A Dance with Dragons - 12 July 2011 [SPOILERS] - See Mod Post #4

Tenger

SK1979 wrote: »

.......its crazy some of the stuff that he's introduced in Dance.

Now that is a well worded teaser but doesn't spoil a thing for people like me who haven't started yet. All these spoiler tags are just trying to test my resolve........

sxt

Has anyone finished it yet ... How would you rate it to the others?

Tails142

Frustrating lack of progression would be the summary of my review.

A lot of cliffhangers and lack of certainty

over a few characters and whether or not they are dead

I just hope the next in the series doesn't take so long to come out.

jamezy

Tails142 wrote: »

Frustrating lack of progression would be the summary of my review.

A lot of cliffhangers and lack of certainty

over a few characters and whether or not they are dead

I just hope the next in the series doesn't take so long to come out.

Yeah my impression is that this book is a bit of a spring board for Winds of Winter. I did really enjoy ADWD but there was as you described there is a somewhat frustrating a lack of progression in some parts.

Tenger

jamezy wrote: »

Yeah my impression is that this book is a bit of a spring board for Winds of Winter. I did really enjoy ADWD but there was as you described there is a somewhat frustrating a lack of progression in some parts.

I would guess that despite the 5 year gap it really was the companion book to Feast. So it fleshed out the story rather than progressing it. (Still have to start reading it though!)

Sleepy

Martin intended there to be two more "events" but was persuaded to move them to the next book in order to avoid having to split the novel into two parts due to the limits of what's possible in book binding.

pljudge321

The impression I've always gotten has been that Martin had the first and ast parts of the series written out in his head and that Dance and Feast were the sort of shotgun style bridge between the two parts. Hopefully he's now on track and I can luck foward to possibly finishing the series before I turn thirty. (I'm 21 :eek:)

Cunning Alias

Just finished this last night, so im going to spoiler pretty much all of this.

Overall, I enjoyed it. The main thing that I kept thinking during the 2nd half of the book was that there were too many characters. I love how epic the scale of the series is, but spending little or no time on well established characters really bothered me. If the TV series gets this far, there are going to be massive rewrites.

As mentioned before, the "are they dead?" cliffhangers were not what I was looking for. Jon's attack/death seemed a bit pointless after everything that had happened. Going by the line "he never felt the 4th knife" I am guessing that he had moved to Ghost. Or he is just dead. This is Martin remember.

Really enjoyed Arya's 2 chapters. I'm looking forward to seeing how she progresses and her eventual return to the main storylines. Also enjoyed Victarion's chapters, even though nothing major happens.

Never enjoyed the Meereen parts until the end. It seemed like a lot of killing time waiting for the sh!tstorm that needed Quentyn, Tyrion and Victarion in the same place. Daenerys's whole story seemed a bit predictable. My theory is that things were supposed to flow from Quentyn/Barristan's big moves, to the battle at the city, then Victarion's entrance followed by Daenerys's return.

Maybe it is because I have read all of the books back to back over the last while and alot of the events are still fresh, but I was not happy with Theon's redemption arc. He needs to die. Horribly.

I could go on, but I will leave it at that for now. Let's hope that we are not waiting too long for the next one.

pljudge321

Cunning Alias wrote: »

Maybe it is because I have read all of the books back to back over the last while and alot of the events are still fresh, but I was not happy with Theon's redemption arc. He needs to die. Horribly.

You'd imagine having your mickey skinned and then not cut off untill you begged them to do it would be punishment enough.

Also apart from that did everyone get

Abel being Mance
The Frey Pie
Dany miscarrying at the end.
Jon being Azhor Azai

The Mance thing completely flew over my head till I read it on another forum which is funny seeing as its the least subtle out of the bunch.

anonymous_joe

pljudge321 wrote: »

You'd imagine having your mickey skinned and then not cut off untill you begged them to do it would be punishment enough.

