Energy Saving Wizard

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Spent a considerable time last night filling in all the details on this. It was a bit confusing as it gave no choices for the likes of dual heating systems ot internal wall insulation but never mind it still seemed a good exercise. Until....

I get to the final report and I'm anxious to see what I can do to save energy in my particular circumstances and what do I get??

Defrost the freezer every 6 months - Didn't even ask if I had a freezer or if I de-frosted it already

Only put the dishwasher on when full - Didn't ask if I had one and anyway we do only put it on when full.

Only boil the amount of water you need - Daah! We do that already; not that you asked!

Turn off the heating a hour before going to bed.- The survey did not ask anything about our timimg of the heating system!

Not one thing specific to my situation. Why ask all those questions about my house (insulation details, size of rooms etc) and then just list the same old energy saving points that I already follow?

Total waste of time!!

Electric Ireland: David

Hi Wyatt Itchy Trigonometry,

Thanks for taking the time to complete the survey. We're sorry to hear however that it didn't provide the feedback you were hoping for.

Wyatt Itchy Trigonometry wrote:

... Didn't even ask if I had a freezer or if I de-frosted it already... Only put the dishwasher on when full - Didn't ask if I had one and anyway we do only put it on when full... Only boil the amount of water you need - Daah! We do that already; not that you asked!... The survey did not ask anything about our timimg of the heating system!

The tips that you have highlighted above all fall into the ‘Actions you can take for free’ section. They would be standard rather than tailored to each report. We felt that it was really important to include actions people can take for free, as we’re very aware that in the current economic climate, customers may not have the capital to spend on energy efficiency upgrades.

In your case, if you have already completed many of our recommendations, you would have received our ‘Actions you can take for free’ and information on ‘Alternative ways to improve your energy efficiency,’ which includes information on Solar Thermal, Solar PV and Air Source Heat Pumps, as well as the overall summary of your energy performance and carbon emissions.

Wyatt Itchy Trigonometry wrote:

Spent a considerable time last night filling in all the details on this...

We can see that it takes the average user between 12 and 15 minutes to complete the survey, so we have tried to limit the number of questions asked, in order to make it as easy as possible for customers to complete their report.

We felt that if we were to ask about freezers, dishwashers and kettles etc we’d go way over the 15 minute mark, and we wouldn’t be able to capture the essential info we need to get in order to make the recommendations that the vast majority of our users receive, so it’s a balancing act in that respect.

Wyatt Itchy Trigonometry wrote:

Why ask all those questions about my house (insulation details, size of rooms etc) and then just list the same old energy saving points that I already follow?

During 2009/2010 we conducted over 20,000 home energy efficiency surveys, and our experience of the customers we met, and the houses we surveyed, has lead to the development of the Energy Saving Wizard. We found that, while a lot of our customers are very well informed on energy efficiency, and have made huge improvements to their homes, other customers aren’t sure where to start, and the wizard was developed with these customers in mind.

Thanks for your feedback Wyatt Itchy Trigonometry - it has been passed directly on to the Energy Wizard team, and we hope to implement improvements in whatever ways we can.

Regards,

David.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Thanks David. I'm still smarting though over the fact that there was not a single action directed to me personally as a result of completeing the survey. My rating was only average and I know things that we could do. I expected them to come through but, honestly, the "for free" items were similar to what my wife teaches her 3rd class primary kids for their green flags.

As for jumping from not boiling a full kettle to solar panels... I'll not even go there.

It is what it is but I feel you have overstated what that is in your leafet with this months bills.

KM88

Wyatt Itchy Trigonometry wrote: »

Thanks David. I'm still smarting though over the fact that there was not a single action directed to me personally as a result of completeing the survey.
...
It is what it is but I feel you have overstated what that is in your leafet with this months bills.

You're not alone Wyatt Itchy Trigonometry. Been there, done that with the same result and same feeling of being patronised.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

That's it exactly. It was patronising. I showed it to two other couples yesterday and today and after they finished laughed at the resulting "report" they said it was a rip off.

Electric Ireland, this is bad PR. Think it through please.

Electric Ireland: David

Hi Srameen/KM88,

For illustrative purposes, a user who has not taken too many measures in improving their own energy efficiency would receive something similar to the following report:

For customers who have advanced beyond this stage, the uses of the Energy Wizard will be less apparent, as there will be less recommendations. Patronizing already energy-conscious users is very far from what we have in mind, and are sorry to hear that you feel this way.

We are taking all feedback on board and are currently working to improve the Wizard accordingly.

