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The Official Cavan GAA Discussion thread.
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KeepTheFaith wrote: »The Cork and Dublin games were gallant battles. We faced two very very good sides. Why don't you think Dublin were fantastic? They won the All Ireland by a cricket score against a very talented Roscommon side. Costello McCaffery O'Conghaile Mannion Lowndes McHugh have all went all to play Senior for Dublin who are widely considered the best side in the country. I don't see how it can be doubted that they were an outstanding side? How can you make a case that we underperformed by losing to them?
Because I don't think they were "fantastic". 8 of that team that played Cavan in the 2014 semi final had played the year before for the Dublin U21s against Longford in the first round when they lost. Ciaran Kilkenny, their best player who actually missed the Cavan game, also played when they lost to Longford. The funny thing is that of the six players you hold out as the best above, five of them, Costelloe being the exception, also played against Longford. It could be argued that the side that lost to Longford in the 2013 first round was actually better than the one which beat Cavan in 2014. In 2015, seven of them, along with Kilkenny again, played against Tipperary when they lost again. That side were by no means unbeatable. Yes, they beat Roscommon well in the final but Roscommon were very naïve and tried to play man to man with a good attacking side.
Here's a review of the game which mentions Dublin should have been further ahead at half time. I know they had at least eight wides in the first half.
https://www.gaa.ie/gaa-news-and-videos/daily-news/2/1904141412-cavan-v-dublin/
Re the six you say went on to play for Dublin. McCaffrey is the only one featuring prominently. Dublin use a vast array of players through the O'Byrne cup and League. You also mentioned that side having "experience far superior to Cavan's" - how exactly? Our own team had lads like Farrelly, Killian Clarke, Gerard Smith, Conor Moynagh, Ciaran Brady, Michael Argue, Dara Mc and Joe Dillon - lads who were playing in their second or third All Ireland semi final and some of whom had featured at senior or for the juniors.
I still don't see how it can be argued that Peter Reilly is the man for the job given his performance with the U21s. He inherited a good batch of players who had a wealth of experience. The side he had last year had won Ulster at minor so already had been successful without his input.
I sincerely hope a selection committe doesn't use a supposedly "gallant battle" against Dublin in the All Ireland semi final as a barometer of success. You previously questioned my suggestion of McNulty but at least he has managed a senior team to promotion to Division 1 in the League and has won a club championship in Cavan. It's more than Peter Reilly has managed.0 -
Because I don't think they were "fantastic". 8 of that team that played Cavan in the 2014 semi final had played the year before for the Dublin U21s against Longford in the first round when they lost. Ciaran Kilkenny, their best player who actually missed the Cavan game, also played when they lost to Longford. The funny thing is that of the six players you hold out as the best above, five of them, Costelloe being the exception, also played against Longford. It could be argued that the side that lost to Longford in the 2013 first round was actually better than the one which beat Cavan in 2014. In 2015, seven of them, along with Kilkenny again, played against Tipperary when they lost again. That side were by no means unbeatable. Yes, they beat Roscommon well in the final but Roscommon were very naïve and tried to play man to man with a good attacking side.
Here's a review of the game which mentions Dublin should have been further ahead at half time. I know they had at least eight wides in the first half.
https://www.gaa.ie/gaa-news-and-videos/daily-news/2/1904141412-cavan-v-dublin/
Re the six you say went on to play for Dublin. McCaffrey is the only one featuring prominently. Dublin use a vast array of players through the O'Byrne cup and League. You also mentioned that side having "experience far superior to Cavan's" - how exactly? Our own team had lads like Farrelly, Killian Clarke, Gerard Smith, Conor Moynagh, Ciaran Brady, Michael Argue, Dara Mc and Joe Dillon - lads who were playing in their second or third All Ireland semi final and some of whom had featured at senior or for the juniors.
I still don't see how it can be argued that Peter Reilly is the man for the job given his performance with the U21s. He inherited a good batch of players who had a wealth of experience. The side he had last year had won Ulster at minor so already had been successful without his input.
