The Official Cavan GAA Discussion thread.

Tom Joad

Jampip wrote: »

Eugene Keating, David Givney, Alan Clarke, Philip Tinnelly and Kevin Tierney are five that immediately spring to mind. In my opinion at least three of those would have been better to bring on than one of the starters on Sunday. 3 of them easily would have been better than the subs that came on. I previously spoke about our weak bench and I think that could be seen on Sunday. You can also pull out all the soundbites. I don't believe those. Maybe I'm a raving lunatic but its my opinion. We'll agree to disagree on it.

Now, you're doing a magnificent job of avoiding all the questions I ask by the way. I don't think you've dealt with one yet. Yet I'm the one "deflecting".

Ok they are the players that left because of the issues with management - think that one has been refuted. Rest of that paragraph is completely irrelevant to the question (but you do make a valid point and I also agreed that we have a weak bench).

So in summary, we have concluded after all that there is no evidence of a big anti-hyland group in the county. There is no evidence of players leaving because of issues with management.

I'm not sure what questions I've missed or avoided but throw them out there and happy to deal with them.

What I said was

Quick google gives contemporaneous stories from local and national media as well as hoganstand about Cavan players unhappy with Liam Austin and Val Andrews. Do we believe now that everything has changed the players under current management have taken some kind of code of omerta

There's what I googled - knock yourself out if you want to follow the links

https://www.google.ie/?gws_rd=cr,ssl&ei=lb5oVaKfM6WE7gaGtoOYCg#q=players+unhappy+with+manager+Cavan

In my trying to remember what I googled last time - came across this article which is interesting - Ronan Flanagan on having a Cavan man" in charge.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/homegrown-manager-a-must-for-cavan-football-to-thrive-insists-flanagan-29372609.html

There was also an excellent article by Paul Fitz in the Celt around the time of Seaniegate where he was talking about the vicious circle that is Cavan football - can't find it now of course but someone here might recall it. Basic point was we keep getting rid of managers, go for an outside guy who comes in and clears out the current panel, needs 3-5 years to rebuild his own panel, results go bad he gets sacked and away we go again.

I think for the first time we have stopped that vicious cycle and thats why I feel we need stability and continuity whenever Hyland's term ends - I would see Danny Brady as eventually being that person - maybe with Larry and Peter on board too.

I do think if we stick with this system and set-up and a few decent forwards come from somewhere we could be a serious outfit.

Jampip

KeepTheFaith wrote: »

Jampip maybe it got lost in the melee earlier today but I'd be genuinely interested as to why you think McStay or McEntee could bring Cavan to the next level? Also, do you believe that our players are under performing because of poor management?

Good question. The first thing we need is someone who can read the game better and make better tactical calls during a match. Terry is too weak at this for me.

For example, Joe Kernan was fit to say that Argue should move out the pitch at half time or we needed a forward to play off him. Why wasn't Terry? Even when we are chasing games, there's no intensity. We toddle along at the same pace when we're five points down with five minutes left.

I also think the panel had gone stale. We all remarked how easy it is to pick the starting 15. Argue at full forward was expected. He took a risk with Galligan but a goalie isn't going to have a huge impact on the match.

If I was to try any player at full forward, it'd be Gearoid. I don't think he's mobile enough for midfield and his fitness isn't where it needs to be.

I've already said I think players are under performing. Roscommon are no better than us IMO and were promoted. Yes, we stayed up but we blew the chance of promotion losing two of our three home games. We were the only team Kildare beat iirc.

Terry's also been involved six years and the players are still ill disciplined at times and teams like Tyrone/Monaghan make us look naive. For example, Kildare came down and bullied us on our own pitch and we were the ones that ended up with 14 men.

Jampip

Tom Joad wrote: »

Ok they are the players that left because of the issues with management - think that one has been refuted. Rest of that paragraph is completely irrelevant to the question (but you do make a valid point and I also agreed that we have a weak bench).

So in summary, we have concluded after all that there is no evidence of a big anti-hyland group in the county. There is no evidence of players leaving because of issues with management.

I'm not sure what questions I've missed or avoided but throw them out there and happy to deal with them.

What I said was

There's what I googled - knock yourself out if you want to follow the links

https://www.google.ie/?gws_rd=cr,ssl&ei=lb5oVaKfM6WE7gaGtoOYCg#q=players+unhappy+with+manager+Cavan

In my trying to remember what I googled last time - came across this article which is interesting - Ronan Flanagan on having a Cavan man" in charge.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/homegrown-manager-a-must-for-cavan-football-to-thrive-insists-flanagan-29372609.html

There was also an excellent article by Paul Fitz in the Celt around the time of Seaniegate where he was talking about the vicious circle that is Cavan football - can't find it now of course but someone here might recall it. Basic point was we keep getting rid of managers, go for an outside guy who comes in and clears out the current panel, needs 3-5 years to rebuild his own panel, results go bad he gets sacked and away we go again.

I think for the first time we have stopped that vicious cycle and thats why I feel we need stability and continuity whenever Hyland's term ends - I would see Danny Brady as eventually being that person - maybe with Larry and Peter on board too.

I do think if we stick with this system and set-up and a few decent forwards come from somewhere we could be a serious outfit.

