The Official Cavan GAA Discussion thread.

willabur

celt262 wrote: »

Lemlin wrote: »

Top midfielders ? They haven't done anything to prove that. Gearoid has shown lots of potential before his injury,Argue may become one.

In fairness "Top Midfielders" is a fairly dramatic step. None of them have proved themselves TOP at anytime that I have seen them at championship level

Lemlin

celt262 wrote: »

Lemlin wrote: »

Yes they are good defenders.

Top midfielders ? They haven't done anything to prove that. Gearoid has shown lots of potential before his injury,Argue may become one.

As I said earlier we have not produced any forwards of Senior intercouny quality from out last 5 U-21 teams.

Yes, so that's at least four good defenders I've named. Earlier you described our team as a "couple" of good defenders?

I believe that Argue, McKiernan and even Givney can be top midfielders.

A number of the U21s have yet to make the step up to senior. Paul O'Connor and Enda O'Reilly will be given a chance soon I'd imagine. Kevin Tierney has been unfortunate with injuries.

Niall McDermott came from the U21s and is inconsistent but you'd have to hope that will end with more experience. Keating was involved with the 2010 panel but was put off the team for non footballing reasons. He;s inter county standard. As is Dunne who couldn't make the 2010 team.

When the system is refined, I believe we'll see how these lads can do. Jack Brady was poor on Saturday but it's not his fault he was too isolated.

What would your suggestion be for change anyway? It's a bit like people and their analysis of the economy. People can easily pick out the faults and failings of those in power but nobody can suggest alternatives.

Go back to 15 and 15 and go back to the days of beating nobody?

willabur wrote: »

celt262 wrote: »

In fairness "Top Midfielders" is a fairly dramatic step. None of them have proved themselves TOP at anytime that I have seen them at championship level

Perhaps I should have included the word "potentially" but I believe that we have three up and coming midfielders that would be the envy of a number of teams. I know from speaking to Armagh people last year that they were delighted when McKiernan missed the game.

Even soccer players say a tough injury like that needs a year to recover from fully and Gearoid needs that too. He's not a professional like they would be. Argue is still U21 next year iirc.

celt262

Lemlin wrote: »

celt262 wrote: »

Yes, so that's at least four good defenders I've named. Earlier you described our team as a "couple" of good defenders?

I cannot see where I said that can you please show me ?

I believe that Argue, McKiernan and even Givney can be top midfielders.

What have you seen in Givney that makes you think that?

A number of the U21s have yet to make the step up to senior. Paul O'Connor and Enda O'Reilly will be given a chance soon I'd imagine. Kevin Tierney has been unfortunate with injuries.

Why are they not there already, we don't have scoring forwards and from U-21's Paul O'Connor and Enda O'Reilly were the main scoring threats. It's not that we have a glut of talented forwards. Does Terry think that they are not good enough?

Niall McDermott came from the U21s and is inconsistent but you'd have to hope that will end with more experience. Keating was involved with the 2010 panel but was put off the team for non footballing reasons. He;s inter county standard. As is Dunne who couldn't make the 2010 team.

Dunne left the panel by his own accord in 2010. Niall McDermott has being around long enough and played enough games so I don't think that you can blame inexperience for him being inconsistent, maybe spending allot of the games around midfield and the half back line is affecting him

What would your suggestion be for change anyway? It's a bit like people and their analysis of the economy. People can easily pick out the faults and failings of those in power but nobody can suggest alternatives.

No 1. I would play a goal keeper who has a better kickout as currently they are not good enough and making it harder to win possession.

No 2. Stop this passing over and back across the field. There is no point in having 1 or two forwards in near the goals and 4 men marking them and kicking the odd hail mary ball in.

3. Move the ball quicker out of defence and put players in the team who can take on and beat a player.

4. Encourage players to shoot when they have a chance if we don't shoot we wont score.

That would be a start and I think it would improve things.

Lemlin

celt262 wrote: »

Lemlin wrote: »

celt262 wrote: »

I cannot see where I said that can you please show me ?

What have you seen in Givney that makes you think that?

Why are they not there already, we don't have scoring forwards and from U-21's Paul O'Connor and Enda O'Reilly were the main scoring threats. It's not that we have a glut of talented forwards. Does Terry think that they are not good enough?