I sincerely hope a selection committe doesn't use a supposedly "gallant battle" against Dublin in the All Ireland semi final as a barometer of success. You previously questioned my suggestion of McNulty but at least he has managed a senior team to promotion to Division 1 in the League and has won a club championship in Cavan. It's more than Peter Reilly has managed.
Mannion didn't feature prominently for Dubin? Costello didn't features prominently for Dublin? I'd go check that one out if I was you.
As for experience.. Mannion McCaffery O Conghaile All had U21 All Ireland Medals. Many of them had Leinster and All Ireland Minor Medals. Jack McCaffery had a Senior All Ireland so did Mannion.
Some of our lads had Ulster Minor and most had U21 medals. None had played in an All Ireland Final. None had won an underage game outside of Ulster.
How in any way were we more experienced??0 -
Ended up buying the Celt this morning and the direct quote is....
"He [Cahill] confirmed that the county senior team management and coaching expenses, including those of the strength and condition coach, are expected to come in at around €85,000. This figure is regarded as low in comparison to other counties".
I rest my case
I am sorry but I said senior team management expenses -trainers S&C coaches goalkeeping back fowards coaches are all part of senior team management. To say figure is low in comparison to other counties is subjective, Low against Dublin definitely. Other counties are employing their management from other counties -Roscommon,Fermanagh,Longford ,Sligo Westmeath counties similar in size and in revenue turnover to us.How do we compare to these? We should be a lot lower than Roscommon whose manger travels from Killorglin to Roscommon a few times a week. Lacken to Breffni is a little bit nearer!0 -
Blue in hope wrote: »I am sorry but I said senior team management expenses -trainers S&C coaches goalkeeping back fowards coaches are all part of senior team management. To say figure is low in comparison to other counties is subjective, Low against Dublin definitely. Other counties are employing their management from other counties -Roscommon,Fermanagh,Longford ,Sligo Westmeath counties similar in size and in revenue turnover to us.How do we compare to these? We should be a lot lower than Roscommon whose manger travels from Killorglin to Roscommon a few times a week. Lacken to Breffni is a little bit nearer!
Jaysus I knew Lacken produced some talent in it's time but to produce all the trainers, strength and conditioning coach, goalkeeping coach, backs and forwards coaches or do they all live in the same house in Lacken?
I think your last line shows up what you are at here and it is absolutely reprehensible what you are trying to suggest.
Criticise Terry Hyland for his management or decisions all you like but you have really crossed a line with what you are trying to suggest.0 -
I follow this thread and while I think that its time for a change of management at senior level, to suggest that there is something underhand going on with the finances in respect to the management and coaching is just wrong.
On another note the leagues are nicely set up. Division 1B will likely see 2 from Arva, Gowna and Drumlane go up, In division 1A with only three points separating Kingscourt in third place with Lavey in last any two of 8 teams could still be relegated. Personally I think it will be Lavey and Ballyhaise that go down but Ballyhaise will have the consolation of an intermediate championship to soften the blow.
As for the senior championship it's really open. I'd still have Cavan Gaels as the favourites but Castlerahan, Kingscourt, Ramor, Mullahoran and Ballinagh are all capable of beating them.0 -
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Jampip. I really struggle to understand your mindset and I wonder about your agenda to be honest. You will give little credit to Peter Reilly while McNulty gets huge credit. You belittle Peter Reillys ability by playing down the quality of Dublin, which simply stands up to no scrutiny at all. You then imply that Hyland was milking expenses as much as an outside man, a false and scurrilous accusation. Difficult to take these argument seriously.0
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mylestheslasher wrote: »Jampip. I really struggle to understand your mindset and I wonder about your agenda to be honest. You will give little credit to Peter Reilly while McNulty gets huge credit. You belittle Peter Reillys ability by playing down the quality of Dublin, which simply stands up to no scrutiny at all. You then imply that Hyland was milking expenses as much as an outside man, a false and scurrilous accusation. Difficult to take these argument seriously.
To be fair to Jampip, I don't think he has made any allegations about expenses - that was a different poster.0 -
Jaysus I knew Lacken produced some talent in it's time but to produce all the trainers, strength and conditioning coach, goalkeeping coach, backs and forwards coaches or do they all live in the same house in Lacken?
