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Some see it and some don't????
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01-03-2011 9:09pm#1Does anyone have any idea why it is that when one person comes accross spiritual teachings for the first time they're completely blown away and get an idea of what life is all about, then when another person reads or comes across the same spiritual teachings they find them completely meaningless?
When I say spiritual teachings I mean spirituality in the strictest sense of the word, Zen Buddhism, Eckhart Tolle etc.Tagged:0
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I presume for those that found their first experience of spiritual teaching to be somewhat meaningful that it must have awakened something inside them that they could connect with and that this is a signpost on their path. And for those that didnt, well they have their own path to follow!
That would have been my personal experience anyway.0 -
In my my own experience, I guess I wouldn't really say that when I came across spiritual teachings something awakened in me, I think it would be more accurate to say, I read and understood what was being said and saw a truth in it.
So, I was the same before and after (reading spiritual text)in terms of my personality, how I engagaed with people and how I felt about myself, although there would be a slight change in my personality over time but nothing major compared to radical shift in my outlook.I guess it would be fair to say i've been lazy with reguards to spiritual practice even though I know how the spiritual side of life is the only side that really really matters.Also I would like to point out that i'm very skeptical and in one sense you could say that i'm almost atheist, but its that part of me that I know for sure isin't atheist is the most important part, if that makes any sense.
Anyways getting back to my original question, what amazes me is the massive contrast in individuals when it comes to spirituality who are otherwise very similiar.Now, at this point I'd like to point out that i'm not looking for help or information that will help me grow spiritually its just something that interests me.
You could say what about the differance between people of strong religious faith v atheist.Well, not getting into that now, but as someone who once had religious faith its easier for me to understand why people hold these differant positions.
What I can never really understand is how if you took two people who are very alike and have similiar or close enough views on most matters and gave them say Eckhart Tolle's,The power of now, one might completely change his/her outlook on life and the other may find it completely meaningless.Also it always seems that there is no gray area, its like you either see it or you don't.0 -
I dont see it as black and white, you get it or you dont. With most things Ive looked into spiritually, some of it resonates, some doesnt, and you take from it what is meaningful.
I think what people get from any writings or belief systems depends both what their background is, ie, how they already understand the world, and what their level of need happens to be at that time. That can vary greatly even among otherwise similar individuals.0 -
In my view if a person is somewhat convinced according to his thoughts and understanding that the said thing sounds right than he start believing it. Otherwise according to ones upbringing and thoughts he found it quite out world thing to talk about. I mean completely meaningless like our scientist community.0
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It all depends on your perspective.
I take it that you believe you see truth in the spiritual teaching you mention "Zen Buddhism, Eckhart Tolle etc." and are wondering why other people "dont get it" "see it or dont"
Theres a lot of stuff out there putting itself forward as spiritual, its a virtual supermarket with ME at the center of it all.
Just because something is put forward as a spiritual teaching dosent mean it's true.
It still doesnt make it true when loads of people "get it" or believe it.
And just because the person putting themselves forward as teacher, wears robes and speaks so softly you have to strain to hear what they are saying this still dosent make it true. They all look like that, pretty much, its a uniform nothing special.
Beware false teachers.
Havent we learned enough about believing stuff just because of authority or popularity or tradition.
Discernment, remember that, for those of us raised in the christian tradition is one of the gifts of the holy spirit.
Its gone out of fashion as a word, at least I dont hear it too much in spiritual circles too much anymore but it might be worth a re look.Discernment is a term used to describe the activity of determining the value of a certain subject or event. Typically, it is used to describe the activity of going past the mere perception of something, to making detailed judgments about that thing. As a virtue, a discerning individual is considered to possess wisdom, and be of good judgement; especially so with regard to subject matter often overlooked by others.
Who the lemmings are depends on your perspective if you think the teaching is right then its all those fools who dont get it, if you think the teaching is wrong then its all those fools who believe.100,000 lemmings can't be wrong
Psychologists say
Now thats a scary one.We create the spirituality that fits our pathology0 -
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Never give it too much though and never studied the references in the OP, bur from time to time I realise that I have the same beliefs, at least in part, from many of the spiritual sources.