Also apart from that did everyone get

Abel being Mance
The Frey Pie
Dany miscarrying at the end.
Jon being Azhor Azai

The Mance thing completely flew over my head till I read it on another forum which is funny seeing as its the least subtle out of the bunch.

Theon's behaviour makes far more sense after the introduction of the rest of his family. Asha's a bit of a bitch, but then you get to meet Euron and Victarion... Their introduction really rammed home why nobody likes the Iron Islanders.

As for general spoilers, I picked up a few, and the internet is great for noticing things I'd missed.

I'm still curious about whether Aegon or Dany is the Mummer's Dragon though, if either.

Cunning Alias

pljudge321 wrote: »

Abel being Mance
The Frey Pie
Dany miscarrying at the end.
Jon being Azhor Azai

Abel being Mance: Copped this when Abel's women were mentioned. I was looking for it though after Mance gives hints about his plan with women.
The Frey Pie: ????????
Dany miscarrying at the end: Figured as much. Not sure why it was put in though. Didn't seem relevant except to reinforce her prophesy.
Jon being Azhor Azai: Bar Jon's dream, is there any other hints at this?

Sleepy

In the wedding feast at Winterfell, Manderlay serves three "pork" pies after 3 Freys have gone missing...

fitz

pljudge321 wrote: »

You'd imagine having your mickey skinned and then not cut off untill you begged them to do it would be punishment enough.

Also apart from that did everyone get

Abel being Mance
The Frey Pie
Dany miscarrying at the end.
Jon being Azhor Azai

The Mance thing completely flew over my head till I read it on another forum which is funny seeing as its the least subtle out of the bunch.

All but

Jon being AA. I think the tears(salt)/smoking wounds/heraldry of Ser Patrek is a red herring. Dany is AA, the dragons are lightbringer, tempered by her sacrifice of Drogo. I've always thought that fits far more neatly than the convoluted theories people come up with about Jon.

In some ways, I hope he stays dead...there's been too many not-deaths. I also like the fact that he essentially did the same thing as Ned, ignoring impending doom while assuming everyone else would play by his sense of honour, and he got "killed" for it.

I don't think he'll be dead though. He'll warg into Ghost, and come back. Having said that, will he still be a member of the Watch from then on? I suspect not. I think he'll be one of the dragon riders, with Bran being the other. Dany will end up with the horn from Victarion, and thereby gain full control of Drogon, with guidance from Tyrion. I think Jon and Bran, as wargs, will be able to control Viserion (white dragon -> Jon Snow), and Rhaegal (green dragon -> Bran the Green-seer).

AnCapaillMor

So is he dead, will he survive or will Mellisandre do a Catelyn on him. Its one thing i love and hate about Martin, he keeps you guessing, is not just is he\she or isn't he\she, there's always 3rd or 4th possibility.

I loved the dornish prince hoping to control the dragons, any other writer would have him do it or escape, Martin gives him a nasty lingering death and the lovely description of melted eyeballs.

Never caught onto the meatpie thing, sounds cool, freys and boltons deserve it.

As for theon, wanted to hate him\despise him but he bolton jnr did give him a nasty time.

Definately got to read from book 1 again once i finish the malazan.

SK1979

Going to spoiler this question even!

Who do people think the "Silent Champion" who is joining the Kingsguard and will fight for Cersei in the trial by combat is? I am assuming its The Mountain somehow brought back to life by Qyburn?

Also, in relation to Theon, I have actually grown to like him and he's someone that I'm rooting for to survive. Ramsay Bolton is just the most evil character I've come across in years and you just hope he dies a horrible death sometime.

Sleepy

Almost definitely Gregor Clegane alright. There were too many references to his incomparable size and that of "Robert Strong", the work Qyburn was doing in the dungeons etc. for it not to be him really. That and the Hound lurking around on the Quiet Isle makes me think we'll see a Clegane Brothers battle to the death yet...

hidinginthebush

Just finished this morning, loved it!