Dunne left the panel by his own accord in 2010. Niall McDermott has being around long enough and played enough games so I don't think that you can blame inexperience for him being inconsistent, maybe spending allot of the games around midfield and the half back line is affecting him

No 1. I would play a goal keeper who has a better kickout as currently they are not good enough and making it harder to win possession.

No 2. Stop this passing over and back across the field. There is no point in having 1 or two forwards in near the goals and 4 men marking them and kicking the odd hail mary ball in.

3. Move the ball quicker out of defence and put players in the team who can take on and beat a player.

4. Encourage players to shoot when they have a chance if we don't shoot we wont score.

That would be a start and I think it would improve things.

You stated above:

celt262 wrote: »

I'm more annoyed with the style of football than anything else.
It may be negative in what i'm saying but I think that a lot of guys are brainwashed after wining 4 U'21 titles which is a great achievement but the forwards we are producing are not good enough for Senior inter county football. We have unearthed a couple of good defenders and the Jury is still out on the Midfield.

McEnroe, Dunne, Clarke and McLoughlin all came from the last four years. As did others like O'Reilly.

Givney was good enough to win a Sigerson at midfield for a star studded DIT team and play for Ulster at midfield in the Railway Cup. I also thought there was little wrong with his performances at midfield last year considering he spent most of the championship without a recognised midfielder beside him.

I can't answer why they aren't there already. I'm not Terry and I don't see these lads in training. I know though O'Connor hasn't stood out in recent junior games. Terry seems to have an approach where players prove themselves in junior and then make the step up and it has worked well so far.

Some system you have there. I suppose every county has an abundance of players who can take on and beat players. Why do you think Mackey is so highly rated outside of the county as well as inside it then?

I'd also point to our senior clubs again. Even teams like Roscommon and Antrim have club sides that are winning provincial and All Ireland club championships. Cavan's clubs can barely win a game in Ulster. Regarding shooting, that has been a problem for years. I remember saying here years ago that we should drop Seanie Johnston for league games. At least the other players might try to shoot rather than pass the ball round and round trying to get it to him.

There seems to be some opinion in certain quarters of the county that because we won a few Ulster U21s, not even an All Ireland, that we suddenly have a team of world beaters. We have a team of decent players but we still haven't a good enough team to play man to man 15 on 15 football. We were starting our young lads off on a far lower base than counties like Roscommon were.

The one thing we have now is a bit of pride in the jersey. Those lads will be hurt by that defeat. I was talking to a former county football this morning who told me in the late 00s it got that bad that the players used to bring bags with their change of clothes to the matches and had a bus booked to bring them to the pub after. They were going win, lose or draw. We're a long way from that crap now.

Boom__Boom

Tom Joad wrote: »

Ask on the Dublin forum how the junior championship has helped the Dublin senior team.

On this to jump in - been following the debate as its interesting to see how things are going in the "story" of Cavan football - I came across a stat on the Kerry website a few months back that someone posted about the Kerry juniors - Kerry used 29 players in the league this year and 9 of them had played with the Kerry juniors previously. When you look at the number of lads who would have been ineligible because of the clubs they played for in Kerry it's clear that it's a very valuable stepping stone in terms of developing players for the senior panel.

The nine were

Darren O'Sullivan
Anthony Maher
Stephen O’Brien
Shane Enright
Brian Maguire
Conor Cox
Jack Sherwood
Pa Kilkenny
Alan Fitzgerald

Some of them names might not be too familiar to those outside the county but 7 of them have already played Championship for Kerry and I wouldn't bet against the other 2 getting a chance at some stage.

Counties who don't take the junior seriously are definitely missing a trick imo.

celt262

Lemlin wrote: »

celt262 wrote: »

Lemlin wrote: »

You stated above:

I never said what you are saying that i did though, you made up a bit there to be fair


McEnroe, Dunne, Clarke and McLoughlin all came from the last four years. As did others like O'Reilly.

Givney was good enough to win a Sigerson at midfield for a star studded DIT team and play for Ulster at midfield in the Railway Cup.

Maybe his level is playing college football, the railway cup is no more than a glorified challenge game so i wouldn't go rating players on that.

I can't answer why they aren't there already. I'm not Terry and I don't see these lads in training. I know though O'Connor hasn't stood out in recent junior games. Terry seems to have an approach where players prove themselves in junior and then make the step up and it has worked well so far

I don't think any other county in the country would be doing that if players are good enough they shouldn't have to prove themselves in a mickey mouse completion.

