€€€€€ Anaerobic digestion for Biogases

Chevy RV

Hello Folks,


I am new to this forum so any responses would be appreciated.

Did any of you see the attached Eco Eye programme about the possibilities for an alternative farm income :-

http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1092913

What were your thoughts on this ?

Is it a runner?

I know that there is a large capital expenditure attached but among a group of local farmers?


Regards,

Chevy RV

ihatetractors

Not profitable as for a decent sized digester you neeed 40000 odd thousand ton of high energy feedstock and about 1500 acres to provide it atleast, so no, not profitable in this country unless you've a free 15 odd milion lying about..

bogman_bass

You would need to collect green bins from a city or major town as a source of feedstock and probably charge gate fees for it

Reagh

if the government were perpared to pay the correct price per kilowatt then the digesters would be a top idea. If one were set up in an area of high livestock density then it would absolutely work. It would cut farmers cost immensely as they are currently hauling slurry across long distances, would create sustainable energy and the biogas plant would indeed charge gate fees. The farmer in Germany (on duncans show the other night.) is charging gate fees on his unit. It has a big capital cost but guaranteed returns are there if it is supported by the government in the same way as in Germany. Some of the larger farms would have sufficient quantities of slurry to make a major go of this idea. Obviously gate reciepts would need to be charged for others using the facility but i couldnt see this being a problem.

F.D

Actually thought the show was interesting for a change and i think like in germany if given a good chance and the infrastructure was set up for it it might work if the farmers set up some coop or something , but
Can you imagine all the red tape you would have to deal with in Ireland Especially if you were importing green waste to feed it, even if i had the money and the acerage to do it it would be the main thing that would put me off, think you'd be better off with a wind turbine or something.
Also the other side of the story which i have heard in germany is the price of maize and ground to plant maize has sky rocketed and it is all been planted to feed digestors putting out of reach for the dairy farmer to buy as feed for cow's so it could have more knock on effects to

reilig

Reagh wrote: »

if the government were perpared to pay the correct price per kilowatt then the digesters would be a top idea. If one were set up in an area of high livestock density then it would absolutely work. It would cut farmers cost immensely as they are currently hauling slurry across long distances, would create sustainable energy and the biogas plant would indeed charge gate fees. The farmer in Germany (on duncans show the other night.) is charging gate fees on his unit. It has a big capital cost but guaranteed returns are there if it is supported by the government in the same way as in Germany. Some of the larger farms would have sufficient quantities of slurry to make a major go of this idea. Obviously gate reciepts would need to be charged for others using the facility but i couldnt see this being a problem.

But we have a much less intensive system than they have in Germany. Over there, they have huge excess of slurry that they need to get rid of - they can't spread it all on land for fear of pollution. It makes sense for them to have Digestors because they can make a profit by taking in and charging for slurry.

Here, this would not happen. We don't have an excess of slurry at present because we don't farm as intensively as in germany - most of our animals are grass fed. Our slurry is spread back onto the land to grow crops and grass. Very little slurry in this country is hauled long distances unless for a specific reason. With the price of fertilizer this year, farmers will be making far more use of slurry available to them. Pig farmers are now charging €10 per 1000 gallons near to me for slurry that they once struggled to get rid of for free. Now they are making money from it.

Digestors won't happen here until we have a problem with getting rid of slurry. We have far better natural resources like wind, wave and water for generating renewable electricity rather than investing in something that we don't have the raw materials for.

Pharaoh1

reilig wrote: »

But we have a much less intensive system than they have in Germany. Over there, they have huge excess of slurry that they need to get rid of - they can't spread it all on land for fear of pollution. It makes sense for them to have Digestors because they can make a profit by taking in and charging for slurry.

Here, this would not happen. We don't have an excess of slurry at present because we don't farm as intensively as in germany - most of our animals are grass fed. Our slurry is spread back onto the land to grow crops and grass. Very little slurry in this country is hauled long distances unless for a specific reason. With the price of fertilizer this year, farmers will be making far more use of slurry available to them. Pig farmers are now charging €10 per 1000 gallons near to me for slurry that they once struggled to get rid of for free. Now they are making money from it.

Digestors won't happen here until we have a problem with getting rid of slurry. We have far better natural resources like wind, wave and water for generating renewable electricity rather than investing in something that we don't have the raw materials for.

Agree completely with Reilig on the slurry issue. Our local piggery is rationing their slurry at the moment.
Also how feasible is it to harvest grass continuously off land without the grazing stock returning nutrients to it during the grazing season and with slurry.
What about the massive chemical fertiliser inputs that would be needed to replenish the land?

blue5000

+1 relig
Didn't see the show myself, but AFAIK in Germany they get 50cents/unit for the electricity because it's from a renewable resource. What would we get here? probably 5 to 7 cents a unit.

