The Official Cavan GAA Discussion thread.

celt262

Jampip wrote: »

I think there's room for positional changes and some positions are not nailed on. What do you think the full forward line will be for example?

I think he will play Martin Dunne with Argue.

It also could be Dunne with Clarke or McDermott.

I would not play Dunne myself the Monaghan defence will bully and abuse him like they did in Clones two years ago and he doesn't perform under this kind of pressure.

willabur

it all sounds like an awful idea, sticking a guy in the full forward line just because he is big smacks of zero tactical idea of how to break down any defence let alone this Monaghan one. Kerry have had success with Donaghy primarily because he is a great no14 but also massively contributing to his success is the quality of service getting into him. If in a couple of weeks time Argue is in on the full forward line then I will fear the absolute worst

celt262

willabur wrote: »

it all sounds like an awful idea, sticking a guy in the full forward line just because he is big smacks of zero tactical idea of how to break down any defence let alone this Monaghan one. Kerry have had success with Donaghy primarily because he is a great no14 but also massively contributing to his success is the quality of service getting into him. If in a couple of weeks time Argue is in on the full forward line then I will fear the absolute worst

Who would you play along side Dunne, the options are limited.

rrs

Fear the worst why? Bud fitz, martin dunne and tom hayes are all small players.
Cavan need a phyical presence in there, something which keating had. Argue and killian clarke play a lot of club football in the forward line.

Eoin o gara while not the best footballer gave that for dublin. He will be a loss in the championship.

Jampip

rrs wrote: »

Fear the worst why? Bud fitz, martin dunne and tom hayes are all small players.
Cavan need a phyical presence in there, something which keating had. Argue and killian clarke play a lot of club football in the forward line.

Eoin o gara while not the best footballer gave that for dublin. He will be a loss in the championship.

Argue didn't look a full forward against either Kildare or Meath. In fairness, against Kildare, he looked very rusty coming back from injury. The ball went into him alot and he didn't make it stick which is what a full forward needs to do.

He looked alot more adept against Meath out around the 40 winning ball and helping out the midfield. Roscommon used Donie Shine in a position like that in the League final last year and it worked well for them. Shine basically played on the 40 but dropped into midfield for kick outs and when needed. I think that's the role for Argue.

I think we have nothing to lose trying Killian Clarke in there. He's one of our most naturally gifted, athletic players. The backline is performing alright without him so I'd see what he can bring to the forwards.

If I was picking the team, the only changes I'd have from the team above would be for Clarke and Ronan Flanagan to change positions, put Farrelly in goals and, depending on how Dunne is going in training, I'd see whether he should start or come on.

To be honest, I can't see who we'd start ahead of him though. Jack Brady, Hayes and Fitzpatrick haven't impressed me much either.

rrs

The backline has been alright yeah, maybe a bit loose this year with the emphasis more on attack with Liam McHale on board. Peter Donnelly had the defessive structure solid enough from U21 to Senior, but had to expand on that.

Pauric Faulkner is a player I'd like to see on the Senior panel, tough player and maybe offers more of a physical edge then either Ronan Flanagan or Jason McClaughlin. They are good players all the same.

SheldonC17

Would agree that Argue should be played at wing forward as he's a good option for kickouts, lets in good ball and capable of taking a long range score.

Its seems Ciaran Brady had played quite a bit and I would like to see him start in place of R. Flanagan. I would also start K. Clarke in the backs as I feel McDermott can do a decent job as a target man. That would leave us with some good ball carriers in Clarke, Brady, McVeety and of course Mackey. The need for a big inside forward is not massively important if this lads can create space for DunneMcDermott.

Jampip

SheldonC17 wrote: »

Would agree that Argue should be played at wing forward as he's a good option for kickouts, lets in good ball and capable of taking a long range score.

Its seems Ciaran Brady had played quite a bit and I would like to see him start in place of R. Flanagan. I would also start K. Clarke in the backs as I feel McDermott can do a decent job as a target man. That would leave us with some good ball carriers in Clarke, Brady, McVeety and of course Mackey. The need for a big inside forward is not massively important if this lads can create space for DunneMcDermott.