I've often though of setting up my own as it like a supermarket of thoughts and different people took a different selection and either they, or outward lookers in, then 'branded' their selection.
I tend to think things out for myself, later, as I mentioned, I do find many 'conform' to ancient 'teachings' but my selection would encompass almost all of them.
I find it's also one of those things that I rediscover and get enthusiastic over and then not think on for years.0 -
As polymorphic spirit beings we are totally free in infinity, all we have is our psychologies, our inner tso to experience it or not, thus spake the yomo
all we ever face is our psychology0 -
hi .same. , most people dont see it, in fact probably everyone that follows the likes of Tolle or buddhist teachers dont see it.
Why? because they are teaching it wrong.
Buddhist teachers are telling people they must meditate to achieve enlightenment, thats bollox. I feel sorry for people spending years meditating trying to achieve it. There doing it wrong. Meditation is healthy but it is NOT the way to enlightenment.
Tolle is onto something, but hes telling people to live in the moment , people cant do that without looking first. he talks about his experience of realising the false self, the fact that it doesnt exist, he is correct,but hes not showing people HOW, I dont blame him , he doesnt really know HOW it happened himself.
I became enlightened last Thursday (i actually hate that word) if you want help i can guide you to somewhere online that goes about it in a completely no BS way. You have to be willing to accept , at least acknowledge in theory that there is no 'you' or 'self' before you can take it further.
I became enlightened within two weeks of trying, and im not trolling. Someone else enlightened here can test me if they want, you know if someones talking sh1t or not.0 -
so, you've reached Enlightenment in two weeks. Then tell people I've reached enlightenment. To be perfectly truthful if you have reached FULL Enlightenment why would you tell others about this in such a way as you had? How did you manage to get the core of your Kundalini up beyond your Crown chakra in two weeks? Don't get me wrong here please I fully believe if we fully embrace the Divine Love it will happen faster than a rocket, though to come away telling others of it just doesn't feel right. I'm saying this really to share with you that maybe your Idea of enlightenment and Full enlightenment may be two very different things.
Sometimes we do need to be careful in what we say to others as sometimes people may not be ready to hear. In two weeks all your Karma from all your past lives accumulated have been surrendered. That is a lot and Only the Divine Love could help you in such a way.
All anger, hatred, jealousy, hurt feelings, dissatisfaction, dissapointment and other negative emotions have been surrendered fully. Is this true? Do you now feel the Love, peace, Joy, Happiness and calmness within all the time?
Enlightenment is a word that can be used in many different ways though I guess you are using enlightenment in the form of full spiritual enlightenment. What does this mean to you right now?0 -
so, you've reached Enlightenment in two weeks. Then tell people I've reached enlightenment. To be perfectly truthful if you have reached FULL Enlightenment why would you tell others about this in such a way as you had?
What way is that now? When your enlightened (god I hate the word), you just want to share it people, particularly people that WANT to see the truth.How did you manage to get the core of your Kundalini up beyond your Crown chakra in two weeks?
tbh that sentence makes absolute no sense to me.I know nothing about what ever your talking about there, but what I do know is that im in the right place because people here are looking for the truthDon't get me wrong here please I fully believe if we fully embrace the Divine Love it will happen faster than a rocket, though to come away telling others of it just doesn't feel right. I'm saying this really to share with you that maybe your Idea of enlightenment and Full enlightenment may be two very different things.
Why are you calling it divine love? Its just the truth of reality thats all, its seeing things are they are in real life as opposed to through the haze of the false self
Maybe your right, maybe theres even more clarity after this, that would be nice, but the way I see things now is as real as real gets for me and anyone else who becomes enlightened.
Again with the divine love, I dont believe in a past life, my body exists and thats it.
Sometimes we do need to be careful in what we say to others as sometimes people may not be ready to hear. In two weeks all your Karma from all your past lives accumulated have been surrendered. That is a lot and Only the Divine Love could help you in such a way.
