Single Dads and Guardianship...or not...

Fittle

I am the parent of a young boy who's father has never been involved.

I recently decided to (finally) prepare my Will, a process I have found very difficult to do, but one I'd recommend to you all for the peace of mind it can eventually give you.

Anyway, I decided to do it through a solicitor - I know it can be done without one, but I'm in a position of having some family members who might swoop on my home/life insurance etc, so I thought I'd better not leave any stone unturned.

Whilst dealing with appointing my child's guardian (in the event of my demise) the solicitor commented that while he's very supportive of single men having joint guardianship at birth, and thinks they should have it, in 99% of cases, my own case was one where he believes it's right that unmarried men don't get automatic guardianship at birth.

If they did, in my situation, my sons dad could move into my home (on the premise of raising our child) and basically get his hands on anything I have, all in the name of raising his (our child) child as his legal guardian. He told me he had seen it happen in two clients of his in the past 18 months - both women were married, neither father had shown any interest in the children for years, the mother died and both men now live in the family home, 'raising' the children that neither of them had even seen in years.

I am all for fathers rights but I thought this was worth a mention here, for those of you who might be in a similar situation (parenting alone).

He also mentioned that should anything happen to my sons father, my son is entitled to a share is his estate - something I also had never thought of. No matter that we weren't married and that he's living with his partner and has another child - my son is still entitled to a share in his fathers estate.

Perhaps I sound like I'm a money-grabber and would like my sons father dead, but I am far from it. But writing my will and trying to sort out my sons life if I wasn't here, just has me thinking about death in general - something none of us want to think about.

This isn't really a problem or a query - more something I feel other single parents should be aware of.

metrovelvet

This is the main reason I would oppose automatic guardianship. There are more than enough women raising kids alone for it to be deemed rare and exceptional.

I am working on this recently, funny that you should mention it and have most of it taken care of but I have to get some things sorted out on the US side too.

As for the child's inheritence rights. I think your solicitor is mistaken. The kids are not automatically entitled to anything, especially if the father has made a will and has left it to other people or if he has left a widow, its wife first, kids second. In my own son's case there would have to be a post humous dna test done in order for paternity to be established before any kind of inheritance could be pursued and claimed.

smelltheglove

Good point OP and I still kick myself that I havent done this yet. I have always had the intentiont o do it but never got around to it. I'd be in an awkward situation where I am married with a second child and I would want my husband to have the 2 kids to keep them together. I guess I am lucky enough that we have a good relationship with my ex and I would hope that would continue (touch wood). I don't have a lot for people to fight over but the welfare of the kids would be important to me.

Another point, has anyone ver thought of what if something suddenly happened, God forbid and their kids were left without their mothers or both parents even? Its not something I think of often but I remember watching the PS I love you movie and I thought the whole idea was lovely. A couple of years ago I set up email addresses for my kids, both my husband and sister know about these, every few months I will send them a little note, whats been happening lately, how much I love them etc and include some a recent picture of them and tell them how it came about. I guess its my way of ensuring that if something did happen, when they are older they can look at these and see that I was always thinking of them and loved them so much. It's not a depressing thing, I mean if nothing happens then at some stage I will pass the info on to them so they can access their emails and read them anyway. When I told my sister she set ones up for her kids too, its just an idea anyway that I thought suited the topic.

Fittle

metrovelvet wrote: »

This is the main reason I would oppose automatic guardianship. There are more than enough women raising kids alone for it to be deemed rare and exceptional.

I am working on this recently, funny that you should mention it and have most of it taken care of but I have to get some things sorted out on the US side too.

As for the child's inheritence rights. I think your solicitor is mistaken. The kids are not automatically entitled to anything, especially if the father has made a will and has left it to other people or if he has left a widow, its wife first, kids second. In my own son's case there would have to be a post humous dna test done in order for paternity to be established before any kind of inheritance could be pursued and claimed.

Apologies, he's obviously not 'automatically' entitled to a share of his dads estate, if his dad leaves a will to his partner and other son. But he is legally entitled to it, if he's excluded, and can bring it to court to be awarded his share.

I have a few court orders for maintenance, so no court order for paternity required in my case.

Fittle

That sounds like something I'd love to do smelltheglove - what do you mean when you say you set up emails though? I'd be afraid that someone wouldn't have the password or something.

