The Official Cavan GAA Discussion thread.

KeepTheFaith

Tom Joad wrote: »

I'd go with

Galligan
McLoughlin
Dunne
R. Flanagan
F. Flanagan
McEnroe
McVetty
Mossy Corr
Gearoid
Mackey
Michael Argue
Martin Reilly
Niall McDermott
Killian Clarke
Martin Dunne

I think Mackey needs game time to get his fitness levels up. Interesting one about trying Gearoid at 14 - not sure he is suited to it but could be worth a try against London. Think he needs game time too as does Killian Clarke. I would start Martin Dunne as a good game would boost his confidence and he needs that at the minute.

Even apart from what I consider the madness of putting Gearoid at Full Forward, I don't see why if we're going with a towering presence at FF that we would switch away from Argue. He played in the heat of Ulster Championship in his first game in that position and had a reasonable amount of success. I don't see why we'd switch that now, if we're to shoehorn someone in there they need to be given a bit of a run. We can't do what we used to do with our full back, stick your strongest man into the problem position and then remove him after one game when it's not a roaring success.

Jampip

KeepTheFaith wrote: »

Even apart from what I consider the madness of putting Gearoid at Full Forward, I don't see why if we're going with a towering presence at FF that we would switch away from Argue. He played in the heat of Ulster Championship in his first game in that position and had a reasonable amount of success. I don't see why we'd switch that now, if we're to shoehorn someone in there they need to be given a bit of a run. We can't do what we used to do with our full back, stick your strongest man into the problem position and then remove him after one game when it's not a roaring success.

Argue only featured there because Clarke wasn't available. It has to be imagined that Terry will now revert to what he had planned originally.

Argue did ok but he looks a fish out of water at FF. Against Meath he played his best football out the pitch. His height makes him a great support at kick outs.

Re your own selection. Do you still believe Clarke has fitness issues or why would you leave the player I see as potentially our best on the bench?

Mackey - you talk about having Mackey for 50 minutes. We have a weak bench and are going to play teams like Monaghan eventually that will have strong players in reserve. Do you not think its time we held someone back? I think 40 minutes from Mackey capturing the end of the game is more important than 50 and he then leaves the pitch exactly when he's needed most. He's been struggling with fitness issues for three consecutive seasons now (perhaps more because he wasn't there the year before) so why would that suddenly change this year?

McKiernan - Terry moved him from midfield in the last game. He lacks mobility and the fitness needed. You're of the opinion he'll just move him back now?

I actually had an interesting discussion with a former Redhills trainer the other day. He said Full Back is the perfect position for Rory Dunne. Due to his injury problems when he was younger, he wouldn't be fit for 70 minutes anywhere else. Full back allows him the odd breather. I thought it was an interesting point when you consider McKiernan has had two cruciate injuries and is expected to play midfield still.

He also stated that certain players hit a brick wall with training. You can work with them all you like but their fitness level in March/April has peaked and you have to realise it won't go any further.

celt262

Mackey - you talk about having Mackey for 50 minutes. We have a weak bench and are going to play teams like Monaghan eventually that will have strong players in reserve. Do you not think its time we held someone back? I think 40 minutes from Mackey capturing the end of the game is more important than 50 and he then leaves the pitch exactly when he's needed most. He's been struggling with fitness issues for three consecutive seasons now (perhaps more because he wasn't there the year before) so why would that suddenly change this year?

As I have seen posted here or elsewhere if we have to hold players back on the bench to beat London we are going to be in trouble. If Mackey is not match fit he should be on the field for as long as possible.

McKiernan - Terry moved him from midfield in the last game. He lacks mobility and the fitness needed. You're of the opinion he'll just move him back now?

I don't see why not he has played probably 90% or more of his time at midfield and if Terry has decided now that he is not mobile or fit enough for midfield why has it taken him so long.


Team probably wont be much different than what started against Monaghan I'm not sure if Niall Murray deserves to lose out.

Jampip

celt262 wrote: »

As I have seen posted here or elsewhere if we have to hold players back on the bench to beat London we are going to be in trouble. If Mackey is not match fit he should be on the field for as long as possible.

I don't see why not he has played probably 90% or more of his time at midfield and if Terry has decided now that he is not mobile or fit enough for midfield why has it taken him so long.