What do people think of Ramsay Bolton's letter at the end to Jon, is Stannis' force really smahed and defeated and Mance is captured, or could it be a trick, though he seemed to know all the facts, hmmm...

Dany really started to piss me off in this book, she has spent too much time in Mereen IMO and needs to get home!

I would have like more Bran chapters, he was nearly the only character with development, and his chapters stopped pretty much halfway through, just as he starts learning to become a wrag, though I guessed every time Theon heard his name called in the weirwood at winterfell it was Bran.

I want Arya to come back to Westeros too, while it's good to have her chapters, I think Braavosi is pretty pointless in the grand scheme of things

And finaly, please don't let Jon be dead

5starpool

hidinginthebush wrote: »

Just finished this morning, loved it!

What do people think of Ramsay Bolton's letter at the end to Jon, is Stannis' force really smahed and defeated and Mance is captured, or could it be a trick, though he seemed to know all the facts, hmmm...

Dany really started to piss me off in this book, she has spent too much time in Mereen IMO and needs to get home!

I would have like more Bran chapters, he was nearly the only character with development, and his chapters stopped pretty much halfway through, just as he starts learning to become a wrag, though I guessed every time Theon heard his name called in the weirwood at winterfell it was Bran.

I want Arya to come back to Westeros too, while it's good to have her chapters, I think Braavosi is pretty pointless in the grand scheme of things

And finaly, please don't let Jon be dead

I'd be pretty confident that neither Jon nor Jaime are dead anyhow, although with GRRM who knows. The Stannis thing looks to be genuine, but the only way I can think of it not being is if the Karstark in the midst of Stannis' army abandoned them and knew about Mance being in Winterfell, which I admit is unlikely, as I'm not sure even Stannis knew. If they did attack and were beaten, why were Theon/Jeyne not captured again? It's not like they could go far in their state and with the snows.

Yep, Bran and Arya need to stop being so far away from things. Arya particularly has presumably several years or more ahead of her if she keeps up the faceless man training, and unless she abandons the temple, which she can do at any time, then she will be stuck there it seems. Bran presumably will be stuck there until after winter at this stage with the snow and the amount of others/wights outside the caves, unless there is a way back they haven't revealed yet.

Still millions of major plot points to tie up though overall in the story. I was going to say loose ends, but they are more than that.

Dragons/Dany's return - Will Drogo's former bloodrider, now a Khal himself, that they came upon at the end of the epilogue join to her with her dragon and help liberate Meereen and then Westeros?
Bran - Way up north, stuck with the children.
Arya - Training to be a killer in Braavos. I still think there is a chance that Syrio/Jaqen/The Kindly old man could turn out to be one and the same, and might end up bringing her to westeros again. unlikey, but possible.
Jon - Dead maybe, if not then who knows. Might be free to pursue Winterfell if he does live. Sam may also tell him Bran/Rickon are not dead.
Sam - Becoming a maester. Doesn't that take many years? nor sure how that fits in. Citadel also sent people to Dany.
Jaime/Brienne - I find it hard to believe that Brienne would sell Jaime out to save herself, so not sure how that will work. Maybe after she took him from the camp, they ran away together? I was going to say married, but the whole kingsguard thing prevents that being done openly.
Catelyn - Not sure what the point of keeping her alive in the first place was, apart from maybe to have someone still chasing Jaime.
Tyrion - He'll presumably get the second sons to join forces again with Dany and once my guess that loads of Dothraki come to her aid with the dragon as well and free Meereen once and for all, they will finally make for Westeros.
Aegon - Not sure how this will work out at all.
Sansa/Littlefinger - Again, not sure which way this will go.
Cersei - I'm guessing the younger prettier queen prophesised was Dany, not Margeary, and that she will see Tommen/Myrcella and possibly Jaime die in a battle to hold kings landing.#
The others/wights - Will there be a sweeping horde of them trying to find a way around or through the wall?