Depends what circles you move in. I work in Cavan town in a place with a lot of people involved with club teams and a lot wouldn't be Terry's greatest fans. I'd also suggest you look at Hogan Stand forum. It may be full of crap but there's plenty of anti Hyland posts there.

You can also believe what you want about players. Two posters have agreed above that they have heard otherwise about Keating and Givney for example. As one poster said, there's no smoke without fire.

Re questions, I asked for articles about players who spoke out during a managers tenure. That article was after Val left and the players actively refuted that they called a meeting to oust Andrews.

So, I'll ask the question again, have you any examples of players who spoke out about active managers after leaving a panel?

I don't think outside managers can be blamed for clearing out the panel. The quality simply wasn't there so it's no surprise there was a high turnover of players. Al the managers spoke out about the lack of commitment. Three successive managers mentioned it. I don't know how you can blame that on outside men. The turnover of managers was too high but we shouldn't go the other way now. How many current managers are six years with their teams? Not many.

I also asked you about the media. Is it normal for a team to bring commentators and reporters to a "training camp" and immerse them with the team?

And if Joe Kiernan could say at half time that Cavan needed to move Argue out or out in a small forward to play off him, why couldn't Terry?

cavan4sam

One player that springs to mind along with Mark mcKeever who could have made a difference last sunday would have been John McCutcheon they'd have been tougher and cuter than lyng

Edit...i do know he's not on the panel but have been told he's playing quite well at the minute

Jampip

cavan4sam wrote: »

One player that springs to mind along with Mark mcKeever who could have made a difference last sunday would have been John McCutcheon they'd have been tougher and cuter than lyng

Edit...i do know he's not on the panel but have been told he's playing quite well at the minute

I still can't understand how Josh Hayes was maor uisce. One of our most reliable players who is criminally underused.

KeepTheFaith

Jampip wrote: »

Good question. The first thing we need is someone who can read the game better and make better tactical calls during a match. Terry is too weak at this for me.

For example, Joe Kernan was fit to say that Argue should move out the pitch at half time or we needed a forward to play off him. Why wasn't Terry? Even when we are chasing games, there's no intensity. We toddle along at the same pace when we're five points down with five minutes left.

I also think the panel had gone stale. We all remarked how easy it is to pick the starting 15. Argue at full forward was expected. He took a risk with Galligan but a goalie isn't going to have a huge impact on the match.

If I was to try any player at full forward, it'd be Gearoid. I don't think he's mobile enough for midfield and his fitness isn't where it needs to be.

I've already said I think players are under performing. Roscommon are no better than us IMO and were promoted. Yes, we stayed up but we blew the chance of promotion losing two of our three home games. We were the only team Kildare beat iirc.

Terry's also been involved six years and the players are still ill disciplined at times and teams like Tyrone/Monaghan make us look naive. For example, Kildare came down and bullied us on our own pitch and we were the ones that ended up with 14 men.

Why do you think McEntee and McStay are so tactically astute? Can you name any specific tactical changes they made when games were going wrong which changed the course of things?
It sounds to me like you're throwing out two names of managers that are currently the cool names in Gaelic football. You would have seen a very limited amount of displays of the Brigids and Cross teams, presumably only the games on tv unless you happen to go to club games. But perhaps I'm wrong maybe you can prove your point here?

I don't get the Joe Kernan reference? He gave an opinion, it doesn't make it gospel? Shane Curran and Ciaran Whelan also gave opinions on Sunday and we all know what they were like... If Kernan's opinion was so infallible he would have done better with Galway I'd have thought.

As for Gearoid at full forward, a terrible idea. He's at his best breaking from deep. He's one of our best players we want him on the ball as much as possible. He breaks tackles, he draws men in. Isolating him in a full forward line where he's only going to see a limited number of possessions per game would be madness.

As for Cavan toddling along with 5 minutes of games left, it doesn't sit well with the facts.
Roscommon game, came back hammer and tongs at them chasing the game and got a draw.
Laois game, we were chasing the game and caught them, drove the game home and down Laois' throats until the final whistle.
Down game, fought bravely til the end despite being a man down, Argue taken out when storming through right at the death.
Galway game, chased the game game into the second half and upped the intensity until Galway buckled and showed they didn't have the mettle we had. All showed great heart and pride and intensity and honesty of effort. All ignored because it doesn't sit well with the agenda.

Anglo Celt podcast is good this week. They were saying McEnroe had been told he was on his very final warning and that's why he had to come off.

Jampip

KeepTheFaith wrote: »

Why do you think McEntee and McStay are so tactically astute? Can you name any specific tactical changes they made when games were going wrong which changed the course of things?
It sounds to me like you're throwing out two names of managers that are currently the cool names in Gaelic football. You would have seen a very limited amount of displays of the Brigids and Cross teams, presumably only the games on tv unless you happen to go to club games. But perhaps I'm wrong maybe you can prove your point here?

I don't get the Joe Kernan reference? He gave an opinion, it doesn't make it gospel? Shane Curran and Ciaran Whelan also gave opinions on Sunday and we all know what they were like... If Kernan's opinion was so infallible he would have done better with Galway I'd have thought.