Team probably wont be much different than what started against Monaghan I'm not sure if Niall Murray deserves to lose out.

Have you read my initial post:

People may find Mackey on the bench strange but I think we need to hold at least one of our big guns in reserve for when we're struggling in the second half of a match. Mackey isn't fit for 70 minutes so I'd prefer to have him for 30 minutes when the game is in the melting pot (shouldn't be the case this weekend but for future fixtures).

Also, read my post above. Mackey hasn't been fully match fit since 2013. He's constantly had niggles etc. If he hasn't managed to get fit in all that time, I don't see how running him for 40 or 50 minutes against London is going to help. The games are going to be coming thick and fast now.

I'd prefer that Mackey plays 30-35 minutes against London and stays in good nick and is able to train this week rather than he plays 50-60 minutes and can't train for the week.

I'd also like to see him get used to coming into a game rather than starting.

As I've said, Terry isn't the quickest at making tatical decisions. Killian Clarke wasn't available for the bulk of last season but in the League final it appeared that there was a plan to try him at midfield. Argue and Mossy Corr weren't available also. Perhaps this has been the plan for a while but the necessary players weren't available.

Also, what would be your own team? You say it would be similar to the Monaghan game but what changes would you make?

Tom Joad

KeepTheFaith wrote: »

Even apart from what I consider the madness of putting Gearoid at Full Forward, I don't see why if we're going with a towering presence at FF that we would switch away from Argue. He played in the heat of Ulster Championship in his first game in that position and had a reasonable amount of success. I don't see why we'd switch that now, if we're to shoehorn someone in there they need to be given a bit of a run. We can't do what we used to do with our full back, stick your strongest man into the problem position and then remove him after one game when it's not a roaring success.

Don't disagree with you re Gearoid and to my mind he does his best work from midfield and hadn't considered playing him as a FF until someone mentioned it here. My immediate reaction was to dismiss it but I've thought about it and it may have some merit but not because I think he would be better than either Argue or Clarke.

The way I see it is that Gearoid missed a lot of ball after 2 serious injuries and we haven't seen the old him really since he came back which is worrying. Now I'm not sure if it's just him being rusty or subconsciously minding himself since the injury. But if he has lost that part of his game a FF move or probably more likely a half forward move might be the answer as we are doing ok with midfielders and Argue/Clarke are more than capable of playing that role.

I agree that Argue done well in the FF position against Monaghan.

willabur

I wouldn't put Gearoid in at the Full Forward line. You would just be taking one of your best players out of his best position. If he was to be put anywhere else it would be in the half forward line.

One thing people seem to be missing about argue is that he is not a good fielder of the ball. He has an issue in Judging the flight of the ball which leaves him over running the ball time and again. Its Frustrating to see it because for a lad of this mass he should be cleaning out midfield. He has alot of other qualities that merit inclusion, he can run, he can shoot but he doesn't dominate in the air the way he should.

It has been mentioned that Clarke was initially earmarked for the full forward spot, it would be interesting to see him in there but again he has not played alot of football in there and I think he would be better at no 8 beside Gearoid. I'd be inclined to give Argue another go in at Full Forward, the deficiency which I perceive is something that can be coached into him and I think McHale could be a good man to have in his ear

Jampip

We need to be realistic with players in Cavan. Take Mackey as an example. He's now 28. I remember him coming on for Cavan against Mayo in 2005 when he was only 18. He has a lot of mileage on the clock and has been struggling with his fitness for the last three years yet people expect him to be able to play an energetic role in the half forward line for 50 to 70 minutes. It hasn't been happening and it isn't going to happen. Player burnout is hitting our players at a younger age now because we expect so much of them from a young age. Another problem in Cavan is that our players, with the exception of a few like Ronan Flanagan, didn't exactly look after themselves when they were younger. It's when you're older that this catches up with you.

celt262

Jampip wrote: »

Have you read my initial post:



I'd prefer that Mackey plays 30-35 minutes against London and stays in good nick and is able to train this week rather than he plays 50-60 minutes and can't train for the week.

Michael Hannon said in the Celt this week that a game is better than 5 training sessions, I would be getting the game time into him.

Slobberdawn

I don't agree with Gearóid at full forward.

He lacks any sort of agility to get space over five yards. He has to have more to his game in there than being able to out-jump his man. Even if he wins it again, I'm not sure he's agile enough to get turned and kick a score never mind go past him for a goal.