When Flanagan is fit, he starts. That's the way it has been with Cavan for the past decade or so and I can't see it changing. I can't disagree either because I think his experience was missed last year. He's without doubt our most experienced player by a mile. I actually think for his size he's become quite physical under Hyland and isn't afraid to throw in a hard shoulder now. I'm also surprised that you say taking him out would leave us with good ball carriers. Flanagan is one of our better ball carriers and foot passers. He just needs to stop turning sideways or backwards and actually use his pace with the ball.

The problem with Dunne is that he'll be bullied off the ball even before he gets it. The Monaghan game two years ago showed he isn't up for the battle. There's no point in Mackey playing a ball into space if Dunne is afraid to go and win it.

The one problem I do have with Clarke starting in the forward line is that his shooting is often atrocious. He'd be there purely to win the ball and lay it off.

SheldonC17

Jampip wrote: »

When Flanagan is fit, he starts. That's the way it has been with Cavan for the past decade or so and I can't see it changing. I can't disagree either because I think his experience was missed last year. He's without doubt our most experienced player by a mile. I actually think for his size he's become quite physical under Hyland and isn't afraid to throw in a hard shoulder now. I'm also surprised that you say taking him out would leave us with good ball carriers. Flanagan is one of our better ball carriers and foot passers. He just needs to stop turning sideways or backwards and actually use his pace with the ball.

The problem with Dunne is that he'll be bullied off the ball even before he gets it. The Monaghan game two years ago showed he isn't up for the battle. There's no point in Mackey playing a ball into space if Dunne is afraid to go and win it.

The one problem I do have with Clarke starting in the forward line is that his shooting is often atrocious. He'd be there purely to win the ball and lay it off.

I personally feel Flanagan is one of the main reasons for our slow build up play as, like you said he is usually more interested in turning backwards or sideways. Now this could well be the instructions hes given. Also I agree he will start if fit, but I just done see him being the best in his role. He is rarely asked to mark someone and is normally a spare man. In that role maybe Martin Reilly would be better suited with his engine to get up and down the pitch.

Jampip

SheldonC17 wrote: »

I personally feel Flanagan is one of the main reasons for our slow build up play as, like you said he is usually more interested in turning backwards or sideways. Now this could well be the instructions hes given. Also I agree he will start if fit, but I just done see him being the best in his role. He is rarely asked to mark someone and is normally a spare man. In that role maybe Martin Reilly would be better suited with his engine to get up and down the pitch.

I think Martin needs to stay up in the forward line more tbh. I know he can pull the strings by dropping back but he's one of the few players we have who can take a score and we need him to take that responsibility on when he can. For me, all he lacks from being a top class player is the arrogance that they have. He's too nice.

One criticism I'd level at the panel is that we've too many similar players - lads who have good engines, cover a lot of ground and can pick a pass but don't score much. We need a few more willing to take on a score.

celt262 wrote: »

I think he will play Martin Dunne with Argue.

It also could be Dunne with Clarke or McDermott.

I would not play Dunne myself the Monaghan defence will bully and abuse him like they did in Clones two years ago and he doesn't perform under this kind of pressure.

Who would you play in there if you were selecting the full forward line?

celt262

Jampip wrote: »

I think Martin needs to stay up in the forward line more tbh. I know he can pull the strings by dropping back but he's one of the few players we have who can take a score and we need him to take that responsibility on when he can. For me, all he lacks from being a top class player is the arrogance that they have. He's too nice.

One criticism I'd level at the panel is that we've too many similar players - lads who have good engines, cover a lot of ground and can pick a pass but don't score much. We need a few more willing to take on a score.



Who would you play in there if you were selecting the full forward line?