As for Gearoid at full forward, a terrible idea. He's at his best breaking from deep. He's one of our best players we want him on the ball as much as possible. He breaks tackles, he draws men in. Isolating him in a full forward line where he's only going to see a limited number of possessions per game would be madness.

As for Cavan toddling along with 5 minutes of games left, it doesn't sit well with the facts.
Roscommon game, came back hammer and tongs at them chasing the game and got a draw.
Laois game, we were chasing the game and caught them, drove the game home and down Laois' throats until the final whistle.
Down game, fought bravely til the end despite being a man down, Argue taken out when storming through right at the death.
Galway game, chased the game game into the second half and upped the intensity until Galway buckled and showed they didn't have the mettle we had. All showed great heart and pride and intensity and honesty of effort. All ignored because it doesn't sit well with the agenda.

Anglo Celt podcast is good this week. They were saying McEnroe had been told he was on his very final warning and that's why he had to come off.

McStay I would have rated even before Brigids won the club All-Ireland. He's been on The Sunday Game for a long time now and I rate his opinions. I am also close friends with a Roscommon man who played for McStay for a few years in the noughties at Brigids. He speaks very highly of him. McEntee I rate because of a lot of the articles I read on Gaelic Life about him. I also think a manager from Ulster is the way we need to go. Terry has these lads functioning as a team better than ever before but, for me, we're still too soft, naïve and lacking in the dark Ulster arts (if you want to call it that) that other counties employ. If you want me to throw out the name of a less fancied manager, I think we should have looked at Justin McNulty a few years back. He coached Mullahoran to a senior championship and did a good job with Laois and I think he could have done a job for Cavan. It's probably too late now though. He's entered politics.

I didn't say Kernan was infallible. Re the reference, I said it because he gave an opinion on TV at the time that I feel was correct. Cavan needed to either move Argue out the field or move a player in to play off him. Martin McHugh, Tomas O'Se and Joe Brolly all said the same. So, if all of these people could read the game, why couldn't Terry Hyland? I don't know what went wrong for Joe in Galway. He was only there a year so things clearly didn't work out. He did deliver three club All-Irelands in four years for Crossmaglen though and also delivered Armagh an All-Ireland, four Ulsters and one league in seven years. Here's an article saying Galway wanted him to stay but wanted to change his backroom team which he wouldn't accept so he walked away:

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/joe-kernan-why-i-had-to-quit-galway-job-26669404.html

Re Whelan, I rate him as a pundit. He made one mistake and people are pilloring him for it. He probably thought McRory Cup was U21 for all he knows about it I'd say. He was very complimenatry towards us two years ago when Joe Brolly was throwing out all the Black Death drivel.

McKiernan for me isn't a midfielder. He isn't mobile enough. He's not fit enough. Why not even start him at full forward and move him out the pitch later on? He clearly can't last seventy minutes at midfield. He lacks the fitness for midfield, Argue lacks the physicality for full forward. I think Gearoid has that physicality. Part of Terry's problem I think was he also played all our cards from the start. Clerkin, on the other hand, kept a few up his sleeve, such as introducing Colin Walshe and Dick Clerkin late on when Cavan had tired. We simply had no answer for them because we'd gone all out from the start and our bench is weak. I'd also point out - Michael Murphy is a better player than McKiernan, Jim McGuiness a better manager than Hyland and you don't see him having a problem with sticking his star player at full forward when needed.

You give a very colourful description of our league games. Reading that description, you'd struggle to think that we lost as many as we won. My point was that, when we're losing with five to ten minutes left, we don't up the intensity and try to pressurise the other team. Bar the Roscommon game, we weren't losing any of those matches with a ten to fifteen minute period left. That game was also tit-for-tat late on. The Laois game, they were only in touch because of a couple of soft goals we had let in. We were clearly the better team and were leading through nearly all of the second half. You must remember a different Down game to me. I remember an atrocious game for both sides and I remember standing on the terrace in Breffni thinking, we could play for a half hour here and not even get the two points we need to draw this game such was our lack of a scoring threat. The Meath game we allowed to slip through our grasp and there was no great rush at the end to try and wrestle back a victory. As I said, we plod along during a game under our system trying to get a victory and if that's not working with five to ten minutes left, there's not much else we can employ. Did you see any marked change in the Armagh game last year or the Roscommon League final game?

I haven't listened to the podcast to be honest. As I've already stated, I fail to see the point of a lot of the GAA media within the county due to its extreme bias. Why did McEnroe get a final warning? I've watched the full game back on both RTE and BBC and I can't see anything that he supposedly did at the start of the second half to warrant the referee giving him a last warning. The coverage didn't show the referee speaking to him either iirc.

I seem to be painted as some sort of Hyland hater here but that couldn't be further from the truth. Terry, and to a lesser extent Val Andrews, have to be praised greatly for the work that has been put into this team. They made tough and hard decisions and we are seeing the benefits. That said, Terry is now into his fifth year of being involved (2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015) and discipline is still poor, we can be hugely naïve and we lack a scoring threat of any significance. Also, why hasn't Terry done something about his assistant making an idiot out of himself on the sideline in every game? I don't know how his head coach, or selector or whatever he is can even be watching the game when he is busy throwing himself around the place. Any favour we could hope to have from the officials is also quick to disappear I would think.

