luiz staying on made a big difference and why wasn't the game stopped when Rooney went down?

Still absolutely no excuse for the 2nd half performance. Hernandez should have started on the bench and come on for the last 20 or 30 minutes as Berbatov is great when he starts but useless as an impact player. Giggs may have been unfit but he still should have started on the left and been taken off later.

Scholes has been very dodgy the last few games, giving the ball away quite a lot in dangerous positions and I think Rooney should be moved to his position sometimes and have a Berba-Chico frontline. I mean Rooney was making the passes last night that you expect Scholes to make and that is clearly something that hasn't diminished as much as his other skills have this season

Valencia and Park can't get back quick enough and I think the amount of time that United have to rely on having the likes of Fletcher on the wing the more chance the title has of going to Arsenal.

Essien

Liam O wrote: »

Ah that's a penalty 8 times out of 10 now in fairness. The problem I have is how Vidic gets sent off(which in fairness he deserved for those challenges) but Luiz stays on for 2 or 3 much worse ones off the ball. Luiz staying on made a big difference and why wasn't the game stopped when Rooney went down?

I don't think you'll find anybody arguing with you on that, I posted here seconds after it happened that he should have been off and I haven't heard too many others say different, from either fanbase, we know we got lucky.

The thing about Vidic is he also could have been booked for a shove on Drogba a few mins before he was sent off, so the ref had had enough I'd say.

VW 1

Essien wrote: »

I don't think you'll find anybody arguing with you on that, I posted here seconds after it happened that he should have been off and I haven't heard too many others say different, from either fanbase, we know we got lucky.

The thing about Vidic is he also could have been booked for a shove on Drogba a few mins before he was sent off, so the ref had had enough I'd say.

In fairness a lot of the Chelsea fans are being quite honest about the Luiz challenges and admitting they were lucky he was still on the pitch, same as the United fans were about Rooney at the weekend, but just one of them things gotta get on with it.

Agreed on Vidic, he lost the rag towards the end you could see him getting frustrated and just knew something silly was going to happen. He should know better under normal circumstances never mind with Rio out and Liverpool coming up at the weekend!

All in all delighted with how we played first half but when Chelsea started to perform we just didnt have the answers in the middle, maybe dropping Rooney off and playing 4-5-1 would have been smarter once Chelsea really got a hold of the game.

Overall it was a cracking game to watch with end to end stuff and hopefully we can push on this weekend and get 3 points against the pool.