The Official Cavan GAA Discussion thread.

celt262

Tom Joad wrote: »

- No you had to qualify to be a senior club surely??

Apparently not i was at a County Board meeting and the County chairman said any team can play Senior if they want , and that was always the case. Remember Ballinagh were relegated a few years ago and applied to County board to stay Senior.

Anyway later in the night they then went on to say that there would be relegation play offs this year, the first question from the floor was "whats the point in having relegation play offs if clubs can apply to play in whatever championship they want. This left the top table with blank faces.

Tom Joad

celt262 wrote: »

Apparently not i was at a County Board meeting and the County chairman said any team can play Senior if they want , and that was always the case. Remember Ballinagh were relegated a few years ago and applied to County board to stay Senior.

Anyway later in the night they then went on to say that there would be relegation play offs this year, the first question from the floor was "whats the point in having relegation play offs if clubs can apply to play in whatever championship they want. This left the top table with blank faces.

Ah county board politics - I remember the Ballinagh fiasco now that you mention it.

Re second bit it's a fair question..

I just think clubs are getting too much say in this and no club is going to get a mandate from its members to vote itself out of the senior championship so somebody needs to bite the bullet for the good of club football in the county.

What is your view on the structure/ number of senior clubs??

cartoonninja

think amalgamations are the way to go. It was raise the standard of football being played and there's and argument that it would be beneficial to the likes of Rory Dunne to play full back for club and county instead of midfield for his club and full back for the county (only using him as an example)

willabur

far too many clubs in the county is right - but as history has shown - amalgamations rarely work out as you are asking clubs who would be natural rivals to play with each other

celt262

Tom Joad wrote: »

Ah county board politics - I remember the Ballinagh fiasco now that you mention it.

Re second bit it's a fair question..

I just think clubs are getting too much say in this and no club is going to get a mandate from its members to vote itself out of the senior championship so somebody needs to bite the bullet for the good of club football in the county.

What is your view on the structure/ number of senior clubs??

There are way to many clubs and amalgamations are probably the way forward and i think in the next few years we may see some of the smaller clubs having to amalgamate even for the league.

The big problem is no club wants to do that as you know yourself the GAA club is a big part of the local community and no club wants to dilute its identity so they will struggle on scrapping numbers together with lads who wouldn't have got a look in before and lowering the standard.

To be honest if Cavan are going to have long summers similar to the one we have just had and hopefully better ones there will be no place for the structure that was proposed for this year. In that proposal the Intermediate and Junior Championships were to be played earlier in the summer but that wouldn't have happened this year and there wouldn't have been time to run all off from second weekend in August.

One thing i think we would all agree on is that Club football is very poor in the county.

Tom Joad

celt262 wrote: »

There are way to many clubs and amalgamations are probably the way forward and i think in the next few years we may see some of the smaller clubs having to amalgamate even for the league.

The big problem is no club wants to do that as you know yourself the GAA club is a big part of the local community and no club wants to dilute its identity so they will struggle on scrapping numbers together with lads who wouldn't have got a look in before and lowering the standard.

To be honest if Cavan are going to have long summers similar to the one we have just had and hopefully better ones there will be no place for the structure that was proposed for this year. In that proposal the Intermediate and Junior Championships were to be played earlier in the summer but that wouldn't have happened this year and there wouldn't have been time to run all off from second weekend in August.

One thing i think we would all agree on is that Club football is very poor in the county.

I know its easy to slag the county board and to be fair they have got more things right than wrong in recent years but for the sake of football in the county they need to take the bull by the horns and deliver the new structures. Of course no club wants to vote itself out of existence and that is not what is on the cards as I understand it. The timing of when the championships are playing can be worked out I think without too much issue.

The new structure should be given a chance and I think clubs will go for it after seeing it in operation and it will mean more meaningful games for clubs and a better quality of club football and a league that is not a joke..

Pete_Cavan

"Tom wrote:

What is your view on the structure/ number of senior clubs??