Thanks,

David.

KM88

ESB CS: David wrote: »

Hi Srameen/KM88,

Patronizing already energy-conscious users is very far from what we have in mind, and are sorry to hear that you feel this way.

We are taking all feedback on board and are currently working to improve the Wizard accordingly.

Thanks,

David.

Thanks for that David and of course I understand you are not trying to patronise anyone. I also understand that your main focus is the "low-hanging fruit" - people who can make very significant savings for low cost.

All of that is fine and laudable, but there is also a large, and growing daily, cohort of consumers who have done the obvious measures and are wracking their brains to find other ways to further reduce their energy costs and carbon footprint and this cohort seems to get very little help from our supplier.

I already have the attic insulation, cavity wall insulation, cylinder jacket, TRVs, mainly A rated appliances, lowered stat, most windows double glazed, draught proofing, etc.

I'm now trying to decide whether switching to a night-saver tariff would be worthwhile - hence my interest in the "Energy Monitor" thread.

Even the sample report you linked to makes no mention of this possibility which, incidentally, could benefit both the supplier and the consumer.

I'm frustrated that the brand I trust (as acknowledged world experts in electricity supply) are offering me dumbed-down generic advice like:
- "turn down the thermostat"
- "insulate the attic"
- "fit a lagging jacket"
- etc

And if I've already done those things the advice is along the lines of:
- "buy an 'A' rated dishwasher/freezer/dryer"
- "defrost the freezer regularly"
- "don't boil a full kettle"
- "consider solar PV panels"

Where is the advice to:
- use an energy monitor to determne whether a night-saver tariff might be more economical
- hang your expensive-to-dry items like towels, duvets, etc on the clothesline rather than tumbledry them
- and if you don't have a clothesline and have space for one - for God's sake buy one!
- quit drying your clothes by draping them on radiators and running a dehumidifier to solve the condensation problems
- etc

... you get the idea - I want help with the less obvious, incremental improvements/savings I can make. The wizard asks enough questions to distinguish me from others but doesn't offer me the less obvious suggestions that even I can think of.

By all means, cater for the lowest common denominator, but please don't ignore (or give the appearance of patronising ) the rest of us.

Thanks.

PS. I'm available to suggest how the web tools could be improved if your web team are interested in some real-life user feedback. I have some experience in this area, but times are tough - which is what brought me here in the first place.

Electric Ireland: David

Hi KM88,

Thanks for that reply.

KM88 wrote:

...Where is the advice to:
- use an energy monitor to determne whether a night-saver tariff might be more economical
- hang your expensive-to-dry items like towels, duvets, etc on the clothesline rather than tumbledry them
- and if you don't have a clothesline and have space for one - for God's sake buy one!
- quit drying your clothes by draping them on radiators and running a dehumidifier to solve the condensation problems
- etc

... you get the idea - I want help with the less obvious, incremental improvements/savings I can make...

This is very valuable feedback KM88, and we will do what we can to incorporate it directly into the further development and improvement of the Wizard.

KM88 wrote:

I'm now trying to decide whether switching to a night-saver tariff would be worthwhile - hence my interest in the "Energy Monitor" thread.

A typical Urban or Rural customer using 5,300kWh per year would need to use a minimum of 3 units by night (i.e. between 11pm and 8am in wintertime, or 12am and 9am in summertime) to benefit from the Nightsaver tariff.

If you read your meter before going to bed and again in the morning (or preferably, at the aforementioned times), and do this for a few days consecutively (satisfying yourself that the recording readings are reflective of your average usage patterns); if you do this and find that you tend to clock up a minimum of 3 units per night, then we would recommend you go ahead with the change of tariff.

Further information on the Nightsaver can be found at the pricing section on our website (or you can just click here).

I hope the above information helps you decide.

KM88 wrote:

PS. I'm available to suggest how the web tools could be improved if your web team are interested in some real-life user feedback.

Absolutely. PM me your details and I'll have them sent on to the relevant section.

All the best,

David.

KM88

Electric Ireland: David wrote: »

A typical Urban or Rural customer using 5,300kWh per year would need to use a minimum of 3 units by night (i.e. between 11pm and 8am in wintertime, or 12am and 9am in summertime) to benefit from the Nightsaver tariff.

If you read your meter before going to bed and again in the morning (or preferably, at the aforementioned times), and do this for a few days consecutively (satisfying yourself that the recording readings are reflective of your average usage patterns); if you do this and find that you tend to clock up a minimum of 3 units per night, then we would recommend you go ahead with the change of tariff.

