DIY conveyancing

wazzoraybelle

I am purchasing a small piece of property , I will only be charged a nominal sum for it. I'm wondering if it is possible for a mere mortal (not a solicitor) to do all the conveyancing?

If it's possible, what are the steps involved?

Thanks
Wazzo

McCrack

It's possible to do a lot if not most of things if you have the means and know-how and yes that includes a conveyancing matter but its' not something that can be adequately explained on an anonymous internet discussion forum.

I'm sure you can appreciate that.

Farcear

Subject to the above caveat, if you are dealing with registered land -- the vendor can tell you if it is registered or not -- then you should be able to get some information from the people at the Land Registry. They are actually quite helpful.

Website: http://www.landregistry.ie/eng/

234

The risk is that if there is some mistake with conveyancing that goes unnoticed in the Land Registry (assuming that it is registered land) then you may find it very difficult or impossible to sell in the future. Solicitors can of coure make the same mistakes but you can sue them if they do, if you make the mistake then you have no legal recourse. At the moment it's a buyer's market for solicitors. If it's registered land then it's generally easy work and try to get a few competative quotes. Spend a little money now and you will have piece of mind for the future.

wazzoraybelle

thanks guys, it is registered land, and I have a copy of the folio, and the folio from which the land was originally transferred. There doesn't appear to be any burdens on the property either.
I suppose using a solicitor is prudent, but as the land itself is small and the price we are paying is low, it's quite possible that the conveyancing fees could be the most expensive part of the transaction.
Also, I'm curious about the process, and, if it wasn't too complicated, feel that I'd enjoy the conveyancing.

bath handle

Not getting a solicitor could be the most costly saving of money you ever make. Read the first few chapters of wylies Irish conveyancing law. If you still think you would enjoy it you have problems!

dermot_sheehan

You need to execute a deed.

You can get a precedents book or the law society conveyancing manual.

You need to put some certs in for revenue.

You need to send the deed to the land registry.

It's easy to mess up, I'd advise asking a solicitor for a quote.

TheBouldMowgli

wazzoraybelle wrote: »

thanks guys, it is registered land, and I have a copy of the folio, and the folio from which the land was originally transferred. There doesn't appear to be any burdens on the property either.
I suppose using a solicitor is prudent, but as the land itself is small and the price we are paying is low, it's quite possible that the conveyancing fees could be the most expensive part of the transaction.
Also, I'm curious about the process, and, if it wasn't too complicated, feel that I'd enjoy the conveyancing.

However enjoyable it may be, I think it's folly to do it yourself!

Presumably there is a small stamp duty arising on the transfer, and I find it unlikely that you could deal with this aspect as a non solicitor.

As stated previously, you could find yourself with a nice updated Folio but unable/costlier to transfer the land on in the future because you've botched some element of this purchase

dermot_sheehan

In fairness,
in the absence of fraud or the creation of any of the burdens in s. 72 of the Registration of Title Act that bind the land regardless of whether they are on the folio, the register is conclusive evidence of ownership. If the landregistry accepts the deed and updates the folio, more then likely the conveyance ought to be valid.

There won't be stamp duty if a nominal sum was paid, the certificates in the deed would still need to be there and I think the deed would have to be presented for adjudication to revenue.

The Land registry rules are here:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CCsQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.prai.ie%2Feng%2FPublications%2FLand_Registration_Rules_1972-2007.doc&ei=C2dvTYPqGoHDhAfO5tkz&usg=AFQjCNE5FhkZ4JbFw1T3VgqB7OqVJH8qqA&sig2=iClfxbKPzQ6KJyRUtlDBSw

wazzoraybelle

Thanks everyone, I'll get a couple of quotes!

McCrack

Oh my god....Tom?

Pat Mustard

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1954/en/act/pub/0036/print.html#sec58

Amendments.

DiY Solicitors

Thank your for that Mustard.

Though, every rule has its exceptions:-

58.—(1) This section applies to the following acts:

(a) the drawing or preparing of a document relating to real or personal estate or any legal proceeding,

[...]