Also cattle here are out in summer, what would feed the digester then?

Chevy RV

Interesting replies.

I thought he said that we had one of the highest bovine per capita ratios in the world so how come we don't have a problem with over supply of slurry that apparently exists in Germany?

Regards,

Chevy RV

reilig

Chevy RV wrote: »

Interesting replies.

I thought he said that we had one of the highest bovine per capita ratios in the world so how come we don't have a problem with over supply of slurry that apparently exists in Germany?

Regards,

Chevy RV

Germany feeds most of its animals indoors. They operate a lot of zero grazing systems and feed a lot of grain. All slurry and soiled water waste is collected in storage tanks 12 months of the year. in ireland, most of our animals are outdoors and eating grass for up to 9 months of each year.

blue5000

Chevy RV wrote: »

Interesting replies.

I thought he said that we had one of the highest bovine per capita ratios in the world so how come we don't have a problem with over supply of slurry that apparently exists in Germany?

Regards,

Chevy RV

bovine per capita what exactly do you think this means...

Ireland: 8m cows
4m ppl

germany:12m cows
90?m ppl

Not per hectare, it's per person, big difference, we have grass for cows, German cows are inside all year

Reagh

how could u agree totally wi realog? slurry is a massive problem in Ireland. Take the pig sector> They are currently in dire straits with the rise in feed costs and the industry is looking like it is decimated. To say that slurry does not need to be transported over long areas is pure trollop. That poster says pig farmers are charging 10e per thousand gallons?that must be in an area of very low pig density. if u take an area that is prominant in pig production such as cavan/monaghan then u can see the real costs involved in transporting the slurry maybe 30miles. The cost per pig sold of disposing slurry is around 2.50 per pig sold. this equated on an average pig unit of 450 sows to 25875e per year. Now cop on to yourself when talking abt them pig farmers making money from slurry.They are currently losing 15e per pig sold so the last thing they need is a twat coming on like u saying they making money from slurry. the cases u are thinking of are once off pig units in areas of low density and good arable land. 60% of units are in two counties in Ireland so to label everyone as the same in the pig game is pure nonsense.

ihatetractors

Reagh wrote: »

how could u agree totally wi realog? slurry is a massive problem in Ireland. Take the pig sector> They are currently in dire straits with the rise in feed costs and the industry is looking like it is decimated. To say that slurry does not need to be transported over long areas is pure trollop. That poster says pig farmers are charging 10e per thousand gallons?that must be in an area of very low pig density. if u take an area that is prominant in pig production such as cavan/monaghan then u can see the real costs involved in transporting the slurry maybe 30miles. The cost per pig sold of disposing slurry is around 2.50 per pig sold. this equated on an average pig unit of 450 sows to 25875e per year. Now cop on to yourself when talking abt them pig farmers making money from slurry.They are currently losing 15e per pig sold so the last thing they need is a twat coming on like u saying they making money from slurry. the cases u are thinking of are once off pig units in areas of low density and good arable land. 60% of units are in two counties in Ireland so to label everyone as the same in the pig game is pure nonsense.

Hows it Reiligs fault you set up miles away from your feed/waste diposal source?. Surely it's short sighted to set up there because 'Govt wanted to introduce employment to these areas'. In my area with excelent tillage land pig producers are few and far between and any that are around are making a mint selling slurry.

F.D

Maybe i'm missing something but i think its actually the maize that is the key for these things working economically
slurry does not have enough Dm i think is what they said ?
now i'm no expert i could be wrong

vincenzolorenzo

Reagh wrote: »

how could u agree totally wi realog? slurry is a massive problem in Ireland. Take the pig sector> They are currently in dire straits with the rise in feed costs and the industry is looking like it is decimated. To say that slurry does not need to be transported over long areas is pure trollop. That poster says pig farmers are charging 10e per thousand gallons?that must be in an area of very low pig density. if u take an area that is prominant in pig production such as cavan/monaghan then u can see the real costs involved in transporting the slurry maybe 30miles. The cost per pig sold of disposing slurry is around 2.50 per pig sold. this equated on an average pig unit of 450 sows to 25875e per year. Now cop on to yourself when talking abt them pig farmers making money from slurry.They are currently losing 15e per pig sold so the last thing they need is a twat coming on like u saying they making money from slurry. the cases u are thinking of are once off pig units in areas of low density and good arable land. 60% of units are in two counties in Ireland so to label everyone as the same in the pig game is pure nonsense.