Some system you have there. I suppose every county has an abundance of players who can take on and beat players. Why do you think Mackey is so highly rated outside of the county as well as inside it then?

It's not a system its called playing a bit of football. Do you actually believe that we don't have players who can take on and beat a man?

I remember saying here years ago that we should drop Seanie Johnston for league games. At least the other players might try to shoot rather than pass the ball round and round trying to get it to him.

Now that's some system, it's gone well since he left.

Lemlin

Boom__Boom wrote: »

On this to jump in - been following the debate as its interesting to see how things are going in the "story" of Cavan football QUOTE]

For me, the story of Cavan football is that we probably achieved too much too soon last year. This year management made it known that the emphasis was very much on Division 2 promotion which was achieved.

The team has suffered badly with injuries throughout the year and its time to regroup now and look at next year.

We have a system that very much needs to be tweaked and refined so that we are more competitive and score more.

Tom Joad

I'd go further than that Lemlin:

We have come from a county team that picked a manager because they were afraid he would withdraw sponsorship from the club championships if he didn't get a go. The team bus had to stop at Oxegen to pick up a few players for a qualifier a few years ago. Some senior players dropped into training when it suited them rather than attend sessions.

We've gone from that to:
4 in a row in Ulster at under 21 level. Overhauled the schools structure in such a way that St Pats are successful in Ulster colleges. Once the messing is over at minor level we will compete again at that level. An AI Quarter Final last year, two provincial titles at junior level and promotion (after going unbeaten) to Division 2. Another exciting bunch of under 21s next year too.

And some say Cavan football is at it lowest ebb :rolleyes::rolleyes: Some clown (I'm not making this up I swear) suggested to me at lunchtime that we get rid of Hyland and put a "proper manager with experience in place - the perfect man is already employed by the all conquering Cavan Gaels and would only be too happy to save us". :D

Lemlin

celt262 wrote: »

Lemlin wrote: »

celt262 wrote: »

I didn't make up anything. First off you tried to state things are as bad as ever which they clearly are not. You then tried to sum the past few years up as nothing more than unearthing a couple of good defenders. That was as ludicrous as your first point. I can name four good defenders without even thinking and you've since agreed.

You still have to make the squad for the Railway Cup. There was many a year when Cavan would barely have a sole representative. This year we had three or four involved and a couple of starters.

Posters above have already pointed out that the likes of Kerry and Dublin take junior football very seriously. Are those counties not good enough for you?

I believe football isn't as simple as you'd like to paint it but you've relied on sensationalism since this debate started. If we've such great players, how can you explain the poor performance of our club teams in the Ulster championship? The past few years our senior champions haven't even been beaten in Ulster, they've been hockeyed off the park.

You focus far too much on the negative and it's becoming clearer that you're one of Terry's token critics within the county who won't be happy with what he does no matter what. Sure maybe we should bring back Tommy Carr or Donal Keoghan or McElhannon. Sure we'd great success under all of those.

lycan238

Lemlin wrote: »

celt262 wrote: »

This system got us to our first ever All Ireland quarter final last year so I don't see how you can assert it "will get us nowhere fast". Did you also miss promotion to Division 2?

Followed this discussion since Saturday. We have indeed been to the final four of the All Ireland series (allbeit in 1997) and as some posters have said on here promotion to division 2 was a priority. I have followed Cavan GAA since the mid nineties and have to say that the last few years have been better than the previous few.

I just hope that next year the momentum that the team has hopefully will continue. Changing the manager and backroom team will not achieve this however the county board and clubs working together will achieve this. We need players who were missing on Saturday to get back to full fitness and maintain full fitness or near full fitness for next year as this shows that our strength in dept is not there.

I look forward to seeing the Division 2 teams in Cavan next spring and a positive championship draw later this year.

celt262

Lemlin wrote: »

celt262 wrote: »

Lemlin wrote: »

I didn't make up anything. First off you tried to state things are as bad as ever which they clearly are not. You then tried to sum the past few years up as nothing more than unearthing a couple of good defenders. That was as ludicrous as your first point. I can name four good defenders without even thinking and you've since agreed.

Yes we have a couple of good defenders.

You still have to make the squad for the Railway Cup. There was many a year when Cavan would barely have a sole representative. This year we had three or four involved and a couple of starters.

Aw here ok then he is a "top" midfielder because he played for ulster, do you remember he got carted off after 20 mins as he wasn't performing?