I think your last line shows up what you are at here and it is absolutely reprehensible what you are trying to suggest.
Criticise Terry Hyland for his management or decisions all you like but you have really crossed a line with what you are trying to suggest.
I have never spoken or written anything critical of Terry Hyland in my life. I have no agenda against him or any of his management team who have taken Cavan to a better place than where they were when they took over. I would however refer you back to my post when I saidBlue in hope wrote: »People seem to think that only outside managers cost big bucks. From I have been told the current management teams "expenses" were huge. No less than what an outsider manager would cost.
You said " Absolute total horse manure of the very highest order that the expenses of the current management are huge. Whoever told you that is talking through their hoop."
Your comment that you know where I am up to is rubbish as I will say again I have not and never had an agenda against any of the management team. My simple statement was that the expenses spent on the current management team would not be far of from an outsider.0 -
Jampip, apologies wrong man on my expenses point.0
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KeepTheFaith wrote: »Mannion didn't feature prominently for Dubin? Costello didn't features prominently for Dublin? I'd go check that one out if I was you.
As for experience.. Mannion McCaffery O Conghaile All had U21 All Ireland Medals. Many of them had Leinster and All Ireland Minor Medals. Jack McCaffery had a Senior All Ireland so did Mannion.
Some of our lads had Ulster Minor and most had U21 medals. None had played in an All Ireland Final. None had won an underage game outside of Ulster.
How in any way were we more experienced??
I used the word "featuring" as in present tense. You use the word "featured" as in past tense. McCaffrey is the only player that has featured prominently for Dublin from that list in the championship this year.
Did I say we were more experienced? No, I said Dublin did not have experience far superior to Cavan's. As I've already stated, we had lads playing in their third All Ireland semi final and who had played an All Ireland quarter final in 2013.
The majority if the team had an Ulster minor medal and two Ulster U21 medals at that stage.
As I've also said, an arguably superior side to that Dublin one were beaten by Longford in 2013. They were by no means unbeatable.
Do you deny that Peter Reilly inherited a very talented team of players who had already been successful and progressed them no further than the level they were already at?mylestheslasher wrote: »Jampip. I really struggle to understand your mindset and I wonder about your agenda to be honest. You will give little credit to Peter Reilly while McNulty gets huge credit. You belittle Peter Reillys ability by playing down the quality of Dublin, which simply stands up to no scrutiny at all.
Why have I an "agenda"? Because I don't want our best group of players in a long time to be shackled with an inexperienced manager who plays to the same sort of system that clearly isn't working for us at present? That wanting the best for my county. Not an "agenda".
I've given a fairly apt scrutiny of the Dublin panel from 2014 above tbh. I wouldn't say I have given NcNulty huge credit but I feel he'd have more to offer than Peter Reilly.
I also think he's s realistic option in terms if the managers we can afford.
Maybe Reilly would be the man in a few years but we've a fairly inexperienced panel at senior level so we need an experienced manager now.0 -
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I used the word "featuring" as in present tense. You use the word "featured" as in past tense. McCaffrey is the only player that has featured prominently for Dublin from that list in the championship this year.
Did I say we were more experienced? No, I said Dublin did not have experience far superior to Cavan's. As I've already stated, we had lads playing in their third All Ireland semi final and who had played an All Ireland quarter final in 2013.
The majority if the team had an Ulster minor medal and two Ulster U21 medals at that stage.
As I've also said, an arguably superior side to that Dublin one were beaten by Longford in 2012. They were by no means unbeatable.
Do you deny that Peter Reilly inherited a very talented team of players who had already been successful and progressed them no further than the level they were already at?
We had 3 players playing in their third U21 Semi Final. Killian Clarke, Michael Aruge and Conor Moynagh and even at that Conor only played a few minutes of the 2013 Semi Final. But a few would have been playing in their second.
Dublin had 3 players who had won an All Ireland U21 Medal.
Dublin had 2 players with All Ireland Senior Football Medals.