In my case, I put a wishlist in with my will - just stuff I'd love for him - mainly education and loads of hugs:D

But I like that idea about keeping him posted on life. I think I'd like to write it down though, and print it off...might find myself a box and print something off for him every few months, and tell someone where that box is:D Lovely idea, thanks for that.

smelltheglove

Fittle wrote: »

That sounds like something I'd love to do smelltheglove - what do you mean when you say you set up emails though? I'd be afraid that someone wouldn't have the password or something.

In my case, I put a wishlist in with my will - just stuff I'd love for him - mainly education and loads of hugs:D

But I like that idea about keeping him posted on life. I think I'd like to write it down though, and print it off...might find myself a box and print something off for him every few months, and tell someone where that box is:D Lovely idea, thanks for that.

Haha since I posted I just wrote one to the eldest there.

Well I just set up gmail accounts for each of them, my sister knows their passwords but the eldest knows the password I use anyway. Maybe if I get around to this will thing I can put the details down there too.

I should also say, I find the email thing handy because of the fact that it will be there in cyber space whereas Id misplace a box or if the house was flooded or on fire or whatever those memories would be gone so much easier, at least I have record in my sent mail and they have it in their inbox, I also go in and log into the accounts every so often to ensure they dont get closed.

I tend to write them maybe once every month or two but particularily if one of them has done something really funny or cute I will include that. As I am addicted to my photography I have loads of photos and attach pics to each of the mails. I dont know if the attachments will expire over time but I hope not anyway. They are just simple messages really. Put it this way, I am really looking forward to my girls teenage years, unlike most but I cant wait mainly because when I was a teenager my mam had moved out and didnt have the female influence or advice and if something did happen before they reached that tender age at least they would know how loved they were!

Fittle

smelltheglove wrote: »

Haha since I posted I just wrote one to the eldest there.

Well I just set up gmail accounts for each of them, my sister knows their passwords but the eldest knows the password I use anyway. Maybe if I get around to this will thing I can put the details down there too.

I should also say, I find the email thing handy because of the fact that it will be there in cyber space whereas Id misplace a box or if the house was flooded or on fire or whatever those memories would be gone so much easier, at least I have record in my sent mail and they have it in their inbox, I also go in and log into the accounts every so often to ensure they dont get closed.

I tend to write them maybe once every month or two but particularily if one of them has done something really funny or cute I will include that. As I am addicted to my photography I have loads of photos and attach pics to each of the mails. I dont know if the attachments will expire over time but I hope not anyway. They are just simple messages really. Put it this way, I am really looking forward to my girls teenage years, unlike most but I cant wait mainly because when I was a teenager my mam had moved out and didnt have the female influence or advice and if something did happen before they reached that tender age at least they would know how loved they were!

I'm almost in tears here:( But in a nice way!
That's exactly what I'm gonna do...I have a baby book for him that I filled in till he was about 4..but very little else! Hundreds of communion pics and birthday pics of course, but nothing written down. Gonna start that tomorrow, thanks:D

I would recommend that you even speak to someone about your will. Honestly, it has rested my mind no end:)

metrovelvet

Fittle wrote: »

Apologies, he's obviously not 'automatically' entitled to a share of his dads estate, if his dad leaves a will to his partner and other son. But he is legally entitled to it, if he's excluded, and can bring it to court to be awarded his share.

I have a few court orders for maintenance, so no court order for paternity required in my case.

I have a court order for maintenance too but my situation is complicated because no one knows where his dad is and my son was born in the US so other countries wont recognise that as establishment of paternity.

I also made stipulations in case if incapacity, such as brain damage, extended hospitalisation, things like that. I also made sure that all relevant documents also be left to the guardian I appointed. I am also thinking of making stipulations [back up] in case something happenned to the guardian I appointed.

metrovelvet

smelltheglove wrote: »

Haha since I posted I just wrote one to the eldest there.

Well I just set up gmail accounts for each of them, my sister knows their passwords but the eldest knows the password I use anyway. Maybe if I get around to this will thing I can put the details down there too.

I should also say, I find the email thing handy because of the fact that it will be there in cyber space whereas Id misplace a box or if the house was flooded or on fire or whatever those memories would be gone so much easier, at least I have record in my sent mail and they have it in their inbox, I also go in and log into the accounts every so often to ensure they dont get closed.