In BBC commentary, it was also noted a number of times that Monaghan were playing poorly and didn't seem hungry, yet they still ground out the win. I still wonder if its a case of Monaghan coming to Breffni and playing poorly but still leaving with the win. The qualifiers will show that. I know the number of turnovers for us on Monaghan was very high - you could say that was us being good at gaining possession or Monaghan just being sloppier than normal.

KeepTheFaith

I'm not even going to start arguing all your points Jampip. You're determined to see nothing but the negatives, you expect absolute perfection from management and your expectations of what this group of players are capable of is entirely unrealistic.
I guarantee you this though, you and 'supporters' like you will never be happy with a Cavan manager. So we'll have to agree to differ.

Donegal looking very ominous on the other side of the Minor draw. We shouldn't be looking beyond Antrim but if we do beat them, the odds would be telling us our next two opponents would be Donegal and Dublin.

Jampip

KeepTheFaith wrote: »

I'm not even going to start arguing all your points Jampip. You're determined to see nothing but the negatives, you expect absolute perfection from management and your expectations of what this group of players are capable of is entirely unrealistic.
I guarantee you this though, you and 'supporters' like you will never be happy with a Cavan manager. So we'll have to agree to differ.

Donegal looking very ominous on the other side of the Minor draw. We shouldn't be looking beyond Antrim but if we do beat them, the odds would be telling us our next two opponents would be Donegal and Dublin.

That's a real cop out response. What's negative about saying Gearoid should be tried away from midfield? If you don't have the answer to a reasonable and explained argument then just say so.

I don't like being overly negative but someone has to weigh out the overly positive views of some. We even have lads like yourself inventing strain on relationships that you later admit you know doesn't exist.

Regarding your cheap shot at "supporters" like me, I've been quite happy with a Cavan manager for a number of years now.

As I said though, I now feel this manager has brought the players as far as he can. That's no under achievement given the level we were at when he came in.

To sum up Cavan football at the minute, I would say there's alot done but more to do.

KeepTheFaith

Reasonable and explained argument? I must have missed that bit. I never really thought I'd be explaining as to why our best midfielder since Dermot McCabe shouldn't be played at midfield.. I'm from west Cavan, I've watched Gearoid all through underage at Club and County level.
As I've already said, he is at his absolute best breaking from deep. Virtually all of his scores at county level come from breaking past the 45, once he gets moving he's very hard to stop. His pace over the first 10 yards or so is nothing to write home about. If you place him at full forward you deprive yourself of that option, you deprive yourself of him breaking tackles and drawing other players towards him.
So say you do go and put him at full forward, what are you looking for from him? He's not anything special in terms of speed over a short distance so you're not going to spray ball to the corners for him to collect. He's not as tall as Argue and can't field the ball as well as Argue so he's not going to have as much success if you rain ball in on top of him. He's a big man and his main asset is the momentum he generates moving forward, put him at full forward and you'll have him, for the most part, collecting the ball with his back to goal.
You say that he's not mobile enough. Gearoid is our attacking option in the midfield partnership, the majority of his work is done from midfield forward. Do you want him back putting in tackles in the full back line? No, you want him contesting kickouts, and driving forward, which he does very very well.
Then you have to question what you do at midfield if you do play him at full forward. Argue at midfield presumably. That's no bad replacement. But when we're finally getting a midfielder with experience and know how out around the middle should we really be replacing that with a highly talented but inexperienced 21 year old? You say Argue doesn't have the physicality for full forward so why does he have it for midfield, or do you have another midfield partnership in mind?

Gearoid would no doubt do just fine at ff, but it would be a square peg in a round hole. It takes a lot more to be a proper full forward than height and strength.

Jampip

KeepTheFaith wrote: »

Reasonable and explained argument? I must have missed that bit. I never really thought I'd be explaining as to why our best midfielder since Dermot McCabe shouldn't be played at midfield.. I'm from west Cavan, I've watched Gearoid all through underage at Club and County level.
As I've already said, he is at his absolute best breaking from deep. Virtually all of his scores at county level come from breaking past the 45, once he gets moving he's very hard to stop. His pace over the first 10 yards or so is nothing to write home about. If you place him at full forward you deprive yourself of that option, you deprive yourself of him breaking tackles and drawing other players towards him.
So say you do go and put him at full forward, what are you looking for from him? He's not anything special in terms of speed over a short distance so you're not going to spray ball to the corners for him to collect. He's not as tall as Argue and can't field the ball as well as Argue so he's not going to have as much success if you rain ball in on top of him. He's a big man and his main asset is the momentum he generates moving forward, put him at full forward and you'll have him, for the most part, collecting the ball with his back to goal.
You say that he's not mobile enough. Gearoid is our attacking option in the midfield partnership, the majority of his work is done from midfield forward. Do you want him back putting in tackles in the full back line? No, you want him contesting kickouts, and driving forward, which he does very very well.
Then you have to question what you do at midfield if you do play him at full forward. Argue at midfield presumably. That's no bad replacement. But when we're finally getting a midfielder with experience and know how out around the middle should we really be replacing that with a highly talented but inexperienced 21 year old? You say Argue doesn't have the physicality for full forward so why does he have it for midfield, or do you have another midfield partnership in mind?