Cavan had 3 plays who played and lost in an All Ireland Senior Quarter Final.
Cavan had players with an Ulster Minor medal (and they had lost the Quarter Final to Galway who were no world beaters).
Dublin had players with Leinster Minor Medals and All Ireland Minor Medals.
Now honestly Jampip forget the tit for tat for a minute, how by any standards is Dublin's experience not much greater than Cavan's given that above?
I never suggested they were unbeatable, no team is unbeatable. I said they were an excellent team, a better team than Cavan. And so Peter in no way underachieved by losing to them. We could have turned them over on the day because we got our tactics spot on and Dublin kicked a lot of wides, unfortunately our lack of class up front and some dubious refereeing stopped us. Do you think Cavan were a better team than Dublin? Why or how do you think that? Is the loss to Longford the crux of your entire argument here?
Peter certainly inherited a very talented Cavan side. No disagreement there. And he won 2 Ulster Medals with them. He was beaten by 2 better sides in 2 All Ireland Semi Finals. I don't see where the stick lies there to beat him with? Where did he underachieve?0 -
Jampip, keepthefaith put it very well. You are hugely understating peters achievements by belittling a top top class Dublin team. This belittling flies in the face of all data available. That is why I wonder IF you have an agenda. I see no attempt by you to measure mcnultys success as a manager by examining the teams his Laois team defeated. For example I recall them quite lucky to beat a poor Fermanagh team in portlaois a few years ago.0
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KeepTheFaith wrote: »We had 3 players playing in their third U21 Semi Final. Killian Clarke, Michael Aruge and Conor Moynagh and even at that Conor only played a few minutes of the 2013 Semi Final. But a few would have been playing in their second.
Dublin had 3 players who had won an All Ireland U21 Medal.
Dublin had 2 players with All Ireland Senior Football Medals.
Cavan had 3 plays who played and lost in an All Ireland Senior Quarter Final.
Cavan had players with an Ulster Minor medal (and they had lost the Quarter Final to Galway who were no world beaters).
Dublin had players with Leinster Minor Medals and All Ireland Minor Medals.
Now honestly Jampip forget the tit for tat for a minute, how by any standards is Dublin's experience not much greater than Cavan's given that above?
I never suggested they were unbeatable, no team is unbeatable. I said they were an excellent team, a better team than Cavan. And so Peter in no way underachieved by losing to them. We could have turned them over on the day because we got our tactics spot on and Dublin kicked a lot of wides, unfortunately our lack of class up front and some dubious refereeing stopped us. Do you think Cavan were a better team than Dublin? Why or how do you think that? Is the loss to Longford the crux of your entire argument here?
Peter certainly inherited a very talented Cavan side. No disagreement there. And he won 2 Ulster Medals with them. He was beaten by 2 better sides in 2 All Ireland Semi Finals. I don't see where the stick lies there to beat him with? Where did he underachieve?
What two Dublin players had senior All Ireland medals? I am not engaged in any tit-for-tat, I am expressing my opinion. That Cavan team were vastly experienced. Many of them had probably played more games at U21 than their Dublin counterparts given Dublin had exited to Longford in the first round the year before.
I think it's debatable that they were a better team than Cavan. They had better individual stars but then so did the likes of Donegal and we managed to beat them iirc.
It's not just the loss to Longford. This year Tipp knocked them out. I would have seen the Galway side of 2011 that blew us apart in the final as better team than that Dublin side of 2014.
Who is beating him with a stick? I am saying I don't see how he overachieved replicating the performance of one of the season's before. He didn't even make a final like Terry did in 2011. He also had the only team who had actually won Ulster at minor so arguably the best of the four.
I am saying he is inexperienced and I don't see why he would be appointed manager.
As I said, he plays the same brand of football tactically that isn't working for us at senior level. You seem to be ignoring that part. Terry's system isn't working so why appoint another man who will follow it? A fresh approach is needed.0 -
mylestheslasher wrote: »Jampip, keepthefaith put it very well. You are hugely understating peters achievements by belittling a top top class Dublin team. This belittling flies in the face of all data available. That is why I wonder IF you have an agenda. I see no attempt by you to measure mcnultys success as a manager by examining the teams his Laois team defeated. For example I recall them quite lucky to beat a poor Fermanagh team in portlaois a few years ago.