I tend to write them maybe once every month or two but particularily if one of them has done something really funny or cute I will include that. As I am addicted to my photography I have loads of photos and attach pics to each of the mails. I dont know if the attachments will expire over time but I hope not anyway. They are just simple messages really. Put it this way, I am really looking forward to my girls teenage years, unlike most but I cant wait mainly because when I was a teenager my mam had moved out and didnt have the female influence or advice and if something did happen before they reached that tender age at least they would know how loved they were!

That is such a beautiful idea!! Im going to copy you.

smelltheglove

metrovelvet wrote: »

That is such a beautiful idea!! Im going to copy you.

Haha I either get that or get told Im a soppy sod, one or the other, I am a soppy sod when it comes to my babies though!

Morag

If a Father is in his kids lives and is not married to the mother then he needs to get guardianship sorted or else he is legally a stranger to the child/ren he is helping to rear.

If a parent is not in a child's life and has no intrested then there should be means to squash guardianship, for both mothers and fathers.

thebullkf

i think the father should be automatically given guardianship upon the childs birth,unless he legally waives that right.

i mean, a guy can have no access to the child,but still be liable for maintenance...how is that equitable?

way too much in favour of the mother imo.

Scenario: couple have a child-mother dies, child automatically under guardianship of his mothers next of kin. not automatically to his biological father . {whether said father is active in childs life or not}

surely you all see this as being inherently wrong?






or am i wrong . . .

January

thebullkf wrote: »

i think the father should be automatically given guardianship upon the childs birth,unless he legally waives that right.

i mean, a guy can have no access to the child,but still be liable for maintenance...how is that equitable?

way too much in favour of the mother imo.

Scenario: couple have a child-mother dies, child automatically under guardianship of his mothers next of kin. not automatically to his biological father . {whether said father is active in childs life or not}

surely you all see this as being inherently wrong?






or am i wrong . . .

Kind of, would you like your child to be in the care of someone they hardly even know? That would be equated to having the child left in foster care if you think about it...

Also, sometimes the man does not want to be involved in the childs life, do you think he shouldn't pay maintenance through choice?

metrovelvet

A guy can have rights to the child and not have seen him or her in 12 years or maybe never. How is that right?

Ot how about the dad who pops in once a year? Or the dad that never pays maintenance?

How is that right?

thebullkf

January wrote: »

Kind of, would you like your child to be in the care of someone they hardly even know? That would be equated to having the child left in foster care if you think about it..

of course not, but i shouldn't {as a man } be expected to pay for it.

Also, sometimes the man does not want to be involved in the childs life, do you think he shouldn't pay maintenance through choice?

i agree, but if he doesn't want to be involved,he should be free to make that choice. not the other way around where the mother decides everything-the only automatic guardianship is via marriage (?).

i don't believe the father should choose to pay maintenace,but if the parents are split up,and the father has no input whatsoever in his childs life
A) he's either a scmuck ,
he may feel its in the childs best interests-ie mother is with new partner/engaged/ etc,
or
C) the mother refuses access altogether (i know court orders can arrange some access)

imo maintenace is too often used as leverage over visitation rights/access.
i don't think either side should have it all their way unless by written legal agreement.

thebullkf

metrovelvet wrote: »

A guy can have rights to the child and not have seen him or her in 12 years or maybe never. How is that right?

Ot how about the dad who pops in once a year? Or the dad that never pays maintenance?

How is that right?

i never said it was right, what i'm saying is, you as a mother hold all the cards, thats not right.

what about the mother who only allows access once a year?

what about the mother that doesn't require maintenace?

metrovelvet

I was left holding all the cards, along with all the night feeds, all the toilet training, all the labour, the post operative caesarian, all the pregnancy, all the carrying the carseat home nine months pregnant, all the building the cot by myself while holding a baby in a baby sling and heavily sleep deprived, all the hospital appointments, the teething, the vomitting, the learning to walk, the surgeries, the wiping away the tears, the post natal depression, YEP I HOLD ALL THE CARDS because I was left holding the baby. And yeah its not right, but the law allows it, the culture allows it and I am far from alone in that scenario.

If you really feel that a man should have that choice to walk away from their kids and maintenance then ok, let's accept that, but then they cant ask for guardianship a few years down the line, they cant go back on their choice then.

amiable

thebullkf wrote: »

but if he doesn't want to be involved,he should be free to make that choice.