Don't know we have nobody on panel that will make much of an impact against Monaghan full back line and scores will have to come from further out.

willabur

rrs wrote: »

Fear the worst why? Bud fitz, martin dunne and tom hayes are all small players.
Cavan need a phyical presence in there, something which keating had. Argue and killian clarke play a lot of club football in the forward line.

Eoin o gara while not the best footballer gave that for dublin. He will be a loss in the championship.

Square pegs, round holes. The fact that we are looking/considering using a Big man who hasn't played any meaningful football as a full forward smacks of desperation. Rather than change things now we need to stick with the system we have been playing with all season.

KeepTheFaith

Have to say I agree with willabur on this one. We saw what happened with Clarke in full forward in the League. It's just not feasible at this level to throw a big guy in the full forward line and expect him to take or make enough scores in an Ulster Championship game. Ulster Championship is not the place for trying new things for the first time. Stick to what we know and if it doesn't work and we're staring down the barrell then fine, attempt a curve ball. McDermott and Dunne inside is what management should go with from the start.

rrs

willabur wrote: »

Square pegs, round holes. The fact that we are looking/considering using a Big man who hasn't played any meaningful football as a full forward smacks of desperation. Rather than change things now we need to stick with the system we have been playing with all season.

It's good to have variety, and you won't till how it will go , could be a success or a failure.


The Kildare game the ball wasn't delivered into Clarke quick or the FF line in general. They would have worked on that since the end of the League I'm sure.

Tom Joad

Would be a big gamble to start Clarke/Argue on the edge of the square and start lumping ball in because they are big men. Can't really see this happening as a Plan A.

People talk about Kerry doing it to utilise Donaghy but what they are overlooking is that Kerry don't just lump the ball in on top of Donaghy. They have trained and practiced giving the perfect ball in and is something they have spent a lot of time working on.

What Kerry do is a long way from just hoofing balls into a big man on the edge of the square and if Cavan start doing this in the championship with the "let it to fock in" attitude we will be destroyed by Monaghan. Letting ball in to a big man is the last thing we should be doing with someone like Colin Walshe on the field. What I would like to see us do is to get better at kicking long range points rather than run up blind alleys by constantly recycling ball and turning back on ourselves. This is imho the key to beating Monaghan as well as breaking from defence at pace.

Niall McDermott is seriously under rated by many but is well capable of winning his own ball. I would leave him in a two man forward line with Martin Dunne and try to get them moving into the corners as much as possible and dragging defenders with them and leaving space for Mackey, GmcK, Clarke, McVitty to drive into.

baconsarnie

Tom Joad wrote: »

Would be a big gamble to start Clarke/Argue on the edge of the square and start lumping ball in because they are big men.

I know there has been a clamber to (rightly) call for more attractive, attacking football- but you're 100% right, simply hanging it up for the big man is dead & gone as a strategy

Players taking a risk with long distance efforts is a way to beat a blanket defence and also to overcome our own obsession with possession & recycling

Leave the inside forward line as is, play a high intensity game based on players believing in themselves & if needs be go Hail Mary if we're chasing in the last 10- but please god no, not from the start

celt262

Horse it in.

rrs

No guarantee Walshe will be starting , he is only back in training after a cruciate ligament injury.

I thought it was obvious from a lot of Cavan games this year that a target man was needed, the Down game was one in particular. If it's a pissing wet day, which it well could be on the 26th, Martin Dunne won't win much ball.

willabur

rrs wrote: »

It's good to have variety, and you won't till how it will go , could be a success or a failure.


The Kildare game the ball wasn't delivered into Clarke quick or the FF line in general. They would have worked on that since the end of the League I'm sure.

Its too late in the day for a whole sale change in philosophy. We are a short passing, running team.

