The Official Cavan GAA Discussion thread.

Lemlin

Redsoxfan wrote: »

Very fair assessments there willabur and Tom Joad. Enjoy the celebrations, not sure what I saw tonight will take ye much further, but woe betide anyone who takes ye for granted!

Some well wishes with a bit of a sting in the tail there. I see you and one of your compatriots have spoken about the "awful" first half over on the Donegal thread. Tbh I'm surprised that Donegal supporters wouldn't be used to defensive, tactical, low-scoring football by now.

It's a bit like Martin McHugh last year saying Cavsn won but Donegal would be happier because they had more players who would make the step up to senior, despite the fact that the Cavan team had already established seniors like Fergal Flanagan, Killian Clarke, Jason McLoughlin and Jack Brady in it.

We know we have alot of improvement to make for the semi. The fact is though that we played poorly and won. We also played without our captain and one of our most inspirational and creative players for 60 minutes of the game.

We've won an Ulster title beating Derry, Tyrone, Monaghan and Donegal. There were no easy games there.

Improvement needs to be made, particularly amongst our forwards, but we dragged ourselves over the line last night and will regroup now.

Tom Joad

Lemlin wrote: »

Some well wishes with a bit of a sting in the tail there. I see you and one of your compatriots have spoken about the "awful" first half over on the Donegal thread. Tbh I'm surprised that Donegal supporters wouldn't be used to defensive, tactical, low-scoring football by now.

Let's call a spade a spade here - it was awful - absolutely dire stuff in the first half. For 59 minutes we scored one goal from play and 3 points from frees. Both teams were forced across the pitch time and time again because the defences were so tightly marshalled and it didn't make for pretty viewing. Some of the Cavan shooting was abysmal - there's no point pretending otherwise and we really lack a guy who can score 5-6 points a game. Donegal in the first half constantly lost the ball in contact and turned into blind alleys and it was hard to watch but they really upped it in the second half and ran at Cavan with speed and created loads of overlaps.

The last 5 minutes were incredible from a Cavan perspective and it produced my best memories as a Cavan supporter (so far!) and I'm so proud of the lads and what they achieved which is based on hard work and honesty but let's not get precious about Donegal supporters saying it was awful - its was plain and simple a dreadful 59 minutes of football followed by an insane last 3-5 minutes!!

But like most Donegal supporters felt in 2012 if it produces success and all-ireland titles at the end of the day I couldn't give a flying fúck. And if we beat Dublin by 0-01 to 0-00 I'll be happy.

nice_guy80

How does playing defensively at U21 develop players? I would argue it ends up creating players who are pigeon holed into specific roles on the field.

Dublin have given their under 21s freedom to play the last few years and you can see how well they've made the step up to senior.

celt262

What it has done is got a winning mentality into them. For years Cavan would have lost tight games and come out of them happy enough.

That is as far as developing goes it has got them used to winning but I fear that top teams will make bits of this system like Kerry last year.

A fourth Ulster title is some achievement though and hopefully we can overcome hot favourites Dublin in semi.

Tom Joad

celt262 wrote: »

What it has done is got a winning mentality into them. For years Cavan would have lost tight games and come out of them happy enough.

That is as far as developing goes it has got them used to winning but I fear that top teams will make bits of this system like Kerry last year.

A fourth Ulster title is some achievement though and hopefully we can overcome hot favourites Dublin in semi.

Would agree with you on the first one but I would say that the system wasn't the problem against Kerry - it was too much respect for Kerry early on and an unusally cautious approach early on which cost us that day. When we went for it in the second half we looked a lot better.

What we are crying out for to take us to the next level is a top forward and unfortunately I don't see one coming through from this batch of under 21s or last years either.

nice_guy80

Tom Joad wrote: »

Would agree with you on the first one but I would say that the system wasn't the problem against Kerry - it was too much respect for Kerry early on and an unusally cautious approach early on which cost us that day. When we went for it in the second half we looked a lot better.

What we are crying out for to take us to the next level is a top forward and unfortunately I don't see one coming through from this batch of under 21s or last years either.

Defensive systems don't exactly promote free scoring forwards.

tayto lover

Tom Joad wrote: »

Would agree with you on the first one but I would say that the system wasn't the problem against Kerry - it was too much respect for Kerry early on and an unusally cautious approach early on which cost us that day. When we went for it in the second half we looked a lot better.

What we are crying out for to take us to the next level is a top forward and unfortunately I don't see one coming through from this batch of under 21s or last years either.