No lol, well calmness yes actually, it is peaceful, that is very true. As for surrendering emotions? The body experiences thoughts which trigger emotions, so emotions still exist. Enlightenment is not nirvana or bliss, it is simply knowing the truth, it is freedom, whoever told you all that stuff is not enlightened, because if they were they wouldnt be saying it like that.All anger, hatred, jealousy, hurt feelings, dissatisfaction, dissapointment and other negative emotions have been surrendered fully. Is this true? Do you now feel the Love, peace, Joy, Happiness and calmness within all the time?Enlightenment is a word that can be used in many different ways though I guess you are using enlightenment in the form of full spiritual enlightenment. What does this mean to you right now?
I dont know where the relevance of the word spiritual comes from tbh.
Enlightenment is knowing the truth , actual reality for what it is, basically seeing things for real for the first time, it is knowing that the sense of 'self' is only an illusion and hurts the brain ALOT, it does so much damage to people that it takes away simple peace of mind, it takes away the acknowledgement of the simplicity of existance. Its a big dirty lie unfortunately.
Listen you dont sound to me like someone who genuinely wants to see the truth, you are so far from it with all your theory that you wont ever see it unless you drop all that and just LOOK. Look at reality for it is.
I really want everyone in the world to see the truth, but I cant help people that are not open to it.0 -
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What way is that now? When your enlightened (god I hate the word), you just want to share it people, particularly people that WANT to see the truth.
tbh that sentence makes absolute no sense to me.I know nothing about what ever your talking about there, but what I do know is that im in the right place because people here are looking for the truth
Why are you calling it divine love? Its just the truth of reality thats all, its seeing things are they are in real life as opposed to through the haze of the false self
Maybe your right, maybe theres even more clarity after this, that would be nice, but the way I see things now is as real as real gets for me and anyone else who becomes enlightened.
Again with the divine love, I dont believe in a past life, my body exists and thats it.
No lol, well calmness yes actually, it is peaceful, that is very true. As for surrendering emotions? The body experiences thoughts which trigger emotions, so emotions still exist. Enlightenment is not nirvana or bliss, it is simply knowing the truth, it is freedom, whoever told you all that stuff is not enlightened, because if they were they wouldnt be saying it like that.
I dont know where the relevance of the word spiritual comes from tbh.
Enlightenment is knowing the truth , actual reality for what it is, basically seeing things for real for the first time, it is knowing that the sense of 'self' is only an illusion and hurts the brain ALOT, it does so much damage to people that it takes away simple peace of mind, it takes away the acknowledgement of the simplicity of existance. Its a big dirty lie unfortunately.
Listen you dont sound to me like someone who genuinely wants to see the truth, you are so far from it with all your theory that you wont ever see it unless you drop all that and just LOOK. Look at reality for it is.
I really want everyone in the world to see the truth, but I cant help people that are not open to it.
In your last statement why would you come to a false conclusion about what I wrote?. Why say that I am someone who genuinely doesn't want to see the truth? Why do you THINK that I am talking theory here? Do you think that because I have a different understanding of Enlightenment than you that your understanding is some kind of better superior understanding?
What issue do you take with Divine Love, considering you have used the word God in your post I take it you believe in a higher authority.
Enlightenment is bliss it is a true understanding of the existence and all of our siblings within it. If your body is still being triggered by negative emotions stemming from your thoughts the Real truth may be a little distance away yet.
I can't tell you about the Real truth as it is something only you can realize when you fully experience it. Real truth is not thoughts, or being enlightened on worldly subjects. It is actually the very opposite.
It would be pointless of me to tell you about what a Mars Bar tastes like if you never tasted one before, this is same as knowing the real truth, however knowing is not good enough we need to live it every moment in every breath and every action we take.
You speak about wanting to tell the people the Truth. What truth have you to tell people? Is it about Love? What is it?0 -
This may sound arrogant, but yes I think its quite possible, because from what you describe of it, i.e. divine love, surrending all emotions, etc , its just not correct. If you think it is fair enough, Im not going to argue anymore about that cause theres no point.In your last statement why would you come to a false conclusion about what I wrote?. Why say that I am someone who genuinely doesn't want to see the truth? Why do you THINK that I am talking theory here? Do you think that because I have a different understanding of Enlightenment than you that your understanding is some kind of better superior understanding?