(2) An unqualified person who does an act to which this section applies shall, subject to subsection (3) of this section and without prejudice to any other liability or disability to which he may be subject, be guilty of an offence under this section and be liable on summary conviction thereof to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds.


(3) The following acts shall be excepted from the foregoing provisions of this section—


(a) an act not done either directly or indirectly for or in expectation of any fee, gain or reward,

So, IMHO as long as the act of drawing the Title Deeds, remains one of a self conveyance whereas no fee is charged for doing so, Section 2 does not apply.

I am thinking the vendor's solicitor would object to receiving the funds in trust into the client account if one party is not bonded. Maybe, the work around to this would be to leave the whole amount of the asking price of the property (as a two part deposit) with the estate agent (trust/client account).

Pat Mustard

You can check the amendments to the legislation. S.58(1) has not been very significantly amended, but s.58(3) has been.

I am not certain why you say that a vendor's solicitor would necessarily object to receiving funds in trust. I am talking about cleared funds though.

If you decide to give an auctioneer your money, perhaps he might have some insurance, I don't know. Maybe not.

Have you hired an engineer in relation to your proposed purchase?

DiY Solicitors

I decided to forego the engineer report.

Essentially, I am hoping to purchase but more importantly I would like to do it myself.

I am trying to counter any objections I might have by the vendor's solicitor.

Auctioneer and/or Estate Agent would probably be a work around.

I will see how this goes, I am awaiting the contracts or a straight-out refusal from the vendor's solicitor to deal with.

Pat Mustard

DiY Solicitors wrote: »

I decided to forego the engineer report.

There is no shortage of hard luck stories from people who have refused to use engineers in relation to the purchase of land and buildings. What they saved in engineering fees one day was spent many times over in subsequent engineering fees alone, in relation to consequent fraught litigation.

But it sounds like you have already made up your mind, so I hope it works out well.

DiY Solicitors

Hmmmm.....

Well, I called a couple of them to get some preliminary info. The second factor I decided to forego, was that a sale in the same building a couple of months earlier had completed. So I figured, to chance it and hope that they had done an engineers report whereas nothing stopped them from buying.

Though, I do agree with you, it is very important, and if I did not have that second factor, I would have gotten an engineer.

Pat Mustard

I'll just add this, and you can take it or leave it as you see fit.

I think that it would be unwise not to use a solicitor in relation to a proposed purchase of property.

Let's suppose you draft a perfect deed of conveyance/transfer, and the title to the property is correctly conveyed into your name.

I don't know if you have worked in a solicitor's office previously, or whether you have some sort of legal training. However, unless you are accustomed to dealing with conveyancing, I would guess that the chances are fairly high that you would miss at least several of the many things that solicitors check in relation to property purchases, ranging from access to the property from the public road, to burdens/encumbrances/taxes/charges on the property, to planning permissions and compliance with same.

These issues may cost you money to rectify at a later point. Further, if there is an inexperienced or incompetent solicitor acting for the vendor, his papers may not be in order, and this could cause serious problems, unless you know what to expect.

People have bought or leased property only to end up being prosecuted as occupiers by the local authority for prior rates or for problems with planning permissions. Sure, somebody else may have been responsible, but it can be a lot more costly and painful to fix these problems afterwards. These are some of the types of issues that should be sorted out before a sale completes.

If you are trained in conveyancing, maybe you'll smooth over all of the issues. Maybe it's a simple purchase of a site. I really have no idea. It doesn't matter to me whether you use a solicitor or not. It makes no difference to me one way or the other.

It's your money.

DiY Solicitors

Thank you,

I do really appreciate your input.

Essentially, I have only read the The Law Society of Ireland: Conveyancing 6th Edition and downloaded a copy of the Law Society of Ireland General Conditions of Sale (2009 Edition) from the web.

The property is a condominium in a complex of about 50 units. I can not anticipate anything major or out of the ordinary, but of course, if while pouring through the documents the vendor's solicitor sends, turns up anything that looks remotely like it could have a complication, I will definitely go to a solicitor.