It's the mark of a good team that can play badly and win!
Joking aside, I don't know all that much about McNulty's time in Laois but it seems to have been successful enough from my reading of articles on it. An All Ireland quarter final, making the last 12 and promotion to Division 1 isn't bad for Laois. They also put in some decent performances in Division 1 despite being relegated.
People may argue they had good underage teams years back but they were the weakest team I saw Cavan play in the League this year and McNulty isn't long gone.
I know more about his time in Mullahoran and St Brigids where he was highly rated. As I said, he broke the Gaels dominance in Cavan which was no easy feat.
Even taking McNulty out of it, Reilly is not the man for the job IMO. We have a good set of players. Why land them with an inexperienced manager who also adopts a system similar to the present management? A new approach is needed IMO.0 -
It's the mark of a good team that can play badly and win!
Joking aside, I don't know all that much about McNulty's time in Laois but it seems to have been successful enough from my reading of articles on it. An All Ireland quarter final, making the last 12 and promotion to Division 1 isn't bad for Laois. They also put in some decent performances in Division 1 despite being relegated.
People may argue they had good underage teams years back but they were the weakest team I saw Cavan play in the League this year and McNulty isn't long gone.
I know more about his time in Mullahoran and St Brigids where he was highly rated. As I said, he broke the Gaels dominance in Cavan which was no easy feat.
Even taking McNulty out of it, Reilly is not the man for the job IMO. We have a good set of players. Why land them with an inexperienced manager who also adopts a system similar to the present management? A new approach is needed IMO.
Fair enough if you want an experienced senior manager. It's my opinion that these don't work very often and id rather see the best of our own coaches get the job and for me Peter Reilly is the best of what we have. I believe outside managers don't work because they get paid and the lads they want to push to the limit don't, how can you ask for the sacrifice when your not making it yourself - that's my opinion on it anyway0 -
What two Dublin players had senior All Ireland medals? I am not engaged in any tit-for-tat, I am expressing my opinion. That Cavan team were vastly experienced. Many of them had probably played more games at U21 than their Dublin counterparts given Dublin had exited to Longford in the first round the year before.
I think it's debatable that they were a better team than Cavan. They had better individual stars but then so did the likes of Donegal and we managed to beat them iirc.
It's not just the loss to Longford. This year Tipp knocked them out. I would have seen the Galway side of 2011 that blew us apart in the final as better team than that Dublin side of 2014.
Who is beating him with a stick? I am saying I don't see how he overachieved replicating the performance of one of the season's before. He didn't even make a final like Terry did in 2011. He also had the only team who had actually won Ulster at minor so arguably the best of the four.
I am saying he is inexperienced and I don't see why he would be appointed manager.
As I said, he plays the same brand of football tactically that isn't working for us at senior level. You seem to be ignoring that part. Terry's system isn't working so why appoint another man who will follow it? A fresh approach is needed.
Mannion and McCaffery both won Senior All Ireland medals in 2013. Cavan were experienced at winning games in Ulster. As I said previously not one Cavan player had won a game outside of Ulster.
Dublin had three players with All Ireland U21 Medals, many more had Leinster Minor and All Ireland Medals. Suggesting that Cavan were anywhere near as experienced as Dublin is completely ludicrous.
You also criticise Peter for playing negative football but then call Roscommon "naive" for going man to man with them?
With the players we have at our disposal at the moment, our only chance of winning an Ulster title is playing a game with defence being the main focus. We simply don't have the forwards capable of outscoring Donegal, Monaghan, Tyrone.
I also think tying one manager to a style of football is very close minded. Managers change and evolve. Look at Terry, U21 in 2010 built on high catching, long kicking and lightning fast forwards, moved to a more defensive gameplan in 2011 after meeting the Donegal brick wall the previous year, brought the same plan to the Seniors and moved again to a faster breaking game this year mixed with the high ball into the target man. Look at how McGuiness evolved and Mickey Harte.