For me the key to the way we play and how I think football should be played is where the pass into the forwards is played from. The shorter the distance, the more accurate it is and the less time for a defender to counter act. Plus you don't have to be a massive man either to win your ball if the ball is played to your favour. The classic example is Dunnes goal vs Fermanagh in 2013

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxzVma1B2dw

Last year the ball was coming from further out the field. Last year dunne (if he wasn't injured) would have been picking that ball up 30/40 yards out from goal where there is traffic, far less chance of a score let alone a goal

rrs

We'll see what happpens anyway. Martin Dunne was well shackled in 2013 against Monaghan.

tayto lover

Cavan would be better to totally crowd midfield and then from the possession gained attack in waves with players moving all over the forward line creating space. This would totally confuse the Monaghan backs. It would also alleviate the need for big men in the forward line.
Hope you win.

Jampip

Tom Joad wrote: »

Would be a big gamble to start Clarke/Argue on the edge of the square and start lumping ball in because they are big men. Can't really see this happening as a Plan A.

Niall McDermott is seriously under rated by many but is well capable of winning his own ball. I would leave him in a two man forward line with Martin Dunne and try to get them moving into the corners as much as possible and dragging defenders with them and leaving space for Mackey, GmcK, Clarke, McVitty to drive into.

Last year we tried David Givney at full forward vs Armagh and he hadn't featured there at all in the league. Clarke/Argue have both been tried at full forward.

My own opinion is that Dunne just doesn't have the fight to go for it in the full forward line against Monaghan. You need a scrapper in there and he isn't that. He wants clean ball, given to his chest and he's not willing to fight to get it.

I agree with you re McDermott. The only problem I find with him is that he often runs into trouble or turns back into the man rather than slipping away from him. He's good at winning the ball but not winning it in space.

Can anyone comment on Mackey's fitness? I was told he didn't look match fit last weekend vs London.

Tom Joad

Heard McHale was spending a lot of time working hard with Mackey over the last while. I seen him a few weeks back in a pair of swimming togs and he looked ripped. Wouldn't be too concerned tbh as he should be flying come 24th May.

Jampip

One important point. I don't think anyone mentioning a big man up front at full forward expects Cavan to go long every ball. I myself think it'd be good to have someone in there so the ball can be let in when needed and to keep Monaghan on their toes.

Argue played full forward for Bailieboro against Butlersbridge last week and the opinion I heard was that the position definitely doesn't suit him even at club football.

lycan238

Hi anyone going to the match in Virginia tomorrow evening?

Jampip

lycan238 wrote: »

Hi anyone going to the match in Virginia tomorrow evening?

Would have went to it if it was tonight but don't fancy hitting Virginia on a Sunday evening at half six. Traffic is usually ridiculous round then anyway and will be even worse.

Does anyone know why it's tomorrow and not tonight? Sunday evening is a strange time for a game.

lycan238

Dont know being honest. One thing I will say is that a lot of the traffic will be heading south bound tomorrow night ie next kells, navan etc. If attending leave extra time to get there due to the volume of traffic that will be on the roads. I would go but I am not feeling too well so probably will stay at home in front of the fire.

celt262

Argue with two goals tonight anyone know where he played? Were they letting it in?

Jampip

celt262 wrote: »

Argue with two goals tonight anyone know where he played? Were they letting it in?

Dolan Park Pitch Opening (2nd half,21 min) Cavan 1-11 Meath 1-7 #gaa M Argue fist to the net Cavan GOAL

One was a fisted goal so I'd imagine full forward. Looks like he'll start there vs Monaghan. I therefore predict the team to be:

Gilly
McLoughlin
Dunne
Clarke
F Flanagan
McEnroe
O'Reilly
Corr
McKiernan
Mackey
Reilly
Dara Mc
McDermott
Argue
Dunne/Flanagan

lycan238

Did we win? What was the score? Was it a good match?

Jampip

lycan238 wrote: »

Did we win? What was the score? Was it a good match?

2-14 to 1-8. We won.

Tom Joad

lycan238 wrote: »

Did we win? What was the score? Was it a good match?

Won 2-14 to 1-8. Argue with both goals in second half. Was following on facebook.

