A Dance with Dragons - 12 July 2011 [SPOILERS] - See Mod Post #4

adocholiday

Just finished today. Not a happy camper. Way too many minor characters introduced and sub plot after sub plot. It got to the point where I stopped looking up characters because it was taking forever to figure out who was who and what side they were on.

Loved the series up to AFFC now I'm not sure if I will even bother with the next one. I think its slipping away from Martin. He overcomplicated it to the point where he has so many plots he can't progress them. I would be fuming if I dropped 26 lids for this book

tbukela

Just finished. I can't decide if I liked it or not. Some twists were class but a few duds along the way. Pace has slowed and I thought the last third of the book wasn't great.
Hope it's not going to take years for the next book.

ixoy

Good article here about long-running fantasy series that spun out of control from their authors. GRRM's picture is at the very top...

Tenger

hidinginthebush wrote: »

This is something I've talked to friends in work about. We came to the conclusion that not a whole lot really happens in any of the books. I'm not gonna get into specifics, but every book pretty much only has one or 2 big events (he had only finished Clash of Kings at the time, I was trying to downplay the "big events" that transpire in Storm of Swords ). But it is very true that the whole series is very slow moving. ......

Must agree here. I was shocked at Season 1 only being 10 episodes, but they still managed to get all the relevant plot into it. S looking at this it shows how what you may think is a 'grand epic fantasy series' can be boiled down to a small number of plot lines.

Am only about 25% through it so far so far, definitely enjoying it but not a lot has happened so far except for

where the feck did the Young Griff being Rhaegar's son plot come from?

Raging_Ninja

Tenger wrote: »

where the feck did the Young Griff being Rhaegar's son plot come from?

It seems fairly artificial and contrived alright, as well as

how Tyrion figured out with no clues being given to the audience, he just pops out with it with it.

Sleepy

The hints Tyrion was working from that I can remember off-hand:

1. Hair dyed blue - hiding Valyrian Blonde hair
2. Travelling with a Westerosi man named "Griff" - Griffen(s) being the sigil of House Connington, Jon Connington being known to be in exile and a Targaryen loyalist
3. Also travelling with a "Septa" and a Maester who are educating him - only the children of nobility get such attention.

Not much to go on to be fair but Tyrion is supposed to be one of the cleverest men in the books...

5starpool

Sleepy wrote: »

The hints Tyrion was working from that I can remember off-hand:

1. Hair dyed blue - hiding Valyrian Blonde hair
2. Travelling with a Westerosi man named "Griff" - Griffen(s) being the sigil of House Connington, Jon Connington being known to be in exile and a Targaryen loyalist
3. Also travelling with a "Septa" and a Maester who are educating him - only the children of nobility get such attention.

Not much to go on to be fair but Tyrion is supposed to be one of the cleverest men in the books...

Did

Tyrion not play Cyvasse on the ship with the half maester lad 'for secrets' at one stage

Sleepy

Think you're right there...

Tenger

5starpool wrote: »

Did

Tyrion not play Cyvasse on the ship with the half maester lad 'for secrets' at one stage

This was a plot point. He had lulled the half-maester into thinking he was ****e at cyvasse.

I can see how Tyrion could have figured it out. He is same and aware of the history of the realm he lives in. As a reader I myself was thinking this kid is well set up for a sellsword's child with his multiple languages and sword skills. However I didn't imagine that reveal.

tbukela

Thought

he might have been Roberts son at some stage rather then a Targaryen. There surely can't be anymore heirs to the throne to come out.

ixoy

Tenger wrote: »

I can see how Tyrion could have figured it out. He is same and aware of the history of the realm he lives in. As a reader I myself was thinking this kid is well set up for a sellsword's child with his multiple languages and sword skills. However I didn't imagine that reveal.

Maybe I'm forgetting something but isn't it one hell of a coincidence that he just happened to end up on the ship with

the other Targarayen heir?

. Also seems to be handy, via coincidence, that he just happened to

bump into Ser Jorah

. It's as if Tyrion, wandering around a continent, just kept bumping into the most important people. Unless I'm missing something, it seems kind of sloppy writing.

JohnK

ixoy wrote: »

Maybe I'm forgetting something but isn't it one hell of a coincidence that he just happened to end up on the ship with

the other Targarayen heir?

. Also seems to be handy, via coincidence, that he just happened to

bump into Ser Jorah

. It's as if Tyrion, wandering around a continent, just kept bumping into the most important people. Unless I'm missing something, it seems kind of sloppy writing.

I dont think he just happened to end up on that ship with

the other Targarayen heir

, wasnt he was sent there by that rich dude who was friends with Varys? As for

Ser Jorah

yeah thats a bit of a stretch alright but not impossible.

ixoy

JohnK wrote: »

I dont think he just happened to end up on that ship with

the other Targarayen heir

, wasnt he was sent there by that rich dude who was friends with Varys?

Yeah, Ilyrio sent him but did Ilyrio know who he was sending him to? Or was it just someone from Westeros who turned out to be something more? And if he knew, then he presumably wanted Tyrion to figure it out.

As an aside, when it comes to Season 5 of the TV show, will they get the same actor to reprise his role of Ilyrio? He's in it for one minute in the first episode.

Raging_Ninja

ixoy wrote: »

Yeah, Ilyrio sent him but did Ilyrio know who he was sending him to? Or was it just someone from Westeros who turned out to be something more? And if he knew, then he presumably wanted Tyrion to figure it out.