I also think that cracked horn that was mentioned a couple of times will turn out to be this Horn of Joramun that has been talked about lots.

Lots of random speculation there. Probably a few things I've missed out on even at that.

fitz

hidinginthebush wrote: »

Just finished this morning, loved it!

What do people think of Ramsay Bolton's letter at the end to Jon, is Stannis' force really smahed and defeated and Mance is captured, or could it be a trick, though he seemed to know all the facts, hmmm...

Well...

he didn't seem to get everything right. He doesn't have Theon or Jeyne, and doesn't know where they are, so his talk about Stannis could be a bluff. I wouldn't deem him a reliable source of information at this point.

Dany really started to piss me off in this book, she has spent too much time in Mereen IMO and needs to get home!

I'd hope that Mereen is wrapped up quickly in the next book. Dany not getting to Westeros feels like it's holding the story back. I reckon it's going to result in an eight book being needed to finish the series tbh...

I would have like more Bran chapters, he was nearly the only character with development, and his chapters stopped pretty much halfway through, just as he starts learning to become a wrag, though I guessed every time Theon heard his name called in the weirwood at winterfell it was Bran.

I think the next time we see Bran, he'll have progressed beyond a lot of the potentially tedious "green-seer 101" that I think was resulting in what Theon was hearing. We don't need POV for that.

I want Arya to come back to Westeros too, while it's good to have her chapters, I think Braavosi is pretty pointless in the grand scheme of things

Fully expecting a scene where she responds to the question of who she is with: "Arya Stark of Winterfell". At which point she'll recover Needle and return home. I think this will probably happen when she hears Jon is dead, which will be one of her regular three-new-things-that-she-has-learned.

And finaly, please don't let Jon be dead

Part of me hopes that he is, that Martin had the bottle to kill him off, which hasn't really happened to a main character in a while. I expect he'll be back though, and perhaps free of the Watch (having "died").

Tehol

Must admit to being a bit slow with figuring out who the bard and his women were. But got the Frey Pie right away

My thoughts:

Anyone else think the arrival of Aegon was last minute, just to help GRRM sort out the mess he had made with Dany? Dany has been hopelessly stuck in slaver bay with no easy way out (she could leave at any time but she would not go with out her freed slaves). Now Aegon comes out of nowhere, conquers Westeros in the next book, while Dany finally frees herself and sails home with her army. Then Aegon meets an untimely death (probably after marrying Margery Tyrell ) Dany get the throne and a whole kingdom (well the six southern kingdoms anyway). She can then go and settle matters in the North and Beyond the wall in the last book.

Pretty sure that Aegon will have to die because he is ahead of Dany in the line for the throne

fitz

Good ideas there, Tehol.

Don't agree here though:

Pretty sure that Aegon will have to die because he is ahead of Dany in the line for the throne

Aegon is Rhaegar's son. Rhaegar was Prince, not King, so the line of succession from Aerys would have been Rhaegar -> Viserys -> Dany, if there were no kids involved when the crown passed. Rhaegar died before Aerys though, so regardless of the fact that he had kids, Viserys then became heir. When he died, that would pass to Dany. The fact that Rhaegar never became King means Aegon never became heir. At least that's how I'd understand it...both would have a claim, but I would have thought Dany's is stronger.

Does that make sense?

5starpool

fitz wrote: »

Good ideas there, Tehol.

Don't agree here though:

Aegon is Rhaegar's son. Rhaegar was Prince, not King, so the line of succession from Aerys would have been Rhaegar -> Viserys -> Dany, if there were no kids involved when the crown passed. Rhaegar died before Aerys though, so regardless of the fact that he had kids, Viserys then became heir. When he died, that would pass to Dany. The fact that Rhaegar never became King means Aegon never became heir. At least that's how I'd understand it...both would have a claim, but I would have thought Dany's is stronger.

Does that make sense?

No,

Boys are ahead of girls in the line of succession there, so the son of the rightful heir is ahead of the daughter of the king.