Leaving aside Peter (who is surely the best Cavan man that could be appointed) and the (extremely average) former Laois Manager, who else is out there? What's Tony McEntee at these days?0 -
KeepTheFaith wrote: »Mannion and McCaffery both won Senior All Ireland medals in 2013. Cavan were experienced at winning games in Ulster. As I said previously not one Cavan player had won a game outside of Ulster.
Dublin had three players with All Ireland U21 Medals, many more had Leinster Minor and All Ireland Medals. Suggesting that Cavan were anywhere near as experienced as Dublin is completely ludicrous.
You also criticise Peter for playing negative football but then call Roscommon "naive" for going man to man with them?
With the players we have at our disposal at the moment, our only chance of winning an Ulster title is playing a game with defence being the main focus. We simply don't have the forwards capable of outscoring Donegal, Monaghan, Tyrone.
I also think tying one manager to a style of football is very close minded. Managers change and evolve. Look at Terry, U21 in 2010 built on high catching, long kicking and lightning fast forwards, moved to a more defensive gameplan in 2011 after meeting the Donegal brick wall the previous year, brought the same plan to the Seniors and moved again to a faster breaking game this year mixed with the high ball into the target man. Look at how McGuiness evolved and Mickey Harte.
Leaving aside Peter (who is surely the best Cavan man that could be appointed) and the (extremely average) former Laois Manager, who else is out there? What's Tony McEntee at these days?
You accuse me of contradictions - you do realise we're essentially back to debating the same points that you refused to a couple of days ago?
You continue with your passionate language such as "ludicrous". Yes, Cavan players had never won a game outside Ulster at U21 level but seeing as they only have the option of playing two a year that's not a surprising feat!
As I've said, Cavan were an experienced team. Many of them in their third season and with three Ulster medals in their back pockets. I would not accept that Dublin had vastly more experience than that Cavan panel. You don't have to accept that if you don't wish to but we're going round in circles at this juncture so it's easier to agree to disagree.
Did I criticise Peter for playing negative football in that game? The seniors need something else now though. A change of style is clearly needed. I'd prefer just leave Terry in charge if we're looking like Peter Reilly as a replacement. He offers nothing new.
Nobody has a problem with defence being the focus of our play but we need to work on our counter attack. I still don't know how you can think Cavan were playing a faster attacking game this year. We're still as slow as a wet week breaking forward. Re the high ball into the target man, the less said about that the better - the target man wasn't capable, because that clearly isn't his best position, the ball in was often poor and by the time we got it in to him, he was surrounded by three or four backs because we can't break at speed.
I'm sure you'll come back with some colourful language regarding our gallant losses but I don't see anything gallant about losing to a Monaghan team that were sloppy and played poorly and a Roscommon team that couldn't beat Fermanagh.
Peter Reilly will offer more of the same and for me the definition of madness is doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result.
An Armagh man actually said to me the other day that Joe Kernan is mad to get in somewhere and prove his worth again. Not sure we could afford him though.0 -
mylestheslasher wrote: »Fair enough if you want an experienced senior manager. It's my opinion that these don't work very often and id rather see the best of our own coaches get the job and for me Peter Reilly is the best of what we have. I believe outside managers don't work because they get paid and the lads they want to push to the limit don't, how can you ask for the sacrifice when your not making it yourself - that's my opinion on it anyway
If Peter is the best we have then it's time to go outside the county. We need an experienced manager for an inexperienced panel.
He offers nothing that Terry doesn't offer at a higher level anyway.0 -
Even leaving aside the whole Peter Reilly is not experienced enough argument which I really don't get, we have a lot of history in Cavan of going outside the county for managers and with very few exceptions it has resulted in nothing but repeating a cycle of instability and generally made us worse off than before said manager was in place. Unless there is someone of the ilk of Pete McGrath willing to take us on there is no way I would go outside the county for a manager, particularly when we now have a good underage structure in place with good Cavan football people involved at every level.
In general, outside managers don't work for various reasons.