Tom Joad

Jampip wrote: »

Dolan Park Pitch Opening (2nd half,21 min) Cavan 1-11 Meath 1-7 #gaa M Argue fist to the net Cavan GOAL

One was a fisted goal so I'd imagine full forward. Looks like he'll start there vs Monaghan. I therefore predict the team to be:

Gilly
McLoughlin
Dunne
Clarke
F Flanagan
McEnroe
O'Reilly
Corr
McKiernan
Mackey
Reilly
Dara Mc
McDermott
Argue
Dunne/Flanagan

Would agree with that as a starting 15 with Flanagan ahead of Martin Dunne. Would prefer Farrelly in nets but gilly will probably start.

lycan238

Jampip wrote: »

2-14 to 1-8. We won.

Tom Joad wrote: »

Won 2-14 to 1-8. Argue with both goals in second half. Was following on facebook.

nice one almost double scores 20 vs 11 always gets the confidence up. Lets hope for a great performance vs Monaghan.

Did I see changes to the championship format in todays sunday world something to do with marches? How would that effect us if we beat monaghan and get to ulster final?

KeepTheFaith

I'd agree that will be the starting team too. Clarke to pick up McManus. Concerned about Argue at Full Forward though, it's a sign of slight desperation on behalf of management. And highly unlikely that a guy who plays most of his football at midfield can come in and make an impact in the Ulster Championship at full forward.

cavan4sam

lycan238 wrote:

Did I see changes to the championship format in todays sunday world something to do with marches? How would that effect us if we beat monaghan and get to ulster final?

I think it only impacts on the All Ireland Semi format. Unfortunately it might not affect us this year .
Re. Argue at full forward i quite the idea of a target man but i think our problem will be the same as when keating and givney were on the square and that will be lack of ball quickly into them

Thunderbirds

Keating got lots of ball but often shot from ridiculous angles. Giveny just couldn't play with his back to goal. Did Killian Clarke do hamstring again?

cournioni

Thunderbirds wrote: »

Keating got lots of ball but often shot from ridiculous angles. Giveny just couldn't play with his back to goal. Did Killian Clarke do hamstring again?

Dead leg as far as I know.

Jampip

Anyone have the team from last night?

KeepTheFaith wrote: »

I'd agree that will be the starting team too. Clarke to pick up McManus. Concerned about Argue at Full Forward though, it's a sign of slight desperation on behalf of management. And highly unlikely that a guy who plays most of his football at midfield can come in and make an impact in the Ulster Championship at full forward.

I think someone is needed in there so that we can mix it up. I'm not sure Argue is the man from what I've seen so far but I'm sure they will have been working on it in training.

Cavan are too slow, ponderous and predictable. At least having a second option allows some tatical change now and again, and keeps the oppposition guessing.

willabur

Jampip wrote: »

Anyone have the team from last night?



I think someone is needed in there so that we can mix it up. I'm not sure Argue is the man from what I've seen so far but I'm sure they will have been working on it in training.

Cavan are too slow, ponderous and predictable. At least having a second option allows some tatical change now and again, and keeps the opposition guessing.

When you are playing against the blanket defence the tactic least likely to work is the long ball in, it just doesn't bear fruit. Its far too easy to defend against a ball coming 60 yards than it is one that is coming from 20-30 yards.

Its the ponderous nature of our build up which hurts us, it allows defence to regroup. In our system we need our half backs raiding at every opportunity, we need lads breaking lines so that defenders get committed and the over lap develops. If we don't get lads running off the ball then thats when the passing becomes lateral or backwards, where an intercept is often fatally dealt with. Armagh played us like a tiny fiddle last year this way.

Also as a team we clearly have players who are designated shooters, if these guys get shut out of the game then we are in major trouble. Guys in posession regularly get into great positions but are paralysed because its not their 'job' to shoot.