Is Nevin O'Donnell not in the Cavan squad? He is a very good score getter.

Redsoxfan

Lemlin wrote: »

Some well wishes with a bit of a sting in the tail there. I see you and one of your compatriots have spoken about the "awful" first half over on the Donegal thread. Tbh I'm surprised that Donegal supporters wouldn't be used to defensive, tactical, low-scoring football by now.

Take it whatever way you like. The first half was awful - I have no issue with defensive football, it was the basic execution of passing and kicking that bothered me. I reckoned things were about level at the half, as in our turnovers matched your wides. And these turnovers and wides weren't the product of good tackling and shooting under pressure, it was extremely sloppy stuff at times.

My opinion is that neither team looked like they had enough to go further than last night (I'd say exactly the same if Donegal had managed win). The fact is that no Ulster team has won an All Ireland at U-21 level since Armagh in 2004. We have the most competitive provinicial championship for sure, but it would be good to see an Ulster team go all the way sooner or later.

Tom Joad wrote:

But like most Donegal supporters felt in 2012 if it produces success and all-ireland titles at the end of the day I couldn't give a flying fúck. And if we beat Dublin by 0-01 to 0-00 I'll be happy.

Fully agree, and good luck to ye.

Tom Joad

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Defensive systems don't exactly promote free scoring forwards.

But if you look at why Donegal were so successful - they had Michael Murphy and other top quality forwards - Cavan are lacking players of that calibre at the minute - that's my point. It's not as if we didn't have the scoring chances last night - we did but failed to put them away.

There are two choices for teams like Cavan - go out and play nice football and get beat 9 times out of 10 or work with what you have and set up in a way that best suits the pool of players you have at your disposal - we went with Plan A for a long time and it failed miserably, Plan B is working out very well for us.

Tom Joad

tayto lover wrote: »

Is Nevin O'Donnell not in the Cavan squad? He is a very good score getter.

Was on the panel but didn't start or come on last night. Young Hayes from Cootehill came on last night and is a good player.

Lemlin

Redsoxfan wrote: »

Take it whatever way you like. The first half was awful - I have no issue with defensive football, it was the basic execution of passing and kicking that bothered me. I reckoned things were about level at the half, as in our turnovers matched your wides. And these turnovers and wides weren't the product of good tackling and shooting under pressure, it was extremely sloppy stuff at times.

My opinion is that neither team looked like they had enough to go further than last night (I'd say exactly the same if Donegal had managed win). The fact is that no Ulster team has won an All Ireland at U-21 level since Armagh in 2004. We have the most competitive provinicial championship for sure, but it would be good to see an Ulster team go all the way sooner or later.

Fully agree, and good luck to ye.

Ulster teams did win the minor All-Ireland title from 2008 to 2010 so the level is still high. Cavan the last three years have been close but we fully realise that isn't good enough.

I'm hoping that our lads will give the account of themselves that they are capable of giving in the semi final against Dublin.

We've 4 Ulsters now so it's time to push on and win the whole thing.

nice_guy80 wrote: »

How does playing defensively at U21 develop players? I would argue it ends up creating players who are pigeon holed into specific roles on the field.

Dublin have given their under 21s freedom to play the last few years and you can see how well they've made the step up to senior.

We wouldn't exactly have the pick Dublin have. There are more people living in Blanchardstown than there are in the entire county of Cavan.

Crash Bang Wall

Ive only seen Hayes play once or twice, but he looks to be a scoring forward. Himself and Ben Kiernan (at least I think thats his name) were the stand out players on last years Minor team.

Re the defensive tactics: If Cavan are lacking scoring forwards as many are saying (i havent seen the under 21s this year so cant comment on this aspect), then surely a management team have to pick a gameplan to suit the player available......getting the best out of the panel of players that you have available.

And in relation to the Seniors......I have been at a lot of their matches this year, I dont buy into Joe Brollys Black Death/defensive nonsense. The fact of the matter is that Cavan (IMO) have been ridiculously wasteful in front of goal. For instance, Martin Dunne missed 1-7 v Longford, and v Roscommon, Keating took 5 shots from play and put one over. Dunne missed a lot v Wexford as well. So if you improve the shooting/decision making, and Cavan win by 7/8 points instaed of 3/4 then surely thats not overly defensive.