Thanks for that useful tip David.

I tried it but after a few days, couldn't muster the discipline to go outside at midnight and 8am to note the readings. But I did buy one of these and I now have some data which prompts another question.

You say that I would need "to clock up a minimum of 3 units per night" to benefit from Nightsaver. I now know that, on average, I'm using 6 units at night. But surely the Standard vs Nightsaver equation depends on night units versus total units and not just night usage - given that my daytime units will cost more if I opt for nightsaver.

The ESB site (and some of your messages) talks about "switching" units to nighttime. Does that mean that I would need to shift 3 units of current daytime usage to nighttime in order to benefit? I don't understand why changing my usage pattern is an issue at all - surely what matters is how much I use in daytime hours and in nightime hours and it has nothing to do with "switching" consumption from one to the other.

Or am I still misunderstanding something?

Electric Ireland: David

Hi KM88,

Sorry for any delay in getting back to you.

When I spoke about switching units from day to night usage, I meant it in the broad sense that a customer who is currently on a dual tariff, and isn't using any night units at all (while averaging, say, 10 units per day overall, all chargeable at the day rate) would clearly benefit from "switching" some of these units to the night rate.

Apologies for the imprecise lingo; in your case, what I said earlier should still apply: a typical urban or rural customer using 5,300kWh per year (i.e. combining day and night) would need to use a minimum of 3 units by night (i.e. between 11pm and 8am in wintertime, or 12am and 9am in summertime) to benefit from the Nightsaver tariff.

Would you prefer to continue this over PM? I'm just conscious of enquiring about your average total daily consumption on a public forum.

Thanks,

David.

KM88

Electric Ireland: David wrote: »

Would you prefer to continue this over PM? I'm just conscious of enquiring about your average total daily consumption on a public forum.

Thanks David.
I suspect many others also have trouble working this out so I'm happy to continue here for now.

4 bed bugalow, Urban tariff, 5 occupants, oil heating, dishwasher, washing machine, tumble dryer, electric cooking, 1 electric shower and 1 shower from cylinder heated by CH boiler but topped up by immersion.

My figures so far, compiled over 9 days, show that I use 23 units per day including 6.5 nighttime.

I think a great addition to the ESB website would be either an online calculator or downloadable spreadsheet for consumers to enter their usage over a period to determine whether they would benefit from the NS tariff.

Until I did this exercise, I would have assumed I was an "average" user and therefore, the threshold would be about 3 units in nightime hours. Unless I've made a mistake, my threshold seems to be much higher (including the standing charge) - just to break even.

Do your calculations agree?

Electric Ireland: David

KM88 wrote:

My figures so far, compiled over 9 days, show that I use 23 units per day including 6.5 nighttime.

Nice work. Assuming those figures remain relatively consistent over time, you should make a saving if you change tariff to the Nightsaver.

I worked out a hypothetical bill for you based on the information you've provided, and calculated a reduction in your bi-monthly bill of 5%. Modest perhaps, but still worth considering.

KM88 wrote:

I think a great addition to the ESB website would be either an online calculator or downloadable spreadsheet for consumers to enter their usage over a period to determine whether they would benefit from the NS tariff.

Again, great suggestion. Hopefully by improving our own Appliance Calculator we can integrate such functionality.

Thanks,

David.

KM88

Electric Ireland: David wrote: »

I worked out a hypothetical bill for you based on the information you've provided, and calculated a reduction in your bi-monthly bill of 5%. Modest perhaps, but still worth considering.

Thanks David.

My own calculations suggest something less than 4% saving from changing to NS tariff with no change in usage pattern.

I could make the saving more worthwhile by making the teenagers stop playing video games and go to bed earlier, get up earlier to have their showers at night rate, or telling my domestic engineer that she needs to stay up past midnight to put on the dishwasher, the washing-machine, the tumble dryer and to do the ironing - but I don't really fancy any of those battles. :eek:

But if I did that, at whatever cost to family harmony, I guess I could "shift" another 2 units onto the night rate, increasing the saving to 4.6% (say 30c/day for me or 20c/day for the "average" user). That's still far short of being enough to warrant the risk to life, limb and family harmony.

All of which prompts me to wonder, is ESB serious about incentivising ordinary domestic users to reduce Daytime usage in favour of Nighttime usage (storage heating aside, which I understand is a different tariff again)? Or is the NS sheme just paying lipservice to demand-smoothing?

Can