Tom Joad

Cavan scorers: Martin Reilly 0-6, Michael Argue 2-0, Jack Brady 0-4, Cian Mackey 0-3, Damien O'Reilly 0-1


Cavan Team: Conor Gilsenan, Killian Brady, Rory Dunne, Feraghal Flanagan, Niall Murray, James McEnroe, Ciaran Brady, Killian Clarke, Damien O'Reilly, Barry Reilly, Cian Mackey, Martin Reilly, Martin Dunne, Ronan Flanagan, Jack Brady.
Subs: Tomas Corr, Michael Lyng, Michael Argue, Paul Smith, Jason McLoughlin, Brendan Fitzpatrick, Christopher Conroy, Gearoid McKiernan.

Jampip

willabur wrote: »

When you are playing against the blanket defence the tactic least likely to work is the long ball in, it just doesn't bear fruit. Its far too easy to defend against a ball coming 60 yards than it is one that is coming from 20-30 yards.

Its the ponderous nature of our build up which hurts us, it allows defence to regroup. In our system we need our half backs raiding at every opportunity, we need lads breaking lines so that defenders get committed and the over lap develops. If we don't get lads running off the ball then thats when the passing becomes lateral or backwards, where an intercept is often fatally dealt with. Armagh played us like a tiny fiddle last year this way.

Also as a team we clearly have players who are designated shooters, if these guys get shut out of the game then we are in major trouble. Guys in posession regularly get into great positions but are paralysed because its not their 'job' to shoot.

I don't know if its fair to say lads are designated shoot. I think there are players who are afraid to shoot and this has been a problem going back years.

I've often seen Martin Reilly take an extra solo or run into trouble when he could have taken a shot a few steps previous for example.

I agree totally with what you're saying re players breaking at speed but its been our problem now since 2013 and I can't see it changing rapidly in a number of weeks. It's probably the one criticism I can land at Terry's feet that this has been a problem that simply hasn't been worked on.

I do believe that we have players who are good at carrying the ball and could fulfill this role.

Tom Joad

Jampip wrote: »

I agree totally with what you're saying re players breaking at speed but its been our problem now since 2013 and I can't see it changing rapidly in a number of weeks. It's probably the one criticism I can land at Terry's feet that this has been a problem that simply hasn't been worked on.

This is a real head scratcher as we have a few players that can break at speed and really hurt teams but we only do it very occassionally and if it was something we done more often we could get a lot of joy from it. In one of the league matches in Breffni, Dara McVetty had a 10 min spell where he kept running at defenders from midfield and it caused panic but then we didn't do it again during the match.

tayto lover

Who is refereeing this game lads?
I was talking to a Kingscourt man last week and he does not want Marty Duffy or Graham Reilly for sure.

rrs

Padraig Hughes from Crossmaglen, expect the 50/50 calls to go Monaghans way.

willabur

rrs wrote: »

Padraig Hughes from Crossmaglen, expect the 50/50 calls to go Monaghans way.

why?

rrs

I've seen him ref a few cavan games. Westmeath last year in the qualifiers. Down this year in the league and wasn't impressed. Maybe it was due to the tussle in the athletic grounds last year ..cavan v armagh

Crossmaglen close to monaghan border so he would know a few players that direction

willabur

rrs wrote: »

I've seen him ref a few cavan games. Westmeath last year in the qualifiers. Down this year in the league and wasn't impressed. Maybe it was due to the tussle in the athletic grounds last year ..cavan v armagh

Crossmaglen close to monaghan border so he would know a few players that direction

meh, I'd say the refs have been around the country so many times at this stage that they have all had equal opportunity to piss each and every country and their supporters off. Fact of the matter is that it is a very difficult sport to referee as so many situations/fouls can be interpreted both ways.

rrs

I think they should go for refs in outside Provinces for Ulster Championship games...

Castleblaney, Inniskeen, Clontibret, Doohamlet, are all 15 minutes or so from Crossmaglen. Not saying they are all pally with the South Armagh people, but would be familiar enough.

willabur

Your argument doesn't stack up I'm afraid. If anything a neighbouring ref is going to go against the local rival rather than go for them

the bigger issue with GAA referees is not to do with bias rather down to plain competency.