The other thing Ive noticed is the pundits are constantly saying that defenders are afraid to tackle under the new rules. Well, Cavan have bucked that trend for me. The amount of turnovers in the half back line over the course of the League has been pretty high. Dont have the figures to hand, but just from watching games it has been a feature that stands out. Its obviously something they work on. I dont believe in really negative football.....you need some flair, but for me there has to be a balance, and any team should be based on a solid defence

tayto lover

Friends who were at the game last night are very critical of the referee as he allowed a lot of fouling especially on the Cavan forwards. Even with your Seniors they have been critical of the refereeing of their games.
Do any posters think that referees have it in for Cavan and their blanket defending?

Tom Joad

tayto lover wrote: »

Friends who were at the game last night are very critical of the referee as he allowed a lot of fouling especially on the Cavan forwards. Even with your Seniors they have been critical of the refereeing of their games.
Do any posters think that referees have it in for Cavan and their blanket defending?

No ref was just shíte to be honest but he was consistently shíte for both teams - he gave the decision to whoever shouted the loudest and make some truly bizarre calls expecially re fouling the ball/ overcarrying but he got the black card call right by the letter of the law. There was some big hits but 90% of them were fair hits and the other 10% were just poor execution of shoulders etc rather than malicous.

Gallant_JJ

tayto lover wrote: »

Is Nevin O'Donnell not in the Cavan squad? He is a very good score getter.

I was going to ask the same question, from what I have seen he can get scores, big man too. I do vaguely recall hearing he had been carrying a knock, but I wonder is that the reason he remains off the panel.

Lemlin

Gallant_JJ wrote: »

I was going to ask the same question, from what I have seen he can get scores, big man too. I do vaguely recall hearing he had been carrying a knock, but I wonder is that the reason he remains off the panel.

He was there last night in a tracksuit so I presume he's still carrying that knock.

tayto lover wrote: »

Friends who were at the game last night are very critical of the referee as he allowed a lot of fouling especially on the Cavan forwards. Even with your Seniors they have been critical of the refereeing of their games.
Do any posters think that referees have it in for Cavan and their blanket defending?

The standard of refereeing is atrocious anyway. When you see Joe McQuillan getting two All Ireland finals, you know the powers that be are stuck.

I do think pressure from the likes of Brolly and Spillane does seep through to referees. One thing I found in the league was that if anymore than two players, sometimes even just two, went to tackle a player, the referee would blow and give a free to that player. It led to some veyr stop start games and comments like Brolly's which the media picked up on can't have helped Cavan's case.

I think, as Colm O'Rourke recently wrote in an article, people need to realise that the game is evolving and just because teams take a defensive stance doesn't mean there isn't plenty of technical ability involved.

Tom Joad

Crash Bang Wall wrote: »

Ive only seen Hayes play once or twice, but he looks to be a scoring forward. Himself and Ben Kiernan (at least I think thats his name) were the stand out players on last years Minor team.

Re the defensive tactics: If Cavan are lacking scoring forwards as many are saying (i havent seen the under 21s this year so cant comment on this aspect), then surely a management team have to pick a gameplan to suit the player available......getting the best out of the panel of players that you have available.

And in relation to the Seniors......I have been at a lot of their matches this year, I dont buy into Joe Brollys Black Death/defensive nonsense. The fact of the matter is that Cavan (IMO) have been ridiculously wasteful in front of goal. For instance, Martin Dunne missed 1-7 v Longford, and v Roscommon, Keating took 5 shots from play and put one over. Dunne missed a lot v Wexford as well. So if you improve the shooting/decision making, and Cavan win by 7/8 points instaed of 3/4 then surely thats not overly defensive.

The other thing Ive noticed is the pundits are constantly saying that defenders are afraid to tackle under the new rules. Well, Cavan have bucked that trend for me. The amount of turnovers in the half back line over the course of the League has been pretty high. Dont have the figures to hand, but just from watching games it has been a feature that stands out. Its obviously something they work on. I dont believe in really negative football.....you need some flair, but for me there has to be a balance, and any team should be based on a solid defence

Good post and would agree with you in particular about the defensive system. A lot of it is media nonsense and lazy journalists just spouting crap. The reason Cavan are scoring less than other teams is more down to being wasteful/ taking points on at the wrong time etc rather than not getting the ball forward or taking shots on.

Defensively we are very sound and well set - same with midfield/ half forwards/ playmakers. We just are missing the last few pieces off the jigsaw in the forward line to take Cavan the next step..

Lemlin

Tom Joad wrote: »

Good post and would agree with you in particular about the defensive system. A lot of it is media nonsense and lazy journalists just spouting crap. The reason Cavan are scoring less than other teams is more down to being wasteful/ taking points on at the wrong time etc rather than not getting the ball forward or taking shots on.