I can't believe somebody thinks its ok for a man to decide he doesn't want anything to do with a child he helped create.
I know it happens a bit but can't believe anyone thinks its ok
I'm genuinely shocked and disappointed

smelltheglove

metrovelvet wrote: »

I was left holding all the cards, along with all the night feeds, all the toilet training, all the labour, the post operative caesarian, all the pregnancy, all the carrying the carseat home nine months pregnant, all the building the cot by myself while holding a baby in a baby sling and heavily sleep deprived, all the hospital appointments, the teething, the vomitting, the learning to walk, the surgeries, the wiping away the tears, the post natal depression, YEP I HOLD ALL THE CARDS because I was left holding the baby. And yeah its not right, but the law allows it, the culture allows it and I am far from alone in that scenario.

If you really feel that a man should have that choice to walk away from their kids and maintenance then ok, let's accept that, but then they cant ask for guardianship a few years down the line, they cant go back on their choice then.

Well said.

Im all for fathers rights, I insisted on a good relationship in my case BUT there are the fathers who walk away by choice and still behave hard done by, as there are mothers too and I honestly think that if a man or woman decides to turn their back on their child then the other parent is more than entitled to write out a will placing somebody else as the legal guardian, somebody he/she knows will not decide to turn their back on the child in the future!

thebullkf

metrovelvet wrote: »

I was left holding all the cards, along with all the night feeds, all the toilet training, all the labour, the post operative caesarian, all the pregnancy, all the carrying the carseat home nine months pregnant, all the building the cot by myself while holding a baby in a baby sling and heavily sleep deprived, all the hospital appointments, the teething, the vomitting, the learning to walk, the surgeries, the wiping away the tears, the post natal depression, YEP I HOLD ALL THE CARDS because I was left holding the baby. And yeah its not right, but the law allows it, the culture allows it and I am far from alone in that scenario.

If you really feel that a man should have that choice to walk away from their kids and maintenance then ok, let's accept that, but then they cant ask for guardianship a few years down the line, they cant go back on their choice then.

my apologies, i'm not trying to antaganise.:o
for genuine cases like yours, or similar, when father fecks off and chooses either in writing/by absense to not have input into his childs life, yes he should have no automatic rights,they should be earned.

but allow me to paint a similar flipside to that scenario, switch the roles in the above case-mother still holds all the cards.

A slightly depressing story below but i feel its relevant:

I had a close friend (when younger) who was in such a scenario, mother went to court-took child,took €300 a week maintenance{he had his own business} refused access,waited till last minute on visit days, ie he'd arrive @ her house, no answer,ringing,texting etc. eventiually get a reply,child not well come back next week.:(
and similar stalling/dirty tactics...despicable.

my mate lost his business through worry,stress, and all he ever wanted was fair access...

he killed himself not long after.

Tragic,Sad and Infuriating:mad:


sorry for the sad example but i feel its indicitive of the law in Ireland.

I know another guy who gets his child every weekend, but not xmas,easter,halloween.... he's happy enough, in thathe realises not many fathers are so lucky,but that kids mother has the life of riley....

they live in seperate counties,the guy does all the travelling-she refuses.

January

thebullkf wrote: »

of course not, but i shouldn't {as a man } be expected to pay for it.



i agree, but if he doesn't want to be involved,he should be free to make that choice. not the other way around where the mother decides everything-the only automatic guardianship is via marriage (?).

i don't believe the father should choose to pay maintenace,but if the parents are split up,and the father has no input whatsoever in his childs life
A) he's either a scmuck ,
he may feel its in the childs best interests-ie mother is with new partner/engaged/ etc,
or
C) the mother refuses access altogether (i know court orders can arrange some access)

imo maintenace is too often used as leverage over visitation rights/access.
i don't think either side should have it all their way unless by written legal agreement.

A & B are relative to each other, a step parent will never make up for a real parent and if a father walks away from a child because they think the mothers new partner will take over, they are also a schmuck!

Only "Scummy Mummies" refuse access as a means to get more maintenance, any proper mother interested in their children having a relationship would waive regular maintenance (while still fighting for regular maintenance!!!) in the hopes that they can have a proper relationship.

If the mother refuses access, she better have a damn good reason, because the courts will grant it, even if it is supervised until the father and child build a proper relationship.

thebullkf

amiable wrote: »

I can't believe somebody thinks its ok for a man to decide he doesn't want anything to do with a child he helped create.
I know it happens a bit but can't believe anyone thinks its ok
I'm genuinely shocked and disappointed

do you think i think its ok

amiable

thebullkf wrote: »

do you think i think its ok

You said he should be free to.
Sorry if i picked you up wrong

thebullkf

January wrote: »

A & B are relative to each other, a step parent will never make up for a real parent

i must say i disagree with that.

and if a father walks away from a child because they think the mothers new partner will take over, they are also a schmuck!

what i mean is if its in the childs best interests, not just walking away.