Posters above have already pointed out that the likes of Kerry and Dublin take junior football very seriously. Are those counties not good enough for you?

I believe football isn't as simple as you'd like to paint it but you've relied on sensationalism since this debate started. If we've such great players, how can you explain the poor performance of our teams in the Ulster championship?

Where have I said that we have great players?


You focus far too much on the negative and it's becoming clearer that you're one of Terry's token critics within the county who won't be happy with what he does no matter what. Sure maybe we should bring back Tommy Carr or Donal Keoghan or McElhannon. Sure we'd great success under all of those.

How can anyone praise management and not be negative with the muck that we have seen this summer? You may be happy with excuses but I guarantee you that at the next county board meeting there will be plenty who wont.


You need to wake up and see that all is not so hot and that some of the "Top" players that you think we have are "Top" players in your view and some people minds in this county and even outside it put in reality are not good enough.

Boom__Boom

Also I think Cavan need to try to forget the nature of the loss to Roscommon and move on.

Staying in Division 2 is the big mission for next year - 7 games against Division 2 teams will do far more for long-term development of players even if it is "only the league"

If Cavan hadn't got promoted for instance and Fermanagh had - Cavan football would be in a far bleaker place - facing into the league with games against - Armagh, Louth, Sligo, Wexford, Limerick, Tipperary, Clare as opposed to facing teams of the quality of Kildare, Westmeath, Meath, Down, Laois, Galway, and of course Roscommon. When you look at the overall level of difference in quality, Cavan is in a far better place than if they were still in Division 3.

There are 4 teams left in the Championship rom the 16 teams who played Division 3 and Division 4 football this year and it's fair to say all 4 have benefited from kind draws. The only game any of these 4 teams have won against Division 1 or Division 2 teams, is Tipperary's game at home versus Laois.

Basically if you want to be playing football into the end of July and onwards without it being the result of a handy draw you need to be playing Division 1 or Division 2 football.

baconsarnie

Tom Joad wrote: »

And some say Cavan football is at it lowest ebb :rolleyes::rolleyes: Some clown (I'm not making this up I swear) suggested to me at lunchtime that we get rid of Hyland and put a "proper manager with experience in place - the perfect man is already employed by the all conquering Cavan Gaels and would only be too happy to save us". :D

For the love of God. That has to be a wind up.

If people are complaining about Cavan being negative, can anyone advocate for Canavan? Based on Fermanagh's performances?

Lemlin

celt262 wrote: »

Lemlin wrote: »

celt262 wrote: »

How can anyone praise management and not be negative with the muck that we have seen this summer? You may be happy with excuses but I guarantee you that at the next county board meeting there will be plenty who wont.


You need to wake up and see that all is not so hot and that some of the "Top" players that you think we have are "Top" players in your view and some people minds in this county and even outside it put in reality are not good enough.

I'm sure they won't but the county board and the like are the same lot who replaced manager after manager when the players were the problem.

I can praise management because we got to a McKenna Cup final and were promoted to Division 2 this year. I can praise management because we got to our first ever All Ireland quarter final last year. I can praise management because we used 46 players in the league this year and are in an All Ireland junior semi final.

Given that for a seven year period before last year we hadn't beaten a team in the championship outside of Division 4, I think that is quite a rapid turnaround.

Perhaps you could take your head out of the sand and realise alot of positive steps have been made. You're too busy focusing on attacking Terry Hyland and being negative though to do that. You must be very forgetful though if you think the past couple of years under Terry are as "bad as it ever was". I don't see one poster out of all who have posted backing you up.

Maybe you could stop ignoring my questions too. How come our club teams perform so badly in Ulster when you seem to feel we have the players to go out and compete man-to-man with the best teams that there is?

baconsarnie

celt262 wrote: »

Lemlin wrote: »

celt262 wrote: »

You need to wake up and see that all is not so hot and that some of the "Top" players that you think we have are "Top" players in your view and some people minds in this county and even outside it put in reality are not good enough.

I'm not sure what way to read this, but are you saying players that some people rate aren't any good?

If, after arguing at length that it is tactics & poor management that has us at this "new low" you are in fact suggesting that we don't have the players, then what can you do? Who is to blame?

Either you think the players are there and are being shackled by management or you think that there is no talent there- in which case, why constantly advocate for a change at the top? What will that bring about?