I dont believe in God, its just a word, i dont have an issue with divine love, love is fantastic, but it is not enlightenment, yes love is much more peaceful when enlightened but it is not enlightenment itself
What issue do you take with Divine Love, considering you have used the word God in your post I take it you believe in a higher authority.
Your body exists , it is real, a humanbody feels emotions, , the basic emotions, fear - anger (possibly the same thing, im still trying to get used to the emotions) love, happiness, sadness. Its how the emotions manifest themselves that makes things so peaceful for someone who is free. They are emotions, and that is all they are, they are not "my" emotions, there is no self battling with these emotions, they are just emotions, pure and simple.Enlightenment is bliss it is a true understanding of the existence and all of our siblings within it. If your body is still being triggered by negative emotions stemming from your thoughts the Real truth may be a little distance away yet.
I am not enlightened on worldly subjects. I dont know anything more than I did pre enlightenment, except that the self is false and that is what blocks our view of the real world. When you break down that self you see things the way they are, that is all.I can't tell you about the Real truth as it is something only you can realize when you fully experience it. Real truth is not thoughts, or being enlightened on worldly subjects. It is actually the very opposite.
this is a nice analogy, I meet use that one if you dont mind:), however I dont think its pointless. Because if you can accept that a mars bar has a taste and your willing to try it, then your ready for the battle with the 'self'.It would be pointless of me to tell you about what a Mars Bar tastes like if you never tasted one before, this is same as knowing the real truth,
No, nothing to do with love. The truth is that the majority of the worlds population sees the world through their own lens of the self. They believe that they are unique. Yes their body is unique,their brain is unique, but there is no self, The self is just a lie. And I feel the need to tell people that tell people that the self is a lie. Because once you drop that ego, that self, that 'you', then everything becomes true and peaceful.You speak about wanting to tell the people the Truth. What truth have you to tell people? Is it about Love? What is it?
Enlightenment is not for the 'elite' or the 'special', honestly it is not, it is for everyone, im just a normal open minded bloke who happen to run into someone that was willing to put the effort into showing me, its the greatest gift I have ever received and I feel obliged to give it to others, but preferably people who are suffering alot from the ego, you know the socially awkward quite anxious or depressed types who are so caught up in their own ego that its actually sad to look at.
If Id my way id be on the Personal Issues trying to tell everyone snap out of the self, but its too far removed to just jump in and say that, id be either accused of being weird, accused of potential spamming , or just be banned for constantly going off topic, even though the sad thing is that it would be very much on topic. At least people here are aware of the likes of Tolle etc so its a bit easier to communicate the truth because you've already looked into it.0 -
For me my spirituality comes from the fact that I see myself as life. Life flows through my body.Emotions and thoughts flow through my body. They aren't my emotions or thoughts. They just exist and then they pass. I let them exist as they are in the body, in which the life that I am exists. I am no prouder or less proud for any achievents or failures I make. The life that flows through this body I inhabit did what it did, and that's it.0
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I became enlightened last Thursday (i actually hate that word) if you want help i can guide you to somewhere online that goes about it in a completely no BS way. You have to be willing to accept , at least acknowledge in theory that there is no 'you' or 'self' before you can take it further.
I became enlightened within two weeks of trying, and im not trolling. Someone else enlightened here can test me if they want, you know if someones talking sh1t or not.
Ok, I'm game. Guide me to somewhere online Wylo.0 -
I agree with you that enlightenment can be sudden. You are like a Diamond if this happens.
http://www.google.ie/url?q=http://www.buddhism.org/board/read.cgi%3Fboard%3DSeon%26y_number%3D43&sa=U&ei=AE2vTZCYJoKChQeFuYneAw&ved=0CBIQFjAC&usg=AFQjCNG7L22OWxPiOM-2-D8XonLnU3RzxQ
Southern Chan (Zen) believes in sudden enlightenment and warns against the attachment to meditation. ( Platform Sutra. )
Remember that the Diamond cuts through all the flowery stuff (like the Lotus). Buddhism is like a raft crossing the stream; it must be discarded once the crossing is made. This is true enlightenment. (Diamond Sutra).