Defensively we are very sound and well set - same with midfield/ half forwards/ playmakers. We just are missing the last few pieces off the jigsaw in the forward line to take Cavan the next step..

To be honest, I'd expect Keating to fill that void. He's one of the best forwards in the country on his day, shown by his recent dsplay for Ulster in the Railway Cup, but he's still too inconsistent at present.

I also have great hopes for Jack Brady. Alot of people expect him to be another play maker because he played that role with the U21s but we already have Mackey, Martin Reilly, McVeety, Lyng and others who can fill that void. I'd like to see Jack start in the full forward line and stay there. He's playing there for Ramor at senior since he was 16 or 17 and scoring regularly.

nice_guy80

At the of the day if you don't have quality forwards at senior level you'll never win anything.

Tom Joad

Lemlin wrote: »

To be honest, I'd expect Keating to fill that void. He's one of the best forwards in the country on his day, shown by his recent dsplay for Ulster in the Railway Cup, but he's still too inconsistent at present.

I also have great hopes for Jack Brady. Alot of people expect him to be another play maker because he played that role with the U21s but we already have Mackey, Martin Reilly, McVeety, Lyng and others who can fill that void. I'd like to see Jack start in the full forward line and stay there. He's playing there for Ramor at senior since he was 16 or 17 and scoring regularly.

Keating is a damn good player and hopefully will continue to develop his game - playing in the Dublin Championship will also improve him but he needs help. Martin Dunne is a very talented player but he can be easily nullified by better teams and if he doesn't get a score early on can fade badly out of games. Jack Brady/Givney are the two best options at the minute - would be nice if someone else came through from under 21s/minor to share the load or over that bit more in attack.

Lemlin

Tom Joad wrote: »

Keating is a damn good player and hopefully will continue to develop his game - playing in the Dublin Championship will also improve him but he needs help. Martin Dunne is a very talented player but he can be easily nullified by better teams and if he doesn't get a score early on can fade badly out of games. Jack Brady/Givney are the two best options at the minute - would be nice if someone else came through from under 21s/minor to share the load or over that bit more in attack.

I had high hopes for Tierney in terms of someone who would score goals but its not happening at the minute. That said, I think that may be due to our system.

In the games I've seen him in this year, he isn't getting to play in near the opposition's goal enough. Keating and Dunne are occupying that space and our system only allows for two forwards to do it.

willabur

Dessie Farrell was sitting in front of us last night, seemed to have a few lads there with him. Tapping away on his ipad it doesn't take a footballing genius to see that Cavan struggled big time when Donegal played a full pitch press on us. Playing into the wind we struggled to make ground into their half of the pitch. I would be amazed if Dublin don't employ something similar on Saturday week.

Credit to Peter Reilly in changing it up at the critical time. Rather than recycle the ball back to the lad dropping in behind possession he brought on subs that were adept at carrying the ball at speed. It was these forays up the field which ultimately turned the battle for us last night. Against the Dubs I would argue that our most important players will be our half back line, Moynagh was a huge loss last night as that is what he excels at, coming into the line and making yards with the ball. Its a roll that mackey played wonderfully well for us last summer.

Another issue from last night, especially in the second half was that we stood back too much off the breaking ball. I thought our midfield played well last night in this area of the game. What you need is your half backs, half forwards to time their run into the morass with serious intensity. Paul Galvin was the master of this art, the amount of times he got on dirty broken ball defied the laws of probabilty which more than suggest that he was canny operator that could read the breaks that much better than anyone. He also had the physique to deal with the stickiness of the work, two feet and quick hands to get the ball out to allied hands.

I think we would all agree that our most obvious failing is with our scoring threat. I don't just mean our forwards because the way we set up to play means that anyone bar our number 3 can find themselves crossing the 45 and bearing down on goal. I would be inclined to blame the system to a degree on this, the guys have clearly been thoroughly coached and coached very well but it looks as though they are leaving out the most important aspect of gaelic football (and any sport for that fact) which is taking the score.

Too often a lad looks as if he acts against the instinct to shoot and turns the ball back into play, back into the system with the hope of finding the elusive man in a better position. From my point of view it looks as if they are lacking confidence in taking their own score, there is a fear there causing those who do shoot to snatch at the ball. Any footballer good enough to make a panel of a multi-provincial winning team is well fit to kick the ball in a variety of different manners and techniques. Much like other sports the difference is when the pressure is on can they execute a technique they have done so many times before and could probably do with their eyes closed if they were in training or on their own. I'd hope that there is some effort taking place to try and address this as it looks as though it is the biggest impediment to further progression

celt262

I would agree on jack Brady he might put some pressure on Dunne now that he is fit again.