Under the current system the league is too long with too many meaningless matches. In divisions 1A and 1B teams should only play each other once as 18 league games soon becomes very tedious for players and motivation drops. 9 matches each would leave enough time for a new, third, competition to be introduced where all but the strongest 3/4 teams would amalgamate which would the best players a chance to play a higher standard of football. The senior, intermediate and junior championships could remain so clubs do not loss their identity. At least an extra competition introduces more competitive games instead of a drawn out league where many teams are out of contention one third of the way in. Whatever changes are made the league must be finished before the championship starts, otherwise mid table teams throw in the towel once they are eliminated from their championship and the final table is skewed as a result.

Crash Bang Wall

cartoonninja wrote: »

think amalgamations are the way to go. It was raise the standard of football being played and there's and argument that it would be beneficial to the likes of Rory Dunne to play full back for club and county instead of midfield for his club and full back for the county (only using him as an example)

Dunne was actually FB for Redhills against Castlerahan. He was moved out in ET when Redhills were chasing the game and they fell apart at the back

But I see your point re amalgamations. Levels can only improve. Maybe the Senior Championship should be Cavan Gaels and amalgamions, and then clubs in Junior and Intermediate. Regional Amalgamtions though. The idea of clubs picking and choosing who they amalgamate with is ridiculous. The reason I leave the Gaels on their own is the population they have to pick from.

Crash Bang Wall

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Under the current system the league is too long with too many meaningless matches. In divisions 1A and 1B teams should only play each other once as 18 league games soon becomes very tedious for players and motivation drops. 9 matches each would leave enough time for a new, third, competition to be introduced where all but the strongest 3/4 teams would amalgamate which would the best players a chance to play a higher standard of football. The senior, intermediate and junior championships could remain so clubs do not loss their identity. At least an extra competition introduces more competitive games instead of a drawn out league where many teams are out of contention one third of the way in. Whatever changes are made the league must be finished before the championship starts, otherwise mid table teams throw in the towel once they are eliminated from their championship and the final table is skewed as a result.

18 League games is ridiculous. 8-12 is plenty

Tom Joad

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

18 League games is ridiculous. 8-12 is plenty

Would agree with this - 9/10 teams max in first division or 1Aor whatever you want to call it..

Tom Joad

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

But I see your point re amalgamations. Levels can only improve. Maybe the Senior Championship should be Cavan Gaels and amalgamions, and then clubs in Junior and Intermediate. Regional Amalgamtions though. The idea of clubs picking and choosing who they amalgamate with is ridiculous. The reason I leave the Gaels on their own is the population they have to pick from.

Jaysus I wouldn't go that far - I don't think Gaels are that far ahead anymore - I would also think that Mullahoran, Kingscourt, Ramor and Castlerahan would easily be near that standard and should be senior clubs and you could argue a few more but 17 is too many. It should be first 8 clubs in the league that are allowed play senior and the rest should be amalgmations

Would agree that Regional amalgamations are the only way this could work and the geography of the county would lend itself to that. For example anyclub west of Belturbet could from a west cavan amalgamation (Blacklion, Ballyconnell, Templeport etc). you could have a further pocket around Belturbet, Redhills, Belturbet/ another of the Town clubs eg Drumalee, Killygarry/ another around east Cavan - Cuchullains, Maghera, Munterconnaght/ another around Baileboro, knockbride, shercock etc / similar south of Cavan town Ballinagh, Lacken, Cornafean/ another for Cootehill and Drumgoon areas.

I know I have missed out a lot of clubs such as Denn, Lavey, Arva etc but you get the general idea..

Also important that any club that amalgamates plays in the league and junior or intermediate championship in its own right.

Smithwicks Man

As long as the County Board keeps putting the County team so far ahead of the club scene, club football in the conty will never improve.

Cavan win a couple of games in the championship and all of a sudden the club games are put on hold and the club championship is postponed for weeks/months. It's ridiculous.