Gearoid would no doubt do just fine at ff, but it would be a square peg in a round hole. It takes a lot more to be a proper full forward than height and strength.

You previously stated that my "expectations of what this group of players are capable of is entirely unrealistic" and now you're likening Gearoid McKiernan to Dermot McCabe! What's the point of having him at midfield to break from deep if he's not fit to do that at the time we need him most? You ignored one of my key points and the reason McKiernan isn't a midfielder - he isn't fit enough to play midfield for seventy minutes, he struggles after 50. Very few footballers are fir for 70 minutes in that position. Even Dublin often have players like Denis Bastick to come on. You list attributes there that McKiernan does have but the fact is that he fades out of games because of his fitness levels. I can only imagine that's why Terry chose to move him to the 40 for the bulk of the Monaghan game. One question for you - what did you think of his second half performance

I'm looking for him to get in there and play a Murphy or Donaghy type role at FF. To break the ball down for those around him and take a chance when he gets it. For me, he has the potential to be a real handful. He's not as tall as Argue, very few are, but he's a more physicla presence for the jostling that any full back is going to engage in. Argue is also a better fielder I agree so is better suited out the field to provide support at kick outs.

Argue isn't in his best position at midfield either. The best position for Argue IMO is on the 40 providing support at kick outs. I'd put Killian Clarke at midfield with Corr. Clarke has a physical presence and has a bit of attitude about him. He rarely gets booked yet he's more than capable of looking after himself and he's more mobile than McKiernan. The only problem would be his wayward shooting. Truth be told, Clarke is also the ace in our pack, a better all round footballer than McKiernan. He's also more of an athlete. There's also no reason McKiernan couldn't drop out to midfield late on when his fitness has been preserved to drive the team forward. That said, he'd want to work on his leadership qualities because you rarely see him grab a game by the scruff of the neck like the aforementioned McCabe could.

I'll presume you agree with my other points from post 3698 as you are incapable of debating them.

Jampip

Tom Joad wrote: »

So in summary you argument was - there is a big anti-Hyland camp in the county - I and others have refuted this - you have then come up with some tinfoil hat stuff about management infiltrating the media and that is why you can't produce any evidence of this.

Interesting how you lads were falling over yourselves to reply to me last Friday but now you've all gone quiet.

I think this week's Celt is very apt for a response to this. You know of no anti-Hyland camp in the county yet this week's Celt has a full article from the Sports Editor titled "Lay off this senior team setup". Who is he addressing here if there's no one in the county criticising Hyland?

Interesting, also, that the media, which surely isn't influenced despite the connections I have mentioned, are jumping to Terry's defence.

Crash Bang Wall

Terry like all managers has his flaws. He steadied the ship and has us competitive again. Gearoid is fine at mf, he does his best work breaking forward like Cavanagh for Tyrone....Corr and Clarke are unable to perform that role IMO. As long as he has a covering player there like Corr it works

As for Argue, hes not a FF....Id rather him in the hf line.....Since Keating got the hump, we dont have a ff option.....there are enough rumours and stories going round for me to believe that Keating is harder managed. As for Seanie, instead of knuckling down back in the day, he decided to flip off to Kildare, so I have no problem with him not being called back in....although if Terry leaves a new manager may give him a chance

Jampip

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

Terry like all managers has his flaws. He steadied the ship and has us competitive again. Gearoid is fine at mf, he does his best work breaking forward like Cavanagh for Tyrone....Corr and Clarke are unable to perform that role IMO. As long as he has a covering player there like Corr it works

As for Argue, hes not a FF....Id rather him in the hf line.....Since Keating got the hump, we dont have a ff option.....there are enough rumours and stories going round for me to believe that Keating is harder managed. As for Seanie, instead of knuckling down back in the day, he decided to flip off to Kildare, so I have no problem with him not being called back in....although if Terry leaves a new manager may give him a chance

I fully agree that Terry has steadied the ship and 2013 was easily the best year I had seen from Cavan in my lifetime bar 1997. That said, there are still problems to be addressed and Terry is now there since 2011 and hasn't addressed those. Therefore I do feel he has taken the team as far as he can and it's time to give someone else a crack. When I saw Kildare come down to Breffni in the League and bully us on our own patch, it reminded me of the Fermanagh league game two years ago. In fact, it was almost a carbon copy of it. The same player sent off for a piece of stupidity and us getting beaten by a team we are better than because we allowed them to push us around. If the team haven't even evolved to be able to handle that, not enough work is being done.

Tyrone are now operating with Cavanagh away from midfield though unless needed. What do you do about McKiernan's fitness levels? He clearly isn't fit for 50 minutes even at midfield. Clarke was more than capable of driving forward in 2013 as a corner back. I'd like to see him given the opportunity at midfield. As I also said, his only problem for me in fulfilling that role is his wayward shooting. I agree that Argue should be on the 40 and I have always said that. He looked far more comfortable on the 40 against Meath than he did at full forward.

Re Johnston, I assure you, its not just Terry in at county training that has the problem with Seanie. He won't be back while this group of players remain in situ which is going to be for the foreseeable future. I also agree that I have no problem with that given the way he acted and the disrespect he showed to the county.