And if it is the latter, what's the point in getting angry? I remember in the early part of 2000s going to games and seeing that clearly not only was the talent not there, but that the players cared less about the games than we did. That was worth getting angry about- not when lads are putting in 100% effort and, this championship aside, giving us something to cheer about

And, yes, it has not been amazing to watch- but it gives us a platform. I remember talking to a mate from Donegal years ago. He cared less for begrudgers for their style of play. He said he had seen enough of Donegal losing while playing asthetically pleasing football- winning does matter.

Lemlin

baconsarnie wrote: »

celt262 wrote: »

Lemlin wrote: »

I'm not sure what way to read this, but are you saying players that some people rate aren't any good?

If, after arguing at length that it is tactics & poor management that has us at this "new low" you are in fact suggesting that we don't have the players, then what can you do? Who is to blame?

Either you think the players are there and are being shackled by management or you think that there is no talent there- in which case, why constantly advocate for a change at the top? What will that bring about?

And if it is the latter, what's the point in getting angry? I remember in the early part of 2000s going to games and seeing that clearly not only was the talent not there, but that the players cared less about the games than we did. That was worth getting angry about- not when lads are putting in 100% effort and, this championship aside, giving us something to cheer about

And, yes, it has not been amazing to watch- but it gives us a platform. I remember talking to a mate from Donegal years ago. He cared less for begrudgers for their style of play. He said he had seen enough of Donegal losing while playing asthetically pleasing football- winning does matter.

That is also my point to Celt262. He is complaining about the manager. In one post he is saying that we have players who can take scores and go around others if not "shackled" by management yet he is then coming back saying that the talent isn't there on the other hand.

I think what's wrong with Celt, and I alluded to it earlier, is that he is part of the "old brigade", a brigade that aren't fond of Terry Hyland because Terry doesn't play up to their politics. He went in there to do a job and he doesn't care whose feathers he is going to ruffle along the way.

Celt and the lads of the county board would prefer a "yes man" instead who will do what he is told.

Boom__Boom

Tom Joad wrote: »

I'd go further than that Lemlin:

We have come from a county team that picked a manager because they were afraid he would withdraw sponsorship from the club championships if he didn't get a go. The team bus had to stop at Oxegen to pick up a few players for a qualifier a few years ago. Some senior players dropped into training when it suited them rather than attend sessions.

We've gone from that to:
4 in a row in Ulster at under 21 level. Overhauled the schools structure in such a way that St Pats are successful in Ulster colleges. Once the messing is over at minor level we will compete again at that level. An AI Quarter Final last year, two provincial titles at junior level and promotion (after going unbeaten) to Division 2. Another exciting bunch of under 21s next year too.

And some say Cavan football is at it lowest ebb :rolleyes::rolleyes: Some clown (I'm not making this up I swear) suggested to me at lunchtime that we get rid of Hyland and put a "proper manager with experience in place - the perfect man is already employed by the all conquering Cavan Gaels and would only be too happy to save us". :D

Well worth reminding folk giving out where Cavan have come from - people also need to remember well that U21 success does not mean senior success will follow automatically.

If people want a reminder of how relevant U21 success is they can look at the Cork v Kerry game from last weekend and the Munster U21 final Cork won in 2011. In 2011 it was Cork 2-24 Kerry 0-08 in that game and from that night Walsh, Clancy, Cahalane, O'Rourke and O'Driscoll started for Cork at the weekend while for Kerry O'Donoghue, O'Brien, Geaney and Kelly started. There was a couple more subs on both sides.

Last weekend Kerry 0-24 Cork 0-12 with 0-14 from 3 of the lads who started that U21 Munster final for Kerry.

Lemlin

Boom__Boom wrote: »

Well worth reminding folk giving out where Cavan have come from - people also need to remember well that U21 success does not mean senior success will follow automatically.

If people want a reminder of how relevant U21 success is they can look at the Cork v Kerry game from last weekend and the Munster U21 final Cork won in 2011. In 2011 it was Cork 2-24 Kerry 0-08 in that game and from that night Walsh, Clancy, Cahalane, O'Rourke and O'Driscoll started for Cork at the weekend while for Kerry O'Donoghue, O'Brien, Geaney and Kelly started. There was a couple more subs on both sides.

Last weekend Kerry 0-24 Cork 0-12 with 0-14 from 3 of the lads who started that U21 Munster final for Kerry.

Exactly. And people only need to look at Galway. The actually won two U21 All Irelands, comprehensively beating us in the final of one.