The set up employed by the county board is a shambles.

The same can be said from underage up. The county minors win a couple of games and all of a sudden the club minor league is being dragged out from February through to the end of July.

This is then followed by younger players having the play u16 and minor championship games the same week. "Get it over and done with" is the attitude of the county board and as long as this neglect of the underage set up continues, nothing will change.

Amalgamations are not the magical solution many believe them to be and clubs with 40/50+ players will certainly not want to be amalgamating.

The likes of Drung/Kill could possibly play as St.Finbarr's as they do so right through underage and perhaps Maghera/Corlough/Kildallon etc. who are at the bottom of Division 4 could also amalgamate with someone if they are stuck for numbers and can't compete. No top-tier club in their right mind will amalgamate however.

Totally goes against the ethos of the game in the name of seeking glory

Pete_Cavan

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

Amalgamations are not the magical solution many believe them to be and clubs with 40/50+ players will certainly not want to be amalgamating.

The likes of Drung/Kill could possibly play as St.Finbarr's as they do so right through underage and perhaps Maghera/Corlough/Kildallon etc. who are at the bottom of Division 4 could also amalgamate with someone if they are stuck for numbers and can't compete. No top-tier club in their right mind will amalgamate however.

Totally goes against the ethos of the game in the name of seeking glory

There are no clubs in the county with 40/50+ players, maybe registered players but in terms of genuine players who train every week any club would be doing well to get 30. There are guys in every club who show up when it suits them but competitions should not be structured to suit them too, the guys who are really comitted are more important and if amalgamations can benefit these then it should be considered.

I suggested a third competition should be introduced containing amalgamated teams because this allows clubs to retain their identity and does not dilute the Senior Championship. I dont think teams are interested in amalgamating for the Senior Championship but they may be more willing to do so for another competition where almost everybody else is amalgamating as well. This is the best way to allow good intermediate/junior players to play against senior players (which is what they need to improve) while staying with their native club.

We need another competition anyway, the current league is too long and drawn out with lots of teams having nothing to play for half way through it. A shorter league would make it more competitive and would leave time for another competition with more chance of silverware and fresh motivation. Such a competition could be played even if county players are unavailable as amalgamated teams would be able to cope better without their county players than individual clubs.

celt262

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I suggested a third competition should be introduced containing amalgamated teams because this allows clubs to retain their identity and does not dilute the Senior Championship. I dont think teams are interested in amalgamating for the Senior Championship but they may be more willing to do so for another competition where almost everybody else is amalgamating as well. This is the best way to allow good intermediate/junior players to play against senior players (which is what they need to improve) while staying with their native club.

We need another competition anyway, the current league is too long and drawn out with lots of teams having nothing to play for half way through it. A shorter league would make it more competitive and would leave time for another competition with more chance of silverware and fresh motivation. Such a competition could be played even if county players are unavailable as amalgamated teams would be able to cope better without their county players than individual clubs.

When would you think would be a good time to play this competition ?


If you were to play without county players would it not make it meaningless as the idea behind such amalgamations is to improve the standard, can you do this when the best players are not playing in it?

Smithwicks Man

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

There are no clubs in the county with 40/50+ players, maybe registered players but in terms of genuine players who train every week any club would be doing well to get 30. There are guys in every club who show up when it suits them but competitions should not be structured to suit them too, the guys who are really comitted are more important and if amalgamations can benefit these then it should be considered.

I suggested a third competition should be introduced containing amalgamated teams because this allows clubs to retain their identity and does not dilute the Senior Championship. I dont think teams are interested in amalgamating for the Senior Championship but they may be more willing to do so for another competition where almost everybody else is amalgamating as well. This is the best way to allow good intermediate/junior players to play against senior players (which is what they need to improve) while staying with their native club.

We need another competition anyway, the current league is too long and drawn out with lots of teams having nothing to play for half way through it. A shorter league would make it more competitive and would leave time for another competition with more chance of silverware and fresh motivation. Such a competition could be played even if county players are unavailable as amalgamated teams would be able to cope better without their county players than individual clubs.