The sixth Patriarch says
There is no Bodhi-tree,
Nor stand of a mirror bright.
Since all is Void,
Where can the dust alight?
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/tibet/hui_neng1.html0 -
A quote from your first linkSudden Enlightenment of Mahāyāna tradition exerts prior nature of enlightenment (bodhi), Buddha-nature (Tathāgata-garbha), Innate Purity or Nirvāṇa and is realized through direct intuition or intuitive leap of discernment of Ultimate Truth (Paramārtha Satya) without gradual empirical development or progressive cultivation through meditation. Intuitive discernment is insight (vipaśyanā) into the true nature of all phenomena (dharmas). In contrast, Gradual Enlightenment of the Theravāda tradition does not exert prior nature of Innate Purity or Nibbāna which is developed empirically through gradual progressive three-fold training of morality (sīla), concentration (samādhi) and wisdom (paññā). Enlightenment is the fruit of non-discriminative knowledge (nirkalpita-jñāna) by which the illusion of the diversifying differentiations are intuitively realized.
Ok that sounds about right, not that i like the wording tbh, it makes it sound more than it is,
heres my version:
"Sudden Enlightenment is the true realisation that the sense of self is just an illusion that the human brain has developed from a young age because of the way humans behave and interact with each other,i.e. feeding ego and individuality into each other. You become enlightened when the illusion disappears"
I think as soon as technology advances enough every single human will become "enlightened", the procedure will be on a par with getting your tonsils out (obviously nothing physical though). Humans will then look back and laugh at our generation who actually thought enlightenment was something mystical or something that you must work your life to achieve, when in fact all it is is the truth of reality.
Just the way we look back at people and wonder why they thought a Solar Eclipse was some sort of sign from the Gods.
Im genuinely tempted to contact a brain specialist and get them to examine me if it means getting the lie of the self to the masses.
Enlightenment is a birth right, not something that should be earned.0 -
.same. well done on being able to define Spirituality so succintly! Spirituality is like Art in that it differs for everybody. For me it means being in tune with yourself and in balance.0
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as the saying goes, we are all enlightened, we just have to realise it.
not casting apsersions on anyone, but, with respect to the issue of enlightenment, there is a good quote that may or may not apply to anyone.don't mistake understanding for realisation, and don't mistake realisation for liberation0 -
Does anyone have any idea why it is that when one person comes accross spiritual teachings for the first time they're completely blown away and get an idea of what life is all about, then when another person reads or comes across the same spiritual teachings they find them completely meaningless?
When I say spiritual teachings I mean spirituality in the strictest sense of the word, Zen Buddhism, Eckhart Tolle etc.
Hey .same - tough question to answer, but I think some people have touched on [what is in my opinion] the answer.
I think a lot of it has to do with the way people are conditioned, and the pre-conceptions we can have of various concepts. Generally we tend to interpret things according to our existing belief systems, which are themselves governed by our experiences.
Some peoples life experience leads them to a situation where they resonate with spiritual teachings, while others life experiences doesn't. I think it is really just a matter of communication. Utlimately the truth of spiritual teachings (or truth in general) is non-conceptual, but the nature of our communication means that conceptual description of the non-conceptual is almost inevitable. It is just a matter of trying to express it in terms that makes sense to people, or in a manner that is helpful to others, so that we can start to see beyond the concepts being used, and experience the reality of the teachings.
It ain't an easy thing to do, particularly when our own understanding/realsiation/liberation is only developing itself.0 -
good quote, especially the first part, understanding is only the beginning of the battle, if you can intellectually acknowledge the lack of self then you are ready to try and actually know , see and experience it.mangaroosh wrote: »
not casting apsersions on anyone, but, with respect to the issue of enlightenment, there is a good quote that may or may not apply to anyone.don't mistake understanding for realisation, and don't mistake realisation for liberation
As for the second part, on a personal level, i have to say I have been liberated, the clarity is getting deeper every day.
Its a shame enlightenment has been put on a pedestal, its for everyone once they know how to approach it properly.
Anyway ive gotten a few pms so anyone else interested gimme a shout. We've nothing to gain and you've nothing to lose.