Crash Bang Wall

Re McKiernan, if fitness levels are an issue then why not give him a 10 or 15 min spell in at FF for a breather.....he will cause problems, and wont be as nice to the likes of Wylie at FB as Argue was

Slobberdawn

Lads, is the A side draw on this Sunday or are we going to be left with only a week knowing who we're playing?

Jampip

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

Re McKiernan, if fitness levels are an issue then why not give him a 10 or 15 min spell in at FF for a breather.....he will cause problems, and wont be as nice to the likes of Wylie at FB as Argue was

That's my point exactly. Preserve his fitness so that when we need him to drive the team on, he's fit to.

Clarke, as I've said, also has a real arrogance to him at times and I think he'd have more than enough of an edge to cope with the likes of Cavanagh and Clerkin.

Slobberdawn wrote: »

Lads, is the A side draw on this Sunday or are we going to be left with only a week knowing who we're playing?

I think its this Sunday. I was also told that we are guaranteed a home draw because we are going to be the higher ranked league team. I'm dubious about this though. Is it correct?

celt262

I was also told that we are guaranteed a home draw because we are going to be the higher ranked league team. I'm dubious about this though. Is it correct?

Team that had an away draw in the first round qualifier last year will have home advantage this year unless drawn against team who also had away draw last year. In that case it's first out of the hat.

I think there are also some other rules I looked them up but couldn't find them.

Tom Joad

Jampip wrote: »

Interesting how you lads were falling over yourselves to reply to me last Friday but now you've all gone quiet.

I've gone quiet as you put it because there is no point going around and around in circles with some of the gibberish in your posts. I stopped even attempting to engage as it's clear that you will interpret what anyone says to suit your own agenda and nothing anyone here says is going to change your mind. That doesn't make you right or mean that you have out debated the rest of us here.

What points do you want to debate? Here's a few gems from your last few posts.

I'd also suggest you look at Hogan Stand forum. It may be full of crap but there's plenty of anti Hyland posts there.

Surely the fact that it's full of crap renders anything on it irrelevant

You can also believe what you want about players. Two posters have agreed above that they have heard otherwise about Keating and Givney for example. As one poster said, there's no smoke without fire.

Really don't think that's what they were saying but other posters can speak for themselves!

How many current managers are six years with their teams? Not many.

That said, Terry is now into his fifth year of being involved (2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015) and discipline is still poor, we can be hugely naïve and we lack a scoring threat of any significance.

So which is it

And if Joe Kiernan could say at half time that Cavan needed to move Argue out or out in a small forward to play off him, why couldn't Terry?

It's obvious to me that Wayne Rooney should be played in his best position - does that make me a better manager than Louis Van Gaal to follow through the logic of your argument.

Jampip wrote: »

McStay I would have rated even before Brigids won the club All-Ireland. He's been on The Sunday Game for a long time now and I rate his opinions. McEntee I rate because of a lot of the articles I read on Gaelic Life about him. I also think a manager from Ulster is the way we need to go. If you want me to throw out the name of a less fancied manager, I think we should have looked at Justin McNulty a few years back.

McStay is not from Ulster. So we just use their columns/ opinions from a position of knowing very little about the team/camp/ set-up as a basis for appointing managers. Sure feck it you seem to have it all figured out, why don't you put your name forward!

I'll presume you agree with my other points from post 3698 as you are incapable of debating them.

Ahh the irony. :pac:

So hopefully this might explain why I'm not falling over myself to respond to you.

Jampip

Tom Joad wrote: »

I've gone quiet as you put it because there is no point going around and around in circles with some of the gibberish in your posts. I stopped even attempting to engage as it's clear that you will interpret what anyone says to suit your own agenda and nothing anyone here says is going to change your mind. That doesn't make you right or mean that you have out debated the rest of us here.

You previously attempted to criticise me for failing to answer your questions. I then went through each individual question and gave an answer. I've asked you one question numberous times (have even numbered it below for you) across various posts and you won't respond. If you don't have examples, just say so. Another poster even tried to answer for you but they could only find an example of a player who had yet to even join the senior panel and was explaining why he didn't.

Tom Joad wrote: »

What points do you want to debate? Here's a few gems from your last few posts.

I've listed them below for you to make it easy.

Tom Joad wrote: »

Surely the fact that it's full of crap renders anything on it irrelevant

You refuted there was any "anti-Hyland camp" in the county. There may be a lot of crap on Hogan Stand but it clearly disproves your point. There are a vast number of supporters who criticise Terry on it. I've also pointed out the Celt article above. Paul Fitzpatrick felt the need to write a colum titled ""Lay off this senior team setup" this week in the Celt. So, as I asked above and you conveniently ignored again, who is he addressing if there's no anti Hyland camp? I've put this question for you again below so you don't conveniently miss it.

Tom Joad wrote: »

Really don't think that's what they were saying but other posters can speak for themselves!

Celt262 commented back in January "What I heard at end of last year was that they were fed up with the style of football and they thought that the management would step down. Keating and Givney are both "injured" at the moment and based in Dublin and in Keating case the story is that with work he hasn't time to commit" and Crash Bang Wall said "I have heard enough rumours re Keating with regard to club and county football.....while all have been rumours, for me there is no smoke without fire". What were they saying then? That to me is saying they heard other than what was stated to the media about "work commitments".