Say they do only have 30 then. In an amalgamation only 7/8 of these players would be playing? What are the other 20/30 odd players supposed to do? Twiddle their thumbs and play in this "new competition" while the others play in the proper championship. Amalgamations will not improve the standard by enough of a degree to offset the negative effects.

But sure when the county board sets up the club senior championship in such a way that the Gaels can beat Lacken in their first 2 matches and then meet them again in their 4th match, it's no wonder the whole thing is a shambles

celt262

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

But sure when the county board sets up the club senior championship in such a way that the Gaels can beat Lacken in their first 2 matches and then meet them again in their 4th match, it's no wonder the whole thing is a shambles

That my man is the way a open draw works

munchkin_utd

celt262 wrote: »

That my man is the way a open draw works

no, the draw is very very dodge as the losers of the Lacken v Gaels game in the prelim round had a back door option which led straight back to who won that prelim game previously.

Heres a flow chart from facebook which lays out the draw (hope it works).

Tom Joad

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

Say they do only have 30 then. In an amalgamation only 7/8 of these players would be playing? What are the other 20/30 odd players supposed to do? Twiddle their thumbs and play in this "new competition" while the others play in the proper championship. Amalgamations will not improve the standard by enough of a degree to offset the negative effects.

The way I would see it workingand the way it works in other counties is that, for arguments sake take Shercock - as per usual Shercock play in the Junior championship and the league -nothing really changes there. When senior championship time comes Shercock join with Bailieboro and Knockbride and play in the senior championship - that way Shercock's top players can play at a higher level and players like Killian Clarke get to play at senior championship level. Can only improve the standard of football and footballers in the county. This has worked successfully at minor level - for instance Sherock joined with Bailieboro as Killann Gaels to win the minor championship in 2009 (i'm guessing here but I would say Clarke, O'Mara and Gilsenan may have been around them teams!!)

It's a simple concept and works well in other counties and if the clubs got their heads out of their own arses they would see that this is the only way to go.

Tom Joad

munchkin_utd wrote: »

no, the draw is very very dodge as the losers of the Lacken v Gaels game in the prelim round had a back door option which led straight back to who won that prelim game previously.

Heres a flow chart from facebook which lays out the draw (hope it works).

Only in Cavan could a club potentially lose three matches in a knockout championship and still win it!!:D

cournioni

Tom Joad wrote: »

The way I would see it workingand the way it works in other counties is that, for arguments sake take Shercock - as per usual Shercock play in the Junior championship and the league -nothing really changes there. When senior championship time comes Shercock join with Bailieboro and Knockbride and play in the senior championship - that way Shercock's top players can play at a higher level and players like Killian Clarke get to play at senior championship level. Can only improve the standard of football and footballers in the county. This has worked successfully at minor level - for instance Sherock joined with Bailieboro as Killann Gaels to win the minor championship in 2009 (i'm guessing here but I would say Clarke, O'Mara and Gilsenan may have been around them teams!!)

It's a simple concept and works well in other counties and if the clubs got their heads out of their own arses they would see that this is the only way to go.

*ahem* Intermediate...

Tom Joad

cournioni wrote: »

*ahem* Intermediate...

Sorry my bad

celt262

munchkin_utd wrote: »

no, the draw is very very dodge as the losers of the Lacken v Gaels game in the prelim round had a back door option which led straight back to who won that prelim game previously.

Heres a flow chart from facebook which lays out the draw (hope it works).

Thanks for that, but it doesn't change the fact that its a open draw.

Pete_Cavan

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

Say they do only have 30 then. In an amalgamation only 7/8 of these players would be playing? What are the other 20/30 odd players supposed to do? Twiddle their thumbs and play in this "new competition" while the others play in the proper championship. Amalgamations will not improve the standard by enough of a degree to offset the negative effects.