Someone mentioned Joe Kernan and his time in Galway is a good example of this - done great with Armagh, bombed in Galway and hasn't managed an intercounty team since.
I jotted down who in my view are the top 10 football managers in my time and that would back up my views - we could probably spend pages debating some of the names on the list but changing one or two names doesn't change the net point.
So in no particularly order;
Kevin Heffernan (Dublin) - Dub through and through and never worked outside his native county afaik.
Sean Boylan (Meath) - Never worked outside Meath and a Meath man through and through.
Jim Mc Guinness (Donegal) - same as
Billy Morgan (Cork) as above
Mick O'Dwyer (Kerry, Kildare, Laois, Wicklow) - a noteable exception to the rule.
Mickey Harte (Tyrone) - Tyrone through and through
Brian McEniff (Donegal) - advised a few counties with varying degrees of success but never managed outside Donegal
Joe Kernan (Armagh and Galway) - legend in Armagh - the less said about his time in Galway the better and hasn't managed inter-county since.
Pete McGrath (Down and Fermanagh) Still early days to judge him as a manager outside his own county but so far so good in Fermanagh.
John O'Mahony (Galway, Mayo & Leitrim) Another exception to the general rule.
I also considered including Jack O'Connor, Pat Gilroy, Con Counihan, Pat O'Shea.
I left out Eamonn Coleman because unfortunately we in Cavan never got to see what he could have achieved due to his illness. 5 club titles with Gowna was an unbelievable achievement but he never had long enough outside his native county to say whether he would have been a success or not.0 -
Even leaving aside the whole Peter Reilly is not experienced enough argument which I really don't get, we have a lot of history in Cavan of going outside the county for managers and with very few exceptions it has resulted in nothing but repeating a cycle of instability and generally made us worse off than before said manager was in place. Unless there is someone of the ilk of Pete McGrath willing to take us on there is no way I would go outside the county for a manager, particularly when we now have a good underage structure in place with good Cavan football people involved at every level.
In general, outside managers don't work for various reasons.
Someone mentioned Joe Kernan and his time in Galway is a good example of this - done great with Armagh, bombed in Galway and hasn't managed an intercounty team since.
I jotted down who in my view are the top 10 football managers in my time and that would back up my views - we could probably spend pages debating some of the names on the list but changing one or two names doesn't change the net point.
So in no particularly order;
Kevin Heffernan (Dublin) - Dub through and through and never worked outside his native county afaik.
Sean Boylan (Meath) - Never worked outside Meath and a Meath man through and through.
Jim Mc Guinness (Donegal) - same as
Billy Morgan (Cork) as above
Mick O'Dwyer (Kerry, Kildare, Laois, Wicklow) - a noteable exception to the rule.
Mickey Harte (Tyrone) - Tyrone through and through
Brian McEniff (Donegal) - advised a few counties with varying degrees of success but never managed outside Donegal
Joe Kernan (Armagh and Galway) - legend in Armagh - the less said about his time in Galway the better and hasn't managed inter-county since.
Pete McGrath (Down and Fermanagh) Still early days to judge him as a manager outside his own county but so far so good in Fermanagh.
John O'Mahony (Galway, Mayo & Leitrim) Another exception to the general rule.
I also considered including Jack O'Connor, Pat Gilroy, Con Counihan, Pat O'Shea.
I left out Eamonn Coleman because unfortunately we in Cavan never got to see what he could have achieved due to his illness. 5 club titles with Gowna was an unbelievable achievement but he never had long enough outside his native county to say whether he would have been a success or not.
Eamonn Coleman may have been a Derry man but he was married to a Cavan woman and lived in Cavan so I'd consider him an inside man in your summary. The data backs up my point on this too. It would be crazy to go outside unless it was for a really top candidate.0 -
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I really should go and do some work but had a quick look at All-Ireland winning and losing managers since 1986 to check the stats.
There has been 29 All-Ireland Finals in that time so 29 losing and 29 winning managers.