I'm not denying he may have a fitness issue but I don't think full forward is a position for him unless we're chasing a goal near the end.

It's interesting that nobody mentioned him being put in there at the very end of the Galway game.

Jampip

celt262 wrote: »

Michael Hannon said in the Celt this week that a game is better than 5 training sessions, I would be getting the game time into him.

He's had 3 years worth of games and still isn't fit!

The games are going to come thick and fast now. Do you use Mackey against London for fifty minutes and have him wrecked for the week or keep him fit and ready for the tougher game we'll have in the next round in a fortnight?

Slobberdawn wrote: »

I don't agree with Gearóid at full forward.

He lacks any sort of agility to get space over five yards. He has to have more to his game in there than being able to out-jump his man. Even if he wins it again, I'm not sure he's agile enough to get turned and kick a score never mind go past him for a goal.

I'm not denying he may have a fitness issue but I don't think full forward is a position for him unless we're chasing a goal near the end.

It's interesting that nobody mentioned him being put in there at the very end of the Galway game.

I didn't travel to that game. How did he perform?

Re the agility point, if we expect him to be able to catch at midfield and turn or get the ball laid off I expect him to be able to perform at full forward. Alot of his game would be about taking the role Keating used to take for others - win the ball and get it to the scoring fowards.

Slobberdawn

Jampip wrote: »

He's had 3 years worth of games and still isn't fit!

The games are going to come thick and fast now. Do you use Mackey against London for fifty minutes and have him wrecked for the week or keep him fit and ready for the tougher game we'll have in the next round in a fortnight?



I didn't travel to that game. How did he perform?

Re the agility point, if we expect him to be able to catch at midfield and turn or get the ball laid off I expect him to be able to perform at full forward. Alot of his game would be about taking the role Keating used to take for others - win the ball and get it to the scoring fowards.

Apologies, it was actually the Roscommon game he went in full forward. It was very late and he had no effect.

Regarding the agility, I'm talking about his instinct to show for and win a low ball as well as being able to turn and take the man on. I'm sure he'd be able for some of what would be asked of him, but not these particular skills.

Crash Bang Wall

Mackey needs Championship football, he shouldnt have played any football last year as was injured even before the Rossie game in Croker (League Final). Hes fit now, just needs the match fitness. Hes our most natural attacking footballer and has workrate in his locker also, so he is vital.

He has played a few League matches and is training and playing pain free for first time in about 15 months, so he needs gametime in Championship football

Slobberdawn

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

Mackey needs Championship football, he shouldnt have played any football last year as was injured even before the Rossie game in Croker (League Final). Hes fit now, just needs the match fitness. Hes our most natural attacking footballer and has workrate in his locker also, so he is vital.

He has played a few League matches and is training and playing pain free for first time in about 15 months, so he needs gametime in Championship football

Has he? When?

Crash Bang Wall

2015 pal

He played NFL matches....definitely involved against Westmeath, where he was taken out off the ball

And in the ACFL he played at least 2 matches....v Ramor in Virginia, and a home game against Ballyhaise I think

There may have been more....definitely not enough to be match fit at Championship level

celt262

He's had 3 years worth of games and still isn't fit!

The games are going to come thick and fast now. Do you use Mackey against London for fifty minutes and have him wrecked for the week or keep him fit and ready for the tougher game we'll have in the next round in a fortnight?

Yes I would play him for 50 minutes or 40 or whatever to get game time into him. Players will not get match fit sitting on the bench or training. It's game time that he needs.


If he is not fit, the training required to get him fit will have him wrecked anyway , so it's better to play him now and see exactly how long he can play for.

Slobberdawn

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

2015 pal

He played NFL matches....definitely involved against Westmeath, where he was taken out off the ball

And in the ACFL he played at least 2 matches....v Ramor in Virginia, and a home game against Ballyhaise I think

There may have been more....definitely not enough to be match fit at Championship level

Pal?
Sorry, I thought you meant ACFL games or Breffni League games since the Monaghan game.

Jampip

celt262 wrote: »

Yes I would play him for 50 minutes or 40 or whatever to get game time into him. Players will not get match fit sitting on the bench or training. It's game time that he needs.

If he is not fit, the training required to get him fit will have him wrecked anyway , so it's better to play him now and see exactly how long he can play for.