All we want to do is kill the lie/illusion that is the sense of self, it is the most detrimental thing to live with yet nearly every human must suffer with it.
I tried approaching Personal issues on boards, but I dont think anyone there is ready yet for such a random out of nowhere argument yet, at least here people know who Tolle is and what he is trying to say.0 -
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engageyourmind wrote: ».same. well done on being able to define Spirituality so succintly! Spirituality is like Art in that it differs for everybody. For me it means being in tune with yourself and in balance.
I didn't define spirituality nor did I attempt to, why would I seeing as I know very little about the subject. I don't consider myself all that spiritual either, I just said I saw truth in what some spiritual people are saying.0 -
......
.........All we want to do is kill the lie/illusion that is the sense of self, it is the most detrimental thing to live with yet nearly every human must suffer with it..........
Perhaps the 'sense of self' is different from the 'self'. There may be no 'self' but that does not mean that there is no 'sense of self'.
And one can get joy and celebrate their 'sense of self', irrespective of its nature.
I celebrate myself, and sing myself,
And what I assume you shall assume,
For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you. (Walt Whitman).
http://www.google.ie/url?q=http://www.daypoems.net/poems/1900.html&sa=U&ei=LLmyTdrUN4nOhAev6KzkDw&ved=0CBAQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNF5h8487Qq4KhVrPiobDaukQCkOyw0 -
Hi Joe, firstly , fair play, you are having an honest look and you see the truth that there is no 'self', unfortunately your trying to replace that with a sense of self, the only reason I wrote 'sense of self' was not to confuse people into thinking I believe the body and brain dont exist.Perhaps the 'sense of self' is different from the 'self'. There may be no 'self' but that does not mean that there is no 'sense of self'.
And one can get joy and celebrate their 'sense of self', irrespective of its nature.
I celebrate myself, and sing myself,
And what I assume you shall assume,
For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you. (Walt Whitman).
http://www.google.ie/url?q=http://www.daypoems.net/poems/1900.html&sa=U&ei=LLmyTdrUN4nOhAev6KzkDw&ved=0CBAQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNF5h8487Qq4KhVrPiobDaukQCkOyw
People that are honest with themselves are the easiest to approach, they are more open minded to the potential of it being a lie. I cant see the point in wasting my time with people that arent honest with themselves.
Your in the honest category, you are now admitting that theoretically the self does not exist, this is a great start, this is where I started and it didnt take me long to crack it after that. You may have reservations, it just seems too impossible , i.e. "HOW can there be no self?? Whos doing the thinking??" is what your thinking, newsflash man, the brain is doing the thinking, it doesnt need a controller, if you try and find the controller you wont be able to , every time you look for that self you cant find it, if you keep looking hard enough something will click in an instant and all of the sudden the self will be gone, this is what people call enlightenment. It may take days, weeks, months, but if you persevere it will click and you will look back and say "How on Earth was I so wrapped up in hazy distorted cloud of wrongness that is the self".
Im not disowning my pre enlightenment life whatsoever, id a decent life, I tried very very hard to improve myself all the time, but Im still shocked at wrong I got it. The way I viewed the world was so bloody wrong that it angers me nearly.
Now, everything is just simply cool, for want of a better word. I meet my friends, family, have a great time, I do some work and Im 100% focused. I dont dread doing anything but at the same time dont get overexcited and stressed about things either. Everything is peaceful calm and cool. Life simply exists so i may as well enjoy it. I will experience anger, fear, sadness, love, etc for the rest of my life, its what humans experience, like any developed animal, but feelings of stress, pointless anxiety, pointless embarrassment, awkwardness etc are all gone, and i think theyre gone forever.0 -
Why some people see it?
They see it because they keep their mind open to others view and try to understand it and try it. It is also dependent of his/her personal knowledge and understanding of the topic. It may depend upon the concerned person's upbringing.
Why some people don't see it?
It may be for their upbringing values, and thoughts that don't let them even think anything outside that closed cave of thoughts. Their ego don't want to except their body has some soul which cannot be seen just like god. etc. etc. etc.
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