No need to be getting personal about it. He was simply telling you what the situation is around him.

Personally I don't think a commercial scale digester will be viable here for the foreseeable future. As mentioned previously they need a constant supply of slurry all year round and our current agri system doesn't provide for that. In Ireland most animals spend well over half the year on the land and farmers only have to provide for 3 months (?) slurry storage

reilig

Are you calling me a twat just because pointed out something that you didn't know?????????????

I live near enough to large scale pig farms in cavan and monaghan. While we have a pig farm close to home, I know loads of farmers in cavan and monaghan who are currently paying for pig slurry from their local piggery. read the farmers journal. Pig slurry is in demand all over the country. Pig slurry from Monagahan is being brough by lorry from farms in cavan to westmeath and meath and the pig farmers are getting paid for their slurry. Why would they pay at the gate of a digestor when they can get rid of their slurry for free and get paid for it in most cases????

No pig farmer will lose money on slurry this year!!

Reagh wrote: »

how could u agree totally wi realog? slurry is a massive problem in Ireland. Take the pig sector> They are currently in dire straits with the rise in feed costs and the industry is looking like it is decimated. To say that slurry does not need to be transported over long areas is pure trollop. That poster says pig farmers are charging 10e per thousand gallons?that must be in an area of very low pig density. if u take an area that is prominant in pig production such as cavan/monaghan then u can see the real costs involved in transporting the slurry maybe 30miles. The cost per pig sold of disposing slurry is around 2.50 per pig sold. this equated on an average pig unit of 450 sows to 25875e per year. Now cop on to yourself when talking abt them pig farmers making money from slurry.They are currently losing 15e per pig sold so the last thing they need is a twat coming on like u saying they making money from slurry. the cases u are thinking of are once off pig units in areas of low density and good arable land. 60% of units are in two counties in Ireland so to label everyone as the same in the pig game is pure nonsense.

quietsailor

There is currently a large scale digestoer in the planning process in Kilmallock, Co Limerick, Limerick County Council Link

I don't have any of the feasibility studies unfortunately

38man

vincenzolorenzo wrote: »

No need to be getting personal about it. He was simply telling you what the situation is around him.

Personally I don't think a commercial scale digester will be viable here for the foreseeable future. As mentioned previously they need a constant supply of slurry all year round and our current agri system doesn't provide for that. In Ireland most animals spend well over half the year on the land and farmers only have to provide for 3 months (?) slurry storage

well if u had a digester u double the fertiliser available to grass say spreding it after digested would double nitrogen and change it from orgainc to ammonia
which would mean say a 1000 gl tank is = to 2 bags fertiliser
after digestion it would be = 4 bags so it would grow twice as much
all digesting would do take gas from it you still have to draw slurry away and spread it ater its digested but would be in a more stable material and not be spread up in air like raw slury u lose alot on sunny days nitrogen mixes while splash plateing on back of tank
ur cost of haulage would double and would save on farmers fertiliser bills but gas from slurry not suitable for transport vechicle
need 21 cents a kw per unit to be viable
there just paying 10 cent here in uk its 20cent approx

but doing this small scale is only way would heat ur home produce electricity

the fact cows are out in summer u just need to use your resources and store em when u need too lose a bit of gas over 6mths summer but could use a bit of maize or our bonemeal thats been exported or any organic product but grass would not be any good as it too much like lignun or woody too hard to break down unless u had a dead animal to increase magets for eating bacteria in it

maize is far better that why there building them all over europe as a feeed stock

wat we need here is small one that could handle say 100000 gls say build for a bout 100000 euro less hauling means less waste
as for pigs is a cost of up to 4 euro a pig produced or maybe more per pig with diesel up
but there too many pig farmers in cavan/monaghan should not off been alowed by planning laws
cattle slurry has more gas in it than pigs the cost of tecknology a problem large scale
small scale if we had incentives led by goverment

reilig

A guy called John Flynn carried out a major feasibility study on an anaerobic digestor in Ballybay County Monaghan - right in the heart of pig country.
The development association in Ballybay has hundreds of folders of research and information about them and about the feasibility study where it was found to be a totally unviable venture.

If anyone is interested in seeing the information, they can go to Ballybay Development Association and view the research. Its a few years since I was there, but the ultimate result of the research was that while there may be 1 or 2 digestors built in ireland on a trial basis, until a significant profit can be made on the gate for the collection of slurry, a digestor would never pay for itself.

This year has shattered people's hopes - The increase in fertilizer costs puts slurry at a raw material in demand by farmers and they are willing to pay for it - especially high nitrogen pig slurry.