The point is that Mackey is now at a stage where we are never going to see him fit enough for 70 minutes of intercounty football. You might get 50 minutes out of him and that's stretching it.

It's like the point I made above re Dunne. Injuries have taken their toll now. Mackey is the same and I also feel McKiernan is.

So, for Mackey, do you look at starting him and getting the 50 so he leaves the pitch when you need him most or take a more tactical approach and introduce him for the second half where he can lift the crowd and run at a tired opposition defence?

You still haven't said what changes you would like to see Celt.

celt262

Jampip wrote: »

The point is that Mackey is now at a stage where we are never going to see him fit enough for 70 minutes of intercounty football. You might get 50 minutes out of him and that's stretching it.

It's like the point I made above re Dunne. Injuries have taken their toll now. Mackey is the same and I also feel McKiernan is.

So, for Mackey, do you look at starting him and getting the 50 so he leaves the pitch when you need him most or take a more tactical approach and introduce him for the second half where he can lift the crowd and run at a tired opposition defence?

You still haven't said what changes you would like to see Celt.

What I am saying is he needs to start next Saturday to get game time into the legs and see where he is fitness wise. If that is 50 minutes or less so be it. After that a decision should be made on how to use him. I'm not against the idea of bringing him on later on in games but for this weekend I think it is important to see where he is fitness wise.


I said I didn't think there would be much changes and I think he might even start the same team.

KeepTheFaith

Tom Joad wrote: »

Don't disagree with you re Gearoid and to my mind he does his best work from midfield and hadn't considered playing him as a FF until someone mentioned it here. My immediate reaction was to dismiss it but I've thought about it and it may have some merit but not because I think he would be better than either Argue or Clarke.

The way I see it is that Gearoid missed a lot of ball after 2 serious injuries and we haven't seen the old him really since he came back which is worrying. Now I'm not sure if it's just him being rusty or subconsciously minding himself since the injury. But if he has lost that part of his game a FF move or probably more likely a half forward move might be the answer as we are doing ok with midfielders and Argue/Clarke are more than capable of playing that role.

I agree that Argue done well in the FF position against Monaghan.

Has Gearoid really been worse since he returned from injury? What do you think he's lost? He was always a bit inconsistent, he only ever showed flashes, he's still showing those but his general game has improved and I thought that was very evident throughout the league this year. He had a very good championship game against Monaghan, probably his first good performance in the Ulster Championship.

I've discussed this at length with Jampip previously but I really don't see how Gearoid's strengths make people think he's a suitable Full Forward. Do you not think you're robbing our outfield play of his direct running from deep? He's not an amazing fielder of the ball, he doesn't have pace over the first 5 yards, he doesn't have the agility to turn and make room for himself... I just think it's madness. Put him at half forward sure, that still allows him to do his thing from there.

Some mad ideas been thrown out here, don't pick Mackey, put Gearoid somewhere he won't be able to play.. Maybe we should blindfold Rory Dunne and only give McDermott a right boot. :P

Tom Joad

KeepTheFaith wrote: »

Has Gearoid really been worse since he returned from injury? What do you think he's lost? He was always a bit inconsistent, he only ever showed flashes, he's still showing those but his general game has improved and I thought that was very evident throughout the league this year. He had a very good championship game against Monaghan, probably his first good performance in the Ulster Championship.

I've discussed this at length with Jampip previously but I really don't see how Gearoid's strengths make people think he's a suitable Full Forward. Do you not think you're robbing our outfield play of his direct running from deep? He's not an amazing fielder of the ball, he doesn't have pace over the first 5 yards, he doesn't have the agility to turn and make room for himself... I just think it's madness. Put him at half forward sure, that still allows him to do his thing from there.

Some mad ideas been thrown out here, don't pick Mackey, put Gearoid somewhere he won't be able to play.. Maybe we should blindfold Rory Dunne and only give McDermott a right boot. :P

I just don't think he is as influential as he used to be but maybe I'm overly harsh on him. I watched him this year in a few different games and I've been waiting for him to power forward when the opportunity arose as he would have done before and kicked a big influential score but he doesn't seem to have it in him to do it as often as he did before. It is only in that context that I wasn't completing dismissing the idea of playing him full forward. But you're right Gearoid back on form - it's a no brainer that he stays at midfield where he does his best work.