Their U21s were also becoming part of a far more talented and successful senior team than ours yet success has not automatically followed.

Boom__Boom

Lemlin wrote: »

Exactly. And people only need to look at Galway. The actually won two U21 All Irelands, comprehensively beating us in the final of one.

Their U21s were also becoming part of a far more talented and successful senior team than ours yet success has not automatically followed.

It's one of my pet peeves with GAA folk - don't get me started on the whole "we won a minor All-Ireland therefore we will pick up Sam/Liam in five years" taking no account of how nerves/who performs on the day is absolutely massive at that age level, or getting the break of a ball,or a lucky draw or getting the right decisions from a referee at the right time,or the fact that some of the lads won't develop on to seniors or will pick up injuries.

Cavan have a good base with their Ulster U21 wins but at senior level those medals and cups means zilch, players have to go out and win their battles all over again - and more likely than not against lads looking for revenge for being beaten before.

celt262

baconsarnie wrote: »

celt262 wrote: »

Lemlin wrote: »

I'm not sure what way to read this, but are you saying players that some people rate aren't any good?

Yes certain players are not up to standard.

If, after arguing at length that it is tactics & poor management that has us at this "new low" you are in fact suggesting that we don't have the players, then what can you do? Who is to blame?

I'm saying that some players are over rated. Some players are not given a chance. Who do you blame for the mess we have seen this summer?

Either you think the players are there and are being shackled by management or you think that there is no talent there- in which case, why constantly advocate for a change at the top? What will that bring about?

Where have I constantly looked for a change at the top?



And, yes, it has not been amazing to watch- but it gives us a platform. I remember talking to a mate from Donegal years ago. He cared less for begrudgers for their style of play. He said he had seen enough of Donegal losing while playing asthetically pleasing football- winning does matter.

Winning matters but losing to Roscommon like that also matters.

Lemlin

Why don't you name the players you don't rate? I don't see the problem with doing it. You've no problem spelling out your problem with David Givney or Conor Gilsenen, why shield others?

What players do you feel are not being given a chance? There's no point in one sentence responses. Put a bit of detail into your point.

Who do I blame? I don't blame the management that's for sure. I think the championship has been a disaster but our most important goal, promotion to Division 2, was achieved. We also reached a McKenna Cup final. We've also tried out 46 players in the league so very few can say they didn't get a chance.

I'm not sure what you can blame losing seven or eight key players from differing reasons on. I have made the point that players need to be given time to recuperate though. Not just by county management but clubs also. I was told this morning that Mackey needs at least three months off from football. Will Castlerahan allow him that?

In terms of looking for a change at the top, it certainly appears to both others and I to be the angle you are aiming at. Why else would you constantly be blaming management for the poor performances?

Could you also please stop replying within the quotes and just reply underneath. Its very hard to notice some of your responses when they are inbedded in the middle of other responses.

Syferus

Boom__Boom wrote: »

It's one of my pet peeves with GAA folk - don't get me started on the whole "we won a minor All-Ireland therefore we will pick up Sam/Liam in five years" taking no account of how nerves/who performs on the day is absolutely massive at that age level, or getting the break of a ball,or a lucky draw or getting the right decisions from a referee at the right time,or the fact that some of the lads won't develop on to seniors or will pick up injuries.

Cavan have a good base with their Ulster U21 wins but at senior level those medals and cups means zilch, players have to go out and win their battles all over again - and more likely than not against lads looking for revenge for being beaten before.

I can't recall a single person who has ever said that.

Tom Joad

Boom__Boom wrote: »

It's one of my pet peeves with GAA folk - don't get me started on the whole "we won a minor All-Ireland therefore we will pick up Sam/Liam in five years" taking no account of how nerves/who performs on the day is absolutely massive at that age level, or getting the break of a ball,or a lucky draw or getting the right decisions from a referee at the right time,or the fact that some of the lads won't develop on to seniors or will pick up injuries.

Cavan have a good base with their Ulster U21 wins but at senior level those medals and cups means zilch, players have to go out and win their battles all over again - and more likely than not against lads looking for revenge for being beaten before.

I agree with you but what success at underage level gives you is more confidence and also a winning mentality. Martin McHugh often spoke about how Cavan were a nice team and quite happy to put in a decent display but had no ruthlessness needed to win - Kildare in newbridge a few years ago is a case in point.