Only "Scummy Mummies" refuse access as a means to get more maintenance, any proper mother interested in their children having a relationship would waive regular maintenance (while still fighting for regular maintenance!!!) in the hopes that they can have a proper relationship.

alas its prevalent these days.

If the mother refuses access, she better have a damn good reason, because the courts will grant it, even if it is supervised until the father and child build a proper relationship.

my mate went to court,but there where delaying tactics used,intimidation from male family members etc etc

thebullkf

amiable wrote: »

You said he should be free to.
Sorry if i picked you up wrong

iits grand, i don't think its ok;)
{to clarify}

January

thebullkf wrote: »

i must say i disagree with that.




what i mean is if its in the childs best interests, not just walking away.



alas its prevalent these days.



my mate went to court,but there where delaying tactics used,intimidation from male family members etc etc

Than unfortunately, you have to take it back to court, call the Garda etc, it's a long and messy road. But if there is an order in place it can be enforced by the Garda... The mother could have been arrested for breaching the court order.

What do you mean it is the childs best interests? I

amiable

January wrote: »

Than unfortunately, you have to take it back to court, call the Garda etc, it's a long and messy road. But if there is an order in place it can be enforced by the Garda... The mother could have been arrested for breaching the court order.

What do you mean it is the childs best interests? I

Genuine question, would the gardai really arrest a mother in these circumstances?
I'd personally guess no but i'm open to correction here

January

amiable wrote: »

Genuine question, would the gardai really arrest a mother in these circumstances?
I'd personally guess no but i'm open to correction here

I've never heard of it happen personally, but, I've heard of fathers been arrested for breaking a maintenance order, so I'd hope so... that or they'd have a stern word and the child would go off with the father until the next time when they'd have to call the Gardai again... if she does it enough times she should be arrested for breaking the law.

metrovelvet

amiable wrote: »

Genuine question, would the gardai really arrest a mother in these circumstances?
I'd personally guess no but i'm open to correction here

Probably not because if the mother goes to jail then the kids are high and dry or the courts have to organise foster care. Some might say, why cant they just send the kids to the dads while the mother is in jail? Well the courts don't ever enforce access on the dads. Access is a right the dads can take up or leave if they want, kind of like voting.

Sometimes, if the mother obstructs access consistently, the judge might weigh this up and give greater custody to the father who he would think can do a better job of facilitating access.

smelltheglove

thebullkf wrote: »

A slightly depressing story below but i feel its relevant:

I had a close friend (when younger) who was in such a scenario, mother went to court-took child,took €300 a week maintenance{he had his own business} refused access,waited till last minute on visit days, ie he'd arrive @ her house, no answer,ringing,texting etc. eventiually get a reply,child not well come back next week.:(
and similar stalling/dirty tactics...despicable.

my mate lost his business through worry,stress, and all he ever wanted was fair access...

he killed himself not long after.

Tragic,Sad and Infuriating:mad:

.

Sorry to hear your story, its a sad case. Not always true though, my mam moved out and never got custody back, same was the case with cousins of mine too. Guess it depends on the judges decision, terrible story though.

January wrote: »

a step parent will never make up for a real parent and if a father walks away from a child because they think the mothers new partner will take over, they are also a schmuck!

Completely disagree with first point agree with them being a schmuck if they walk away........ I met my husband when my eldest was just 1, and although she has her daddy and loves him very very much who do you think did more of the nappies? Who ensures there is food in the fridge for her? Looks after her when she is sick and puts her first ALL of the time? Dont get me wrong I am not slating her dad, he is not there to do that and Im sure if he was he would most likely be similar to my husband but being the step parent my husband has done more 'parenting' and would be her second point of call after me if she ever needed anything. Again nothing wrong with her daddy but as a step parent my husband has been miles better a parent than many parents I see. I can also say the same for my dad in regards to my own step bro and sis, they have just as much importance to him as any of his own kids do and he has done a million times more things for them than their own dad did, a man who ignored them for years....! Sometimes a step parent can be better than the real thing!

metrovelvet

^ And a good step parent is probably one of the most unappreciated roles around, especially those who live with the custodial parent.