Reagh

to say pig farmers will not lose money on slurry this yr is pure triff. as i said the cost ranges from 2-3e per pig sold for slurry. i know of a large farmer charging 30e for slurry (6000gallons). This slurry is being transported between 5 and 35 miles. now how in the name of god would he be making money. take in a mans wages and 250e plus per day on fuel and repayments and repairs and u are out a lotta money in the yr. I know that the price of fertiliser has risen with the lift in commodities but that is not the principle reason farmers are looking for slurry - they are losing their shirt on every animal that goes out the gate and are tyring to recoup some losses on a product that is extremely benificial to land.

As for the man who reported 'short sitedness' of building in these areas. I can assure u there was no grant etc for men to start producing in areas such as cavan/monaghan and not kildare etc- people were not going to up and move to another area as these units were started twemty, thirty, forty odd yrs ago when one did not need such extensive paper work etc to get reid of slurry. at the time transport costs were less and mills etc were set up in close proximity to these areas and not in tillage areas..

djmc

I know someone with a large piggery who looked into this and it would only pay if you could have a contract with local co councals to take waste and sewage and charge them a fee per load delivered.
Even then it would be a risk for cost of investment.

reilig

i know of a large farmer charging 30e for slurry (6000gallons).

He's losing money based on his own choice.

Pig farmers around here are charging €60 per 6000 gallons and draw it up to 10 miles and they cannot keep up to demand. Sure even the nitrate statements that we received are encouraging farmers to use pig slurry.

Slurry has been valued to the farmer at €30 per 1000 gallons in comparison to fertilizer. As a farmer, if you have the facilities for pig slurry and can get it at less than €30 per 1000gal, you'd be a fool to buy fertilizer instead of it.

Pharaoh1

I'm in the midlands and I went to my local piggery last week to give in the documentation to allow me to import the slurry.
The manager there says he will allow me only 4-5 tankers as there is such demand. Basically he is empty and he can only release what he is producing.

On the cost issue because of the distance my contractor will only spread one 2600 gal tanker per hour and his charge will be 40 euro per hour.
According to Reilig's figures it is still better for me to use slurry where I can.
The only issue might be the variability of the quality and nutrient value - ie poor quality very watery stuff might be just as expensive as chemical fertilizer.

Interestingly I had the impression from the Journal that pig farming is by and large a loss making business but the manager was a lot more upbeat and when I was there last year I noticed a lot of new building work and yard resurfacing going on.
They also put in cameras to monitor those who were drawing vast quantities of slurry out in the evenings.

djmc

Reagh wrote: »

to say pig farmers will not lose money on slurry this yr is pure triff. as i said the cost ranges from 2-3e per pig sold for slurry. i know of a large farmer charging 30e for slurry (6000gallons). This slurry is being transported between 5 and 35 miles. now how in the name of god would he be making money. take in a mans wages and 250e plus per day on fuel and repayments and repairs and u are out a lotta money in the yr. I know that the price of fertiliser has risen with the lift in commodities but that is not the principle reason farmers are looking for slurry - they are losing their shirt on every animal that goes out the gate and are tyring to recoup some losses on a product that is extremely benificial to land.

As for the man who reported 'short sitedness' of building in these areas. I can assure u there was no grant etc for men to start producing in areas such as cavan/monaghan and not kildare etc- people were not going to up and move to another area as these units were started twemty, thirty, forty odd yrs ago when one did not need such extensive paper work etc to get reid of slurry. at the time transport costs were less and mills etc were set up in close proximity to these areas and not in tillage areas..

Slurry is a very small cost compared to the cost of feed and the monopoly
the 2 factorys killing them in this country have
I know of 5 or 6 small piggerys gone out of buisness in the last few years including myself.
The main costs are feed, Esb, Oil, labour,drugs, and slurry can be a cost if you dont have a good land bank around the piggery if you do then you can at least save on fertiliser.
I dont think anyone is haveing a go at pig farmers claiming they are making big money were all farmers after all trying to make a living

donalfo

A bi-product from the AD system is a high quality, weed seed free, low pathogen fertilizer that is dry. Wet slurry goes in, dry fertilizer comes out, clean ground water and less run-off into waterways from farms. The REFIT (Renewable Energy Feed In Tariff) needs to be greatly improved to make it work here but it's a much better option than importing fossil fuels or relying on the wind to always blow. 1MW generation would need 4million Euro investment as opposed to 3.5mil for wind generation but there would be a constant supply.

Chevy RV

Hello Donaflo,


What kind of return do you think is available on say an investment of €4M?