Again, you are seriously over estimating the number of players available to each club. Check out the results for the reserve leagues and see the number of walk overs. From my experience, any club was lucky to get more than 5 or 6 reserve matches this year. Clubs like Killygarry and Crosserlough, who had three teams a few years ago, struggled to field a second team at times this year. Belturbet didnt even enter a second team. AFAIK the rules for the reserve championship were changed to exclude 12 named players, as opposed to everyone who played in the senior/intermediate/junior championship to ensure that clubs would still be able field a a reserve team after using 20 players for the first team.

A competition with amalgamated teams can still have a reserve competition to allow amalgamations to put out a second or third team. It would be similar to the reserve leagues now, matches played as double headers. This would give those not involved in the first team a certain number of guaranteed matches instead of the current situation where they are hoping they/the opposition can field a team, or having to play 13 a side. Under my proposal these players do less twiddling of thumbs that sticking with the status quo.

Pete_Cavan

celt262 wrote: »

When would you think would be a good time to play this competition ?


If you were to play without county players would it not make it meaningless as the idea behind such amalgamations is to improve the standard, can you do this when the best players are not playing in it?

Between intercounty league and championship is probably the best time. I meant if county players are unavailable for an odd weekend (ie. they have a challenge match or weekend before an Ulster championship match) matches could still be played. Obviously if county players were missing for the entire competition it would defeat the purpose.

Smithwicks Man

celt262 wrote: »

That my man is the way a open draw works

That's how an idiot's draw works. An open draw with 17 teams should be set up in such a manner as to avoid 1 team's opening 2 matches to be against the same team twice. Amateur job

Smithwicks Man

Tom Joad wrote: »

The way I would see it workingand the way it works in other counties is that, for arguments sake take Shercock - as per usual Shercock play in the Junior championship and the league -nothing really changes there. When senior championship time comes Shercock join with Bailieboro and Knockbride and play in the senior championship - that way Shercock's top players can play at a higher level and players like Killian Clarke get to play at senior championship level. Can only improve the standard of football and footballers in the county. This has worked successfully at minor level - for instance Sherock joined with Bailieboro as Killann Gaels to win the minor championship in 2009 (i'm guessing here but I would say Clarke, O'Mara and Gilsenan may have been around them teams!!)

It's a simple concept and works well in other counties and if the clubs got their heads out of their own arses they would see that this is the only way to go.

Now that could work. If lower teams join up and play senior as an amalgamation and junior as themselves. That's the only way it could work

celt262

Smithwicks Man wrote: »

That's how an idiot's draw works. An open draw with 17 teams should be set up in such a manner as to avoid 1 team's opening 2 matches to be against the same team twice. Amateur job

Then it would not be an open draw i suppose if it was done that way.

What do you mean by the bit in bold it does not make any sense to me?

28064212

celt262 wrote: »

Then it would not be an open draw i suppose if it was done that way.

What do you mean by the bit in bold it does not make any sense to me?

Cavan Gael's first two games were both against Lacken

munchkin_utd

celt262 wrote: »

Then it would not be an open draw i suppose if it was done that way.

What do you mean by the bit in bold it does not make any sense to me?

theres no need to rig the draw or go into any complicated rules if you simply organise your fixtures template and say that the first 2 teams at home are the winners of the prelim and the 3rd team is the winner of the prelim loosers play off.
Then do an open draw and anyone can play anyone, except prelim teams are by design kept apart.

giving teams from the preliminary round an automatic home advantage in round 1 could also be arged to be fair seeing as they were already disadvantaged by having to play 1 or 2 more games than everyone else.

Smithwicks Man

celt262 wrote: »

Then it would not be an open draw i suppose if it was done that way.

What do you mean by the bit in bold it does not make any sense to me?

It would still be an open draw. The "openness" of the draw is not the issue, it's the format.

The way they have set the draw out this year. Cavan Gaels could be playing Lacken in 3 of their first 4 matches which is just ludicrous.