Mackey has to start for me - he needs match time -simple as. As does Martin Dunne - the world and its mother knows he is a confidence players and a bit of room against London and he racks up a good score and the confidence might come back.

Another way of looking at things is we had two of our most influential players (Mackey and Gearoid) not firing 100% and missing our first choice number 14 (Clarke) and had our main scorer from 2013 not starting and we still got to within a point of Monaghan (a top 5 team). We could have a good summer if we fixed even a few of those!

Jampip

KeepTheFaith wrote: »

Has Gearoid really been worse since he returned from injury? What do you think he's lost? He was always a bit inconsistent, he only ever showed flashes, he's still showing those but his general game has improved and I thought that was very evident throughout the league this year. He had a very good championship game against Monaghan, probably his first good performance in the Ulster Championship.

I've discussed this at length with Jampip previously but I really don't see how Gearoid's strengths make people think he's a suitable Full Forward. Do you not think you're robbing our outfield play of his direct running from deep? He's not an amazing fielder of the ball, he doesn't have pace over the first 5 yards, he doesn't have the agility to turn and make room for himself... I just think it's madness. Put him at half forward sure, that still allows him to do his thing from there.

Some mad ideas been thrown out here, don't pick Mackey, put Gearoid somewhere he won't be able to play.. Maybe we should blindfold Rory Dunne and only give McDermott a right boot. :P

I posted my response to you previously with some questions.

I didn't say not to pick Mackey. I said we need to manage his playing time given his fitness issues. There's a difference.

I wouldn't think any of my ideas are any madder than not picking Killian Clarke as you suggested. He has the potential to be our best player.

Tom Joad

Team named no starts for Mackey or Martin Dunne. Killian Clarke named in the backs Argue named at 14. On phone so can't do link.

Jampip

Team in Full:
Raymond Galligan (Lacken), Jason McLoughlin (Shannon Gaels), Rory Dunne (Redhills), Killian Clarke (Shercock), Ciaran Brady (Arva), Feargal Flanagan (Butlersbridge), Damien O’Reilly (Belturbet), Tomas Corr (Denn), Gearoid McKiernan (Swanlinbar), Dara McVeety (Crosserlough), Niall Murray (Cavan Gaels), Martin Reilly (Killygarry), Ronan Flanagan (Castlerahan), Michael Argue (Bailieboro), Niall McDermott (Ballinagh).

No McEnroe or Mackey. Brady and Clarke in.

The supposed madman of the Cavan thread will be hard lived with for the next week. Looks like Terry has been reading my theory re Mackey and agrees!

McEnroe has to be a fitness issue I'd imagine.

Tom Joad

As a wise man once said even a stopped clock is right twice a day

Thanks for posting the team.

Jampip

Looks like Feargal Flanagan will continue at corner back, although we do need to wait on the actual team that starts tomorrow.

There could still be changes.

KeepTheFaith

Glad to see that they're sticking with Argue at Full Forward. McEnroe is a loss. I expect London to make it difficult for us for long periods but we should still come out with the win. Anything else and these boards will explode...

baconsarnie

Is Northern Sound our only option (for those not heading to London)

tanko

KeepTheFaith wrote: »

Glad to see that they're sticking with Argue at Full Forward. McEnroe is a loss. I expect London to make it difficult for us for long periods but we should still come out with the win. Anything else and these boards will explode...

If we lose this we may give up the football and start hurling instead. I thought McEnroe looked injured against Monaghan. Has he played since?

Jampip

KeepTheFaith wrote: »

Glad to see that they're sticking with Argue at Full Forward. McEnroe is a loss. I expect London to make it difficult for us for long periods but we should still come out with the win. Anything else and these boards will explode...

I wouldn't count on any positions being nailed on until the match throwns in tbh. Niall Murray is named at centre half forward for example. Not a position I see him filling.

We've nothing to gain today other than a bit of fitness/confidence. The next round will be against Sligo, Fermanagh, Kildare or Clare so I'd also be very shocked if we lost it. Kildare are the only team of that quartet that I'd fear. That said, we owe them a beating at this stage.

KeepTheFaith

Cavan winning by 7 after 25 minutes hopefully we can drive on from here. From the sounds of things Argue is doing very well in full forward breaking ball for McDermott who has racked up 5 points or so. We've fluffed a good few goal chances.