Are we about to commit welfare fraud ?

Rabidlamb

My wife is taking redundancy at the end of March.
Along with the lump sum we'll save on the full-time creche fees for 2 kids.
There also be great petrol savings on the 2nd car.
When her JSB is added to these savings it will work out cost neutral which is a relief.

My question is whether she's legally entitled to JSB as she has no intention of looking for a job ?, she's essentially becoming a housewife.

Thanks for any feedback.

[Jackass]

The clue is in the name...

Job seekers benefit is for, well, people who are looking for a job. It is more than job seekers allowance, as people who have recent contributions to tax in the state are afforded slightly more as they have been contributing tax.

Technically, you are not entitled to JSB unless you are actively seeking employment. However, if you apply for the benefit based on recent tax contributions, JSB is fairly straight forward to get and very few questions are asked.

Is it fraud? Well, not really, I think certain out of work benefits should be afforded to those who no longer have employment.

It's more of a moral question that a fraudulant one...technically she's entitled to it, and just has to say she's looking for a job, but given the state of the country and the near bankrupcy we're in, it's more a question of do we need this to survive...

I'm not passing judegement either way, but to answer your question, no this is not fraud, if you are "technically" seeking work.

Rabidlamb

[Jackass] wrote: »

It's more of a moral question that a fraudulant one...technically she's entitled to it, and just has to say she's looking for a job, but given the state of the country and the near bankrupcy we're in, it's more a question of do we need this to survive...

I'm not passing judegement either way, but to answer your question, no this is not fraud, if you are "technically" seeking work.

Thanks Jackass, I had assumed it was automatic for 12 months & never questioned it until a nagging doubt occurred to me last night.
She's worked full-time for the past 14 years paying tax at the higher rate.
The thought of her not being able to claim while we have an estate full of scam experts didn't seem fair to me.
She could be "technically seeking" evening or weekend work so that salves my conscience.

edellc

no she has to tell them she is seeking full time employment they wont entertain part time or evening it has to be full time
if its jsb she is entitled to claim it the difficulty will occur when she has to change to jsa and its means tested on your salary

mrsbyrne

First of all i need to point out that the maximum JSA is exactly the same as JSB, no difference at all. Also tax paid has no bearing on entitlement to JSB, its PRSI contributions that matter. A self-employed person can have paid a lorry load of tax but will never be entitled to JSB, because they do not pay the required class of PRSI.when your wife presents herself to make a claim for JSB she is declaring that she is fit for, available for, and looking for full -time work.if she says she is only available for part-time or evening work she will not get JSB. She has to sign on once a month. When she signs on She will be asked if she has looked for work and she eventually will be asked to show proof that she looked for work. if she cannot provide proof she may be disqualified. She will be required to register with FAS.

omen80

Rabidlamb wrote: »

My question is whether she's legally entitled to JSB as she has no intention of looking for a job ?
.

Then you have to ask yourself if lying is the same as fraud?? She will no doubt get JSB but she will have to lie to get it.

cee_jay

omen80 wrote: »

Then you have to ask yourself if lying is the same as fraud?? She will no doubt get JSB but she will have to lie to get it.

Yes it is. One of the conditions of JSB is you are genuinely seeking and available for full time work. Lying to receive this payment is fraud.

Kimono-Girl

Just a note if she is going to become a full time housewife,

when i was made redundant i chose to do the same thing, when i told the social welfare (i was previously on a three day week) they told me i still should sign on every month to keep my stamps, you don't get a payment but it keeps you in the tax/welfare system for when you do go jobseeking or back to work, a few people don't know this,

Rabidlamb

cee_jay wrote: »

Yes it is. One of the conditions of JSB is you are genuinely seeking and available for full time work. Lying to receive this payment is fraud.

Ok, now I know the legal position, thanks.

As I've mentioned before welfare fraud/black economy is rife in our estate at present.
There are 4 families on my street alone who take in kids full-time to supplement their dole.
Our local creche is struggling with all the non-tax compliant competition.
We've always done things by the book & paid our way fairly.
But it's tempting, very tempting........

eddiehen

Rabidlamb wrote: »

Ok, now I know the legal position, thanks.

As I've mentioned before welfare fraud/black economy is rife in our estate at present.
There are 4 families on my street alone who take in kids full-time to supplement their dole.
Our local creche is struggling with all the non-tax compliant competition.
We've always done things by the book & paid our way fairly.
But it's tempting, very tempting........

Then report it. When it comes to drugs, murder, theft we look around us and say "I wouldn't do that" but when it comes to welfare fraud some people (and i don't wish to imply yourself OP) just tend to say "well he's getting away with it, why shouldn't I?". The sooner we change this the better, be it we all stop defrauding the state or we all go out taking drugs and committing murders. As long as we're consistent!