The difference with the young lads coming through is that they expect to win nearly against Tyrone and Donegal and the likes - they have left the nice soft team or inferiority complex that existed in Cavan football for too long behind them.

Alan Clarke has often spoken about last year about the young lads with pockets full of medals putting it up to the senior lads and the hunger they had for more success.

tayto lover

Tom Joad wrote: »

I agree with you but what success at underage level gives you is more confidence and also a winning mentality. Martin McHugh often spoke about how Cavan were a nice team and quite happy to put in a decent display but had no ruthlessness needed to win - Kildare in newbridge a few years ago is a case in point.

The difference with the young lads coming through is that they expect to win nearly against Tyrone and Donegal and the likes - they have left the nice soft team or inferiority complex that existed in Cavan football for too long behind them.

Alan Clarke has often spoken about last year about the young lads with pockets full of medals putting it up to the senior lads and the hunger they had for more success.

That is a rarity in fairness.
What have the successful Galway U 21's won since their All Ireland ?
Underage success does not necessarily guarantee senior success.

Tom Joad

tayto lover wrote: »

That is a rarity in fairness.
What have the successful Galway U 21's won since their All Ireland ?
Underage success does not necessarily guarantee senior success.

Am not saying it does to be fair - am agreeing with previous poster on that point. What I am saying is that when you are used to getting beaten well by all comers at all levels like Cavan were it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy - manys the time Cavan were beaten before they took the field. Now Cavan teams at underage level have a bit of belief and swagger about them - they don't know when they are beat. Take this years Ulster final as a case in point - they were dead and buried going into stoppage time but still won. For a county as low as Cavan were this has made a big change to the senior level already.

Underage success is no guarantee but when you have 4 in a row at under 21 it gives something to build on.

tayto lover

Tom Joad wrote: »

Am not saying it does to be fair - am agreeing with previous poster on that point. What I am saying is that when you are used to getting beaten well by all comers at all levels like Cavan were it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy - manys the time Cavan were beaten before they took the field. Now Cavan teams at underage level have a bit of belief and swagger about them - they don't know when they are beat. Take this years Ulster final as a case in point - they were dead and buried going into stoppage time but still won. For a county as low as Cavan were this has made a big change to the senior level already.

Underage success is no guarantee but when you have 4 in a row at under 21 it gives something to build on.

OK I can see that it could give confidence.
What seems to be wrong in Cavan is that they don't seem to have a plan B for occasions when things are not going to the original plan i.e. this year's C/ship games. The system is too one-dimensional and not good to watch.

Tom Joad

tayto lover wrote: »

OK I can see that it could give confidence.
What seems to be wrong in Cavan is that they don't seem to have a plan B for occasions when things are not going to the original plan i.e. this year's C/ship games. The system is too one-dimensional and not good to watch.

Agree with you that a plan B is needed and the system does need to be tweaked.

To be honest I couldn't give a crap if its like watching paint dry if it brings us success and most people in any county feel the same if they are being honest. - Ask Donegal people

Lemlin

I don't really see the point of why you have pulled posts from other message boards. We can't see the full conversations so they may be pulled out of context tbh.

Any chance you could answer my post to you above. You put more effort into pulling as many negative opinions as you could from other forums rather than actually giving any decent replies to the debate here.

From earlier:


Why don't you name the players you don't rate? I don't see the problem with doing it. You've no problem spelling out your problem with David Givney or Conor Gilsenen, why shield others?

What players do you feel are not being given a chance? There's no point in one sentence responses. Put a bit of detail into your point.

Who do I blame? I don't blame the management that's for sure. I think the championship has been a disaster but our most important goal, promotion to Division 2, was achieved. We also reached a McKenna Cup final. We've also tried out 46 players in the league so very few can say they didn't get a chance.

I'm not sure what you can blame losing seven or eight key players from differing reasons on. I have made the point that players need to be given time to recuperate though. Not just by county management but clubs also. I was told this morning that Mackey needs at least three months off from football. Will Castlerahan allow him that?

In terms of looking for a change at the top, it certainly appears to both others and I to be the angle you are aiming at. Why else would you constantly be blaming management for the poor performances?

Could you also please stop replying within the quotes and just reply underneath. Its very hard to notice some of your responses when they are inbedded in the middle of other responses.

celt262

I'm not wasting any more time going around in circles with one of Terry Hylands fan boys.

celt262

Less of the private messages please.