Anyone know of any good free takers we need a reliable one , we haven't had one who will be consistent in a while. Johnston the best we would have had lately. Won't progress without one of them in a tight game they can be the difference.

benjy1000

Great result last night, well done to all involved. Please god we can do they business in the A.I series now.

Just in relation to the seniors, I wonder could someone shed some light on where the following players are now? I remember them all playing with the 21's over the last few years and some even just last year playing with the seniors but I have not heard tell of them this year.

Perhaps they are on the extended panel but just not making the match day panel but I thought we would have seen some of them even on the bench against Limerick if this was the case but I did not so perhaps they are gone?

1. Barry Reilly
2. Barry Watters
3. Kevin Meehan
4. Conor McClarey
5. Michael Brady
6. Stephen Jordan
7. Brendan Fitzpatrick
8. Dara Tighe
9. Oisin O'Connell
10. Mark Leddy
11. Niall McKiernan
13. Patrick Carroll
14. Pauric Reilly


I know John McCutheon opted out this year and Oisin Minagh has gone abroad.

I havent been able to go to near as many matches as I would have liked this year so I am out of the loop a fair bit so I would be grateful if someone could help me out? Cheers

Lemlin

celt262 wrote: »

I would agree on jack Brady he might put some pressure on Dunne now that he is fit again.

Anyone know of any good free takers we need a reliable one , we haven't had one who will be consistent in a while. Johnston the best we would have had lately. Won't progress without one of them in a tight game they can be the difference.

I've seen Declan McKiernan suggested but you can't carry a player for the game just for his frees.

McDermott has been taking them well in the league. Jack Brady is also a good free taker.

cavan4sam

it seemed enda hessan made a big impact when he came on and seems to have the last few games

afaik he takes frees at club level and is quite good at them , bouchier seemed to be unreliable last night according to northern sound

i'm sure peter will have his homework done for the dubs , cork underestimated us last year and it almost cost them dearly ,

what a week in store for us , under 21 all ireland semi and a national league final

we have seen many a barren year in rainsoaked venues from malin to mizen but now hopefully the sun is about to shine on us

spoke to my dad after the game last night and he was quite emotional after nearly 70 years of going to cavan games he gets as much joy out of these lads than he got out of the class of 69 or 97 !!

celt262

I have seen cootehill play at least 5 times in the last two years and have never seen hessin take a free mccutheon and Mullen take them.

He did well last night and made a impact in the closing stages.

Lemlin

benjy1000 wrote: »

Great result last night, well done to all involved. Please god we can do they business in the A.I series now.

Just in relation to the seniors, I wonder could someone shed some light on where the following players are now? I remember them all playing with the 21's over the last few years and some even just last year playing with the seniors but I have not heard tell of them this year.

Perhaps they are on the extended panel but just not making the match day panel but I thought we would have seen some of them even on the bench against Limerick if this was the case but I did not so perhaps they are gone?

1. Barry Reilly
2. Barry Watters
3. Kevin Meehan
4. Conor McClarey
5. Michael Brady
6. Stephen Jordan
7. Brendan Fitzpatrick
8. Dara Tighe
9. Oisin O'Connell
10. Mark Leddy
11. Niall McKiernan
13. Patrick Carroll
14. Pauric Reilly


I know John McCutheon opted out this year and Oisin Minagh has gone abroad.

I havent been able to go to near as many matches as I would have liked this year so I am out of the loop a fair bit so I would be grateful if someone could help me out? Cheers

I think the bulk of those have been dropped from the panel. I can't confirm them all but certainly Barry Reilly, Barry Watters, Stephen Jordan and Niall McKiernan.

Brendan Bud Fitzpatrick is abroad AFAIK. Patrick Carroll was abroad but I think he's back now.

I'd expect some of those lads may feature in the junior team during the Summer.

celt262

I have seen cootehill play at least 5 times in the last two years and have never seen hessin take a free mccutheon and Mullen take them.

He did well last night and made a impact in the closing stages.

celt262

I have seen cootehill play at least 5 times in the last two years and have never seen hessin take a free mccutheon and Mullen take them.

He did well last night and made a impact in the closing stages.