Rabidlamb

eddiehen wrote: »

Then report it. When it comes to drugs, murder, theft we look around us and say "I wouldn't do that" but when it comes to welfare fraud some people (and i don't wish to imply yourself OP) just tend to say "well he's getting away with it, why shouldn't I?". The sooner we change this the better, be it we all stop defrauding the state or we all go out taking drugs and committing murders. As long as we're consistent!

2 problems with the reporting:
(1) They have been my neighbours for years & most are my friends.
My kids play with their kids & they are essentially good people except for the bit of fraud.
(2) The money they get for illegal childminding stops them falling into arrears on their mortgages. I know this as I helped two of them keep their trackers after a restructuring. If they default it becomes the taxpayers problem unfortunately. Catch 22.

careca11

yes your wife should be entitled to the JSB ............................but don't hold your breathe on the irish social welfare system actually giving it her ,
they look after non-nationals better than us irish

cee_jay

careca11 infracted. There is no place for comments like that on this forum. And as a side note if his wife is not looking for work then she is not entitled to JSB - doesn't matter what nationality.

Rabidlamp, there is nothing tempting about social welfare fraud and there is to be no more discussion of same on this forum. Please read forum charter regarding what is allowed and not on this forum.

IF your neighbours are commiting SW fraud, it is up to you to report it, not to go out and commit same yourself. If your wife claims JSB and she is not looking for work it is fraud. If she does claim and gets paid because she lied about looking for work, there are checks in place where she will be asked to provide proof of all the jobs she has applied for.

eddiehen

Rabidlamb wrote: »

(1) They have been my neighbours for years & most are my friends.
My kids play with their kids & they are essentially good people except for the bit of fraud.

Just like saying the dealers down the road from me are alright, kids may play together but does that make their actions any more legal?

Rabidlamb wrote: »

(2) The money they get for illegal childminding stops them falling into arrears on their mortgages. I know this as I helped two of them keep their trackers after a restructuring. If they default it becomes the taxpayers problem unfortunately.

Then the issue is with the system, but again doesn't make it any more legal. If these people were to declare their income, and pay tax on it and not receive any benefits for days which they were working, then would that not place less of a burden on taxpayers? I don't recall a scheme where taxpayers shoulder the burden of defaulted mortgages.

In the end, the distinction between a "little bit of fraud to help pay the mortgage" and "a little bit of fraud to support the drug habit" is non-existent, and any blind eyes turned in not reporting these incidences is aiding and abetting.

Rabidlamb

cee_jay wrote: »

Rabidlamp, there is nothing tempting about social welfare fraud and there is to be no more discussion of same on this forum. Please read forum charter regarding what is allowed and not on this forum.

The legal position was clarified by yourself earlier in the thread.
I understand the charter & appreciate how your hands are tied with regards discussion of any illegal behaviour on here.
Unfortunately welfare fraud is prevalent in society but as long as it goes undiscussed we can pretend it doesn't exist.

I'll leave it at that, you may wish to now close this thread.

Rabidlamb.

meemeep

"no intention of looking for work" - that could change couldn't it? I mean after a week she could be screaming to get back to a job. My advice is apply anyway - you have to wait a number of weeks before getting anything - she can always sign off if she's sure she's not going back.

Also if she does decide to claim it, she "may" be asked to provide proof that she is looking for work, and may be asked to meet with FAS re. courses etc.

Plazaman

You will find a major restructuring of the Social Welfare System within the next 8 - 12 months. In order for everyone to be treated fairly, fraudsters should be reported same and insurance scammers as they are dipping into all our pockets.

OP if you're missus is looking for evening work, then that is available for and genuinely seeking work. However if she puts limitations on hours or location then a review of payments (which are to become more regular from April) will show that.

Rabidlamb

eddiehen wrote: »

I don't recall a scheme where taxpayers shoulder the burden of defaulted mortgages.

How I wish that were true.

eddiehen

Rabidlamb wrote: »

How I wish that were true.

I did, of course, mean household mortgages!

Demonique

Rabidlamb wrote: »

2 problems with the reporting:
(1) They have been my neighbours for years & most are my friends.
My kids play with their kids & they are essentially good people except for the bit of fraud.
(2) The money they get for illegal childminding stops them falling into arrears on their mortgages. I know this as I helped two of them keep their trackers after a restructuring. If they default it becomes the taxpayers problem unfortunately. Catch 22.

You still have a moral obligation to report it, they're STEALING from the state

edellc

so has Allied Irish, BOI, AIB, the majority of builders oh and the pri*ks that ran this country for the last number of years and whats going to happen to them SFA oh and the pricks get severance pay

Rabidlamb

Demonique wrote: »

You still have a moral obligation to report it, they're STEALING from the state

As I've mentioned before they are committing fraud to fund their mortgages.
If they default it impacts on the banks & hence the state through the taxpayer.
Damned either way from where I sit.
All the moral obligation in the word wouldn't make me report family or friends.

Demonique

Then why the frak mention the fact that they're committing fraud at all?

mp22

As we appear to be discussing fraud thread will now be closed.