Regards,


Chevy RV

donalfo

www.oireachtas.ie/documents/committees30thdail/.../reports/20110126.1.doc

This is a fairly good report on the viability of the system for Ireland, It was only written in January so it's up to date.

wclarke20

What about using the biogas for absorptive refrigeration for dairy farms? Would save on the cost of cooling milk?

darragh_haven

Just to add my 2 cent.
I've been building and running Anaerobic Digestion plants in Germany for 6 months up until christmas 2010. The companies i was working with systems were not relaiant on slurry or any waste product. It was a farming enterprise on its own.
Most animals in germany are housed all year round. But a percentage (somewhere between 20 to 30%) have gotten rid of all animal and are just growing the feedstock (mostly Bio-maize, with some grass silage) from their own land and feeding the diggester daily.
It is not fully viable in the republic of ireland yet. we only get 11 cent per Kwh at the moment, and it is supposed go to 13 cent for the sale of electricity, and 15 cent if you can use the heat off the engine. This is index linked to inflation.
Northern ireland gets 22/23 euro cent, while germany is around 23 cent at the moment but it is reducing gradully.
I would consider AD being viable here in ireland if the price was 17 to 18 cent per Kwh. Hopefully it will get to that in the next year or two.... I'd build one of my own:)

99nsr125

darragh_haven wrote: »

Just to add my 2 cent.
I've been building and running Anaerobic Digestion plants in Germany for 6 months up until christmas 2010. The companies i was working with systems were not relaiant on slurry or any waste product. It was a farming enterprise on its own.
Most animals in germany are housed all year round. But a percentage (somewhere between 20 to 30%) have gotten rid of all animal and are just growing the feedstock (mostly Bio-maize, with some grass silage) from their own land and feeding the diggester daily.
It is not fully viable in the republic of ireland yet. we only get 11 cent per Kwh at the moment, and it is supposed go to 13 cent for the sale of electricity, and 15 cent if you can use the heat off the engine. This is index linked to inflation.
Northern ireland gets 22/23 euro cent, while germany is around 23 cent at the moment but it is reducing gradully.
I would consider AD being viable here in ireland if the price was 17 to 18 cent per Kwh. Hopefully it will get to that in the next year or two.... I'd build one of my own:)

I thought there was at least one anerobic digester in Northern Ireland since the mid 80's,
not for power production but for processing of slurry into better quality fertiliser and heating
of outhouses from the methane and in that regard they work very well and are economically viable.

As previous people have stated the feed in tarriff is low, only way around that is scale
and to scavage/recover the heat like an artic plant but that gets expensive real fast.

darragh_haven

from 99nsr125. "As previous people have stated the feed in tarriff is low, only way around that is scale
and to scavage/recover the heat like an artic plant but that gets expensive real fast."[/QUOTE]

It is easy enough to use the heat off the CHP engine. the use of district heating in a built up area, or in a school or hospital. The gas can be piped up to 4 kms (the less distance the better) from the AD plant to the place where the heat is needed. 38% to 40% of the bio-gas ebergy is used by the engine to create electricty. Approx 40% of the energy is converted to heat by the engine which can be use to heat an installation. and 20% to 22% of the energy goes out the exhaust.

Corsendonk

Two built in the Republic. I say built as even do the Silverhill plant is listed as active I heard on the grapevine they rarely used it. The one in Kilkenny works because staff live nearly 24/7 with it. I know one food company looking at using digestors to get rid of food waste but the problem with digestors is they like a standard food supply and food waste is never consistent. Slurry seems more of a consistent product but you need dedicated and experienced staff to manage the system correctly.

http://www.anaerobic-digestion.com/html/ad_plants_in_the_uk.html

Silver Hill Duck Farm, Ireland. The feed stock is Duck slurry - Operational and large scale.

Ballytobin , Kilkenny, Ireland. Biogas Nord technology. The feed stock is Animal slurry, food processing wastes - Operational – small scale.

Recent AD Plant

bob charles

Corsendonk wrote: »

Two built in the Republic. I say built as even do the Silverhill plant is listed as active I heard on the grapevine they rarely used it. The one in Kilkenny works because staff live nearly 24/7 with it. I know one food company looking at using digestors to get rid of food waste but the problem with digestors is they like a standard food supply and food waste is never consistent. Slurry seems more of a consistent product but you need dedicated and experienced staff to manage the system correctly.

http://www.anaerobic-digestion.com/html/ad_plants_in_the_uk.html

there are a good few more than that. I live close to one and I also know of 3 potential plants either through or going through planning

rliston

There's one in Co. Limerick that has been running for a couple of years now.