Of those 58 managers:
53 were natives of the county they managed - that is 91%
The 5 who were not were
1998 Winning manager John O'Mahony, losing manager Mick O'Dwyer
2000 losing manager O'Mahony
2001 winning manager John O'Mahony
2006 losing manager Mickey Moran
So since 1986 John O'Mahony is the only "outside" manager to win An-Ireland.
Only 3 "outside" men have got to an All-Ireland in 29 years.0 -
I really should go and do some work but had a quick look at All-Ireland winning and losing managers since 1986 to check the stats.
There has been 29 All-Ireland Finals in that time so 29 losing and 29 winning managers.
Of those 58 managers:
53 were natives of the county they managed - that is 91%
The 5 who were not were
1998 Winning manager John O'Mahony, losing manager Mick O'Dwyer
2000 losing manager O'Mahony
2001 winning manager John O'Mahony
2006 losing manager Mickey Moran
So since 1986 John O'Mahony is the only "outside" manager to win An-Ireland.
Only 3 "outside" men have got to an All-Ireland in 29 years.
Very interesting stuff. I think the constant calls for an outside manager are indicative of the impatience and unrealistic expectation of the Cavan support. Nobody wants to wait to give an internal manager time to gain experience. They want results and they want it immediately.0 -
KeepTheFaith wrote: »Very interesting stuff. I think the constant calls for an outside manager are indicative of the impatience and unrealistic expectation of the Cavan support. Nobody wants to wait to give an internal manager time to gain experience. They want results and they want it immediately.
But sure 4 Ulster 21's in a row #futureisblue0 -
I'd be more interested in the manger on his skills and experience more so then whether he's a native of the county or not. Malachy O'Rourke, Rory Gallagher, Pete Mcgrath and Niall Carew are all having good seasons with counties that they're not native too.
That being said, I'd like to see Peter Reilly as the next manager. He'd be very familiar with all the young players within the county who may or may not have featured at county senior, U21 or minor level. He wouldn't need as much time to familiarise himself with players or develop a style of play.
Any word on when the club championships start? I heard somewhere that they wont begin until the county minors are knocked out. Surely that can't be true.0 -
Any word on when the club championships start? I heard somewhere that they wont begin until the county minors are knocked out. Surely that can't be true.[/QUOTE]
Friday 24th Mullahoran v Kingscourt in preliminary0 -
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Even leaving aside the whole Peter Reilly is not experienced enough argument which I really don't get, we have a lot of history in Cavan of going outside the county for managers and with very few exceptions it has resulted in nothing but repeating a cycle of instability and generally made us worse off than before said manager was in place. Unless there is someone of the ilk of Pete McGrath willing to take us on there is no way I would go outside the county for a manager, particularly when we now have a good underage structure in place with good Cavan football people involved at every level.
In general, outside managers don't work for various reasons.
Someone mentioned Joe Kernan and his time in Galway is a good example of this - done great with Armagh, bombed in Galway and hasn't managed an intercounty team since.
Other counties had/have able candidates available within the county. For example, look at Joe Kernan, he had years of success with Crossmaglen before. Cavan do not have anyone of that stature within the county IMO.
What does Peter Reilly offer that Terry Hyland doesn't? Both play to a similar system, a system we need to start moving away from, so what is to be gained from appointing Reilly? I've now said this on a number of occasions and nobody has attempted to even answer it other than Keepthefaith who seems to revel in every loss that we have. I dunno what specs he is watching games with but they certainly seem to sepeed up play and make us look like some sort of attacking behemoth!
A fresh impetus is needed IMO.
Joe Kernan walked away from Galway himself by the way:
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/joe-kernan-why-i-had-to-quit-galway-job-26669404.html
Think of the last twenty years. Our most successful managers have been Martin McHugh and Terry Hyland. After that you're looking at Val Andrews in '01 and a combination of Coleman/McElhennon in '04/'05. So three of our most successful have been from outside the county. For every Tommy Carr meanwhile, there's been a Donal Keoghan.
Even our top clubs tend to look outside the county for managers. Look at the Gaels for example. That says alot to me about the standard of coaching in the county.0 -
Anyone know if you an you block certain members posts on this site?0
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