Tom Joad wrote: »

So which is it

Well, if you want to be pedantic, Terry was appointed joint manager on 26th August 2010 as per the article I posted so you could say he is there 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015. I was obviously giving him the benefit of the doubt in one post and saying 5 years because the season was effectively over for Cavan in 2010. If you want we can go back to six. It's up to you.

Tom Joad wrote: »

It's obvious to me that Wayne Rooney should be played in his best position - does that make me a better manager than Louis Van Gaal to follow through the logic of your argument.

I don't know where you're going with this point. You've moved to a different sport! The fact is that others could see that Argue at full forward was not working at half time and stated Cavan needed to either 1) move him out or 2) move a player in to play off him. Hyland did nothing though. If Joe Brolly, Joe Kiernan and Tomas O'Se could see this, why couldn't Terry? I think its an apt question and it has nothing to do with playing a player in his proper position to be honest. It's about making a strategic change when its needed which Terry failed to do.

Tom Joad wrote: »

McStay is not from Ulster. So we just use their columns/ opinions from a position of knowing very little about the team/camp/ set-up as a basis for appointing managers. Sure feck it you seem to have it all figured out, why don't you put your name forward!

No, I'd still prefer McNulty or McEntee over him but I do think McStay would be an improvement on the current setup.

Tom Joad wrote: »

Ahh the irony.
So hopefully this might explain why I'm not falling over myself to respond to you.

[/QUOTE]

In my opinion, you're not responding because you simply don't have the answers to what has been asked.

Now back to:

Tom Joad wrote: »

What points do you want to debate?

I've numbered them here so you can number your responses:

1. Well, there's one question I have asked repeatedly after you said you had numberous examples, So, I'll ask the question again, have you any examples of players who spoke out about active managers after leaving a panel?
2. I also asked you about the media. Is it normal for a team to bring commentators and reporters to a "training camp" and immerse them with the team?
3. Why hasn't Terry done something about his assistant making an idiot out of himself on the sideline in every game? I don't know how his head coach, or selector or whatever he is can even be watching the game when he is busy throwing himself around the place. Any favour we could hope to have from the officials is also quick to disappear I would think.
4. Paul Fitzpatrick felt the need to write a colum titled ""Lay off this senior team setup" this week in the Celt. So, as I asked above and you conveniently ignored again, who is he addressing if there's no anti Hyland camp?
5. The fact is that others could see that Argue at full forward was not working at half time and stated Cavan needed to either 1) move him out or 2) move a player in to play off him. Hyland did nothing though. If Joe Brolly, Joe Kiernan and Tomas O'Se could see this, why couldn't Terry?
6. Celt262 commented back in January "What I heard at end of last year was that they were fed up with the style of football and they thought that the management would step down. Keating and Givney are both "injured" at the moment and based in Dublin and in Keating case the story is that with work he hasn't time to commit" and Crash Bang Wall said "I have heard enough rumours re Keating with regard to club and county football.....while all have been rumours, for me there is no smoke without fire". What were they saying then? That to me is saying they heard other than what was stated to the media about "work commitments".

celt262

2. I also asked you about the media. Is it normal for a team to bring commentators and reporters to a "training camp" and immerse them with the team?

I wouldn't think so and don't know how close other counties media are to the team but they are two close to be giving impartial views.

3. Why hasn't Terry done something about his assistant making an idiot out of himself on the sideline in every game? I don't know how his head coach, or selector or whatever he is can even be watching the game when he is busy throwing himself around the place. Any favour we could hope to have from the officials is also quick to disappear I would think.

Very good point he should not be acting way he is and no sign of improvement.

4. Paul Fitzpatrick felt the need to write a colum titled ""Lay off this senior team setup" this week in the Celt. So, as I asked above and you conveniently ignored again, who is he addressing if there's no anti Hyland camp?

It would be the lads on hoganstand and the likes of this board that he would be having a go at. It's well known that he reads these boards, sure didn't he even take a page out in the programme of a home game last year or year before to have a go at the faceless posters on the internet which is ironic because he used to be one himself.

Stoner

Jampip wrote:

I think we should have looked at Justin McNulty a few years back. He coached Mullahoran to a senior championship and did a good job with Laois and I think he could have done a job for Cavan. It's probably too late now though. He's entered politics.

I'm a bit of a lurker on this thread, but I thought this was an interesting point. When reading the posts I was reminded of how he deployed Clancy at full forward for Laois when he lost the legs for midfield . Your discussion reminded me of it. Clancy was effective at full forward, he was used sometimes as an impact player. It's a pity he suffered with injuries so much as he was generally underrated, I don't your cavan lads would be as good as him, that's more ignorance on my part than opinion.
But McNulty mixed things up and his teams were very fit. I think he is a top class manager with the right team I could see him do well, if he still wants to do it that is.
I think he'd be a good manager for most counties. He'd make the most of what he had and he'd add a bit of unpredictability to the mix.

irish_man

The opinion that McKiernan should be played at full forward is laughable. He is the focal point of our midfield and Monaghan tried to kick the ball away from him. Every game he hits one or two ridiculous points from a long way out. He hit a lovely point against Monaghan. I don't think Argue can provide this outlet. I actually saw Argue score two good goals for Bboro last night. Two great balls in. I think he gives Cavan another option in the full forward line. In the 2nd half he was brought out to midfield and wasn't effective at all. Shercock ran all over them, if Killian Clarke could hit scores they would have run away with it.