But this exercise is about seeing if the average Irish citizen really wishes to self-convey can he/she do it? Or better yet, can it even be done, without a solicitor putting the kaibash on the process?

I will soon find out! :pac:

nuac

1. Have the map checked by an engineer

2. even the smallest piece of ground can become important in time.

3. there are always possible complications - title actions in the circuit court can make "The Field" look like a sedate book club meeting.

4. Leave it to a solicitor.

nuac

When I f irst looked at this thread it appeared to be about purchasing a small property for a nominal sum. I assumed it was a small piece of unbuilt ground.

I now see it is a "condominium" is a 50 unit block.

that is an american term, new to Irish law. I have looked thru' some US titles. There are some differences this side of the Atlantic.

Assuming this is an apartment in a 50 unit block there are a numerous items to check.

Searches against Vendor company, management co.


Nominal price for an apartment? How come? Revenue issues?

Mortgagees?

Leases?

Vendors title? ( clue: Folio from PRA is only a start )

Planning compliance?

Building Control compliance

Certification from appropriate professionals?

Management company? Does it own the common areas? Accounts? Meetings?

Wayleaves and rights of way

etc etc

If you go ahead with this without legal and engineering/architectural advice, good luck - you will need it.

littlemac1980

This is a really confusing Thread - the original post is from 2011, and then it jumps to yesterday with someone else appearing to take up the same enquiry - I had to read it twice to figure out what had happened.

Have I missed something? Was there a post deleted?

Pat Mustard

littlemac1980 wrote: »

This is a really confusing Thread - the original post is from 2011, and then it jumps to yesterday with someone else appearing to take up the same enquiry - I had to read it twice to figure out what had happened.

Have I missed something? Was there a post deleted?

DIY Solicitor's initial post was taken down for one reason or another, and this has led to the confusion.

From memory, DIY Solicitor plans to purchase what seems to be an apartment for €38,000 cash. There is no mortgage. He/she has said that he/she intends to carry out his/her own conveyancing work, without hiring a solicitor.

Pro Hoc Vice

The Mustard wrote: »

DIY Solicitor's initial post was taken down for one reason or another, and this has led to the confusion.

From memory, DIY Solicitor plans to purchase what seems to be an apartment for €38,000 cash. There is no mortgage. He/she has said that he/she intends to carry out his/her own conveyancing work, without hiring a solicitor.

A very risky gamble very risky, but if he/she can risk €38k plus go for it to save a few hundred.

hullaballoo

DIY Solicitors deleted his/her own post, which has caused the confusion. It wasn't me this time.

DiY Solicitors

As suspected,

According to this letter from a Solicitor in Ireland, normal punters, or anyone without a valid practising certificate WILL NOT BE DEALT WITH.

[...
Unfortunately, I must advise that we are effectively precluded from dealing with anybody other than a qualified and licensed conveyancing practitioner in the conveyancing of any property in this jurisdiction.

As such, we are unable to accede to the proposed Purchaser’s request in that regard.

We would be happy to re-issue draft Contracts for Sale together with copy title documentation to vouch once he nominates a duly qualified Solicitor holding a current practicing certificate for that purpose.
...]

Pro Hoc Vice

DiY Solicitors wrote: »

As suspected,

According to this letter from a Solicitor in Ireland, normal punters, or anyone without a valid practising certificate WILL NOT BE DEALT WITH.

[...
Unfortunately, I must advise that we are effectively precluded from dealing with anybody other than a qualified and licensed conveyancing practitioner in the conveyancing of any property in this jurisdiction.

As such, we are unable to accede to the proposed Purchaser’s request in that regard.

We would be happy to re-issue draft Contracts for Sale together with copy title documentation to vouch once he nominates a duly qualified Solicitor holding a current practicing certificate for that purpose.
...]

And why should he, if anything goes wrong his insurance is on the line. I personally would hate to be a solicitor in that case. I find one issue in the letter funny "licensed conveyancing practitioner" I did not think such a thing existed in ROI and it was just a England and Wales creation, but I suppose it's just in there in case.