I'd say he knew, since Illyrio and Varys are in cahoots.

ixoy wrote: »

As an aside, when it comes to Season 5 of the TV show, will they get the same actor to reprise his role of Ilyrio? He's in it for one minute in the first episode.

He was in another episode, where

Arya is chasing the cat down to where the dragon skulls are kept.

What I don't like is

how Aegon was written in. What, Varys and Illyrio have two Targaryens on the go at the same time? Why all the time and effort with Viserys and Daenerys when they have the direct heir to the throne on hand?

JohnK

ixoy wrote: »

Yeah, Ilyrio sent him but did Ilyrio know who he was sending him to? Or was it just someone from Westeros who turned out to be something more? And if he knew, then he presumably wanted Tyrion to figure it out.

My reading of it was that he knew alright and had been involved with keeping him hidden and alive the whole time.

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

What I don't like is

how Aegon was written in. What, Varys and Illyrio have two Targaryens on the go at the same time? Why all the time and effort with Viserys and Daenerys when they have the direct heir to the throne on hand?

Their best chance of a strong Targaryen ruler is to do it in the old Targaryen fashion which is inter-family marriage so they needed a male and female. My guess is they didnt think Viserys would be any good for their ends so they only kept Viserys alive as a diversion and were planning on Daenerys and Aegon the whole time. That way if anyone heard stories of a male Targaryen everyone would just assume it was Viserys

Tenger

JohnK wrote: »

My reading of it was that he knew alright and had been involved with keeping him hidden and alive the whole time.

My thoughts too.
However Doran Martell also alludes to a plan to marry Viserys to Arianne, perhaps then Dorne would have declared for the Targaryens? In another book someone mentioned about the Red Viper trying to 'raise Dorne for the Dragons' and how he was unsuccessful. ('Ravens flew') Could this have been Doran gauging a reaction to his plan?

I guess Varys and Illyrio were hedging their bets with 2 simultaneous plans?

Dades

Raging_Ninja wrote: »

What I don't like is

how Aegon was written in. What, Varys and Illyrio have two Targaryens on the go at the same time? Why all the time and effort with Viserys and Daenerys when they have the direct heir to the throne on hand?

The plan was for Daenerys to marry a Khal and get the weight of a Khalasar behind her return to Westeros.

That was plan A - it seems!

Tenger

Dades wrote: »

The plan was for Daenerys to marry a Khal and get the weight of a Khalasar behind her return to Westeros.

That was plan A - it seems!

A thing that is repeated in the lore is that baby/child rulers/lords are very easy to kill off. So the cheesemonger wanted to keep the heir hidden until he was of an age to inherit properly. By focusing Robert's attention on the sister and brother combo Illyrio/Varys could channel his attempts/fears.

Dades

That would fly in the face of the idea that they were ever intended to be "together". One being effectively a decoy.

I'm not sure one needs to explain why there are

two heirs on the go. Two escaped the rebellion, and like Luke and Leia they seperated them for safety and a plan devised for each of them!

fitz

Dades wrote: »

I'm not sure one needs to explain why there are

two heirs on the go. Two escaped the rebellion, and like Luke and Leia they seperated them for safety and a plan devised for each of them!

Bingo. Wouldn't read more into it than that...

ArthurG

Unbelievably, I'm still plodding through this 2 months after getting it. Granted I'd read the other books in a mad rush whilst on holiday, always better for getting the reading done. This one however is testing me - bar a few interesting events, nothing is happening.....

I'm getting this awful Robert Jordan mid-WOT feel (interminably long descriprions of things leading to pretty much nothing) at the moment, but perhaps its just my frame of mind.

I'll stick with it, but I'm not eagerly picking the thing up of an evening to hungrily devour the next chapter. Then again, I'm fairly bushed most evenings, so I could just be getting old and cranky.....

Dades

It took me 6 weeks, and while I did savour the experience I don't think it helps any large, verbose book to read it over a long period. (I had the same problem with The Passage). At least there were plenty of shock moments interspersed about it to keep one on their toes.

I may get the audiobook too, as it adds a whole new dimension to the story and Roy Dotrice's reading (and voicing) is phenomenal. Did it with the other 4 books.

SoTek72

Well that was very disappointing, really had to struggle in parts to keep reading.

Daenerys chapters seemed so unnecessary in parts. Really started to drag on.

Thought

Theons chapters as reek and the Boltons in general really made the book though, he had a great character arc.

Im not sure if seven books will be enough to finish the series if this is anything to go by.

astonaidan

Just finished the book their, Am I the only one seriously pissed off that GRRM feels the need to kill off so much characters, Every character ive set as my favourite one has been killed off:mad:

Dades

Nobody's dead until we read about crows pecking out the eyes from their staked heads, afaic.

There's been a few deaths that turn out to be less than permanent!

5starpool

I'm guessing that

the 'big' one at the end of the book

doesn't actually die either.

ixoy

Dades wrote: »

Nobody's dead until we read about crows pecking out the eyes from their staked heads, afaic.

Indeed. Even having your body smashed bloody isn't quite enough (

If you're a Targarayen heir

or

Reek, Reek rhymes with meek

).
Then again you can always come back zombie style too!

Sleepy

5starpool wrote: »

I'm guessing that

the 'big' one at the end of the book

doesn't actually die either.

I'd be amazed if

Martin killed off Jon. Himself, Bran and Arya are the only characters in the series I'd consider to have plot-armour

astonaidan

So what You saying my dreams about Ned still being alive in the Dungeons could be true and it was only a supreme lookalike

Tar.Aldarion

hopefully


oe of my friends still texts me, to this day saying..... 'ned noooooooooooooo'