I see Declan McKiernan scored a ridiculous amount of points again for Killashandra from midfield. It seems that Terry just doesn't like him and I felt that he never got a proper chance in the team apart from a disastrous cameo a few years back in the championship. He is much more of a natural point taker than Clarke (who belongs in the back line, not FF where Shercock had him for a period last night). He would be a good option from the bench which is very uninspiring at present. He'd have better size than a lad like Tom Hayes.

I thought Terry was right to start Galligan in goals. I felt his kick outs were quick and precise. He regularly bangs over frees from the ground for his club. On another day the two he missed would have gone over and we would be looking forward to a semi final.

Looking at midfield we could look to improve on Mossy Corr (who has a great work rate) but is a limited fielder of the ball at county level and the majority of Monaghan kick outs went his way. David Brady was unreal for the minors so ability is there. Another who could have been great is Cillian Sheridan. He made the right decision to play soccer but he was an unbelievable midfielder with great point taking ability. A midfield of him and Gearoid would be the best in Ulster.

Slobberdawn

irish_man wrote: »

The opinion that McKiernan should be played at full forward is laughable. He is the focal point of our midfield and Monaghan tried to kick the ball away from him. Every game he hits one or two ridiculous points from a long way out. He hit a lovely point against Monaghan. I don't think Argue can provide this outlet. I actually saw Argue score two good goals for Bboro last night. Two great balls in. I think he gives Cavan another option in the full forward line. In the 2nd half he was brought out to midfield and wasn't effective at all. Shercock ran all over them, if Killian Clarke could hit scores they would have run away with it.

I see Declan McKiernan scored a ridiculous amount of points again for Killashandra from midfield. It seems that Terry just doesn't like him and I felt that he never got a proper chance in the team apart from a disastrous cameo a few years back in the championship. He is much more of a natural point taker than Clarke (who belongs in the back line, not FF where Shercock had him for a period last night). He would be a good option from the bench which is very uninspiring at present. He'd have better size than a lad like Tom Hayes.

I thought Terry was right to start Galligan in goals. I felt his kick outs were quick and precise. He regularly bangs over frees from the ground for his club. On another day the two he missed would have gone over and we would be looking forward to a semi final.

Looking at midfield we could look to improve on Mossy Corr (who has a great work rate) but is a limited fielder of the ball at county level and the majority of Monaghan kick outs went his way. David Brady was unreal for the minors so ability is there. Another who could have been great is Cillian Sheridan. He made the right decision to play soccer but he was an unbelievable midfielder with great point taking ability. A midfield of him and Gearoid would be the best in Ulster.

Declan opted out this year as far as I know. He wasn't dropped. It's debatable whether he'd make a difference. He had many more chances than just that game against Fermanagh with mixed results at best.

KeepTheFaith

I'd agree about Declan McKiernan, he was given chances but never really impressed. A very good club player but I don't think he has what it takes to cut it at intercounty level.
David Brady from the Minors looks like a serious prospect, minor again next year too but has serious problems with injuries already.

Listened to an interview with Danny Brady where they asked him about the next game. He says they'll go out and plan man to man with whoever they meet and try to outscore them and if they're good enough they'll win and if not they'll lose and that's football. Even if it is probably a bit naive it's fascinating in a way. Especially when you consider what happened in the Donegal v Tyrone Minor game which is a prime example of win at all costs.

KeepTheFaith

Minors get a home draw for the Semi Final as Monaghan v Fermanagh is in Breffni.

Jampip

Brolly is out firing again:

Aogán should watch the 1997 Ulster final. I remember his beloved Cavan beating us that day with a display of passion, joy and adventure. Even though we lost, it was a pulsating game that electrified the huge crowd. It was something great. Something memorable. Those days are gone. No one outside of the squad and families gives a toss about Cavan's recent run of four in a row Ulster under 21 titles or their defensive efficiency. It may be a non-losing formula, but it is a defeat for the human spirit.

Slobberdawn

Jampip wrote: »

Brolly is out firing again:

Great, an attention seeker, who frequently uses his position in the media to see attention, says something to seek attention again.

Our game in Celtic Park in 2013 restored his faith in football yet six months later we were the black death.

Best to ignore him.

N.B. I notice the hypocrisy of saying we should ignore him and then not ignoring him myself.

KeepTheFaith

Nobody outside the squad or the family care... And the 10,000 people that went to Croker in 2011.

Jampip

Slobberdawn wrote: »

Great, an attention seeker, who frequently uses his position in the media to see attention, says something to seek attention again.

Our game in Celtic Park in 2013 restored his faith in football yet six months later we were the black death.

Best to ignore him.

N.B. I notice the hypocrisy of saying we should ignore him and then not ignoring him myself.

I totally agree. Our new GAA President has played right into his hands by responding.