Think of it in British terms. If Lizzie/Charles died (ignore Andrew/Edward for purposes of example) then William would be next king, not Lizzie's daughter Anne. If everyone thought William was dead and Anne was the only royal left alive, and therefore heir, but then the bould willie turned up, he would be still the heir.

I think that is a parallel anyhow.

Sleepy

fitz, you have it backwards

As soon as Rhaegar had kids, his heirs took precedence over Viscerys and Danaerys in the line of succession. Viscerys was only rightful heir as Rhaegar was killed and his heirs supposed dead at the hands of Gregor Clegane.

The line of succession here is the same as that in the UK: William comes before Edward and Andrew (can't believe I just compared Prince Charles to Rhaegar Targaryen!)

EDIT: beat me to it 5starpool though:

gender doesn't feature here as even were Danaerys male, she'd still be a younger brother and thus out-ranked in succession by her eldest brother's children

fitz

5starpool wrote: »

No,

Boys are ahead of girls in the line of succession there, so the son of the rightful heir is ahead of the daughter of the king.

Think of it in British terms. If Lizzie/Charles died (ignore Andrew/Edward for purposes of example) then William would be next king, not Lizzie's daughter Anne. If everyone thought William was dead and Anne was the only royal left alive, and therefore heir, but then the bould willie turned up, he would be still the heir.

I think that is a parallel anyhow.

Not sure about that. I don't think you can say that

boys are ahead of girls in the line of succession in Westeros. They might be in England, but there are enough references to past Queens to assume Dany could have a claim as heir.

But I suppose, what you an Sleepy are saying makes a deal of sense...in a convoluted way.

EDIT: Actually!! -

Myrcella and references to the succession rules of Dorne have just come back to me. Yes, there would seem to be a male preference in the Westerosi rules. Makes Aegon's appearance more interesting alright, though if Dany arrives home with a Khalasar and three dragons at her back, I can see Aegon bending the knee. Though probably more likely that they'll marry.

Sleepy

Gender does feature in Westerosi succession: Tommen was crowned ahead of Myrcella and Bran is heir to Winterfell ahead of Sansa. Only the Dornish recognise women equally in this regard. In the rest of Westeros, girls only inherit where no brothers survive (as Littlefinger considers to be the case with Sansa).

fitz

Sleepy wrote: »

Gender does feature in Westerosi succession: Tommen was crowned ahead of Myrcella and Bran is heir to Winterfell ahead of Sansa. Only the Dornish recognise women equally in this regard. In the rest of Westeros, girls only inherit where no brothers survive (as Littlefinger considers to be the case with Sansa).

Yeah, the Dornish aspect just occurred to me, and made sense of the whole thing. Having said all that, I don't think

Aegon turning up was just a tacked on idea to get around Dany's delay. It felt a bit more like something he'd planned for a while to me...

Sleepy

I'd agree. There were far too many mentions of

baby Aegon's head being "dashed off a wall" in the previous books for it not to have been planned to introduce him with the cover of "well, all babies look similar and one with it's head caved in would be unidentifiable"

fitz

Sleepy wrote: »

I'd agree. There were far too many mentions of

baby Aegon's head being "dashed off a wall" in the previous books for it not to have been planned to introduce him with the cover of "well, all babies look similar and one with it's head caved in would be unidentifiable"

Bingo.

Tehol

Can't see Aegon bending knee to Dany. He is the rightful heir. Can't see Dany forcing him either as that would make her no better than the Usurper and his dogs!

fitz

Tehol wrote: »

Can't see Aegon bending knee to Dany. He is the rightful heir. Can't see Dany forcing him either as that would make her no better than the Usurper and his dogs!

I think marriage is the most likely outcome tbh. But, regardless of the existing tradition of male preference in succession, what if Dany doesn't accept that as a valid rule, and (as I think she will) sees herself as the rightful heir? Again, it comes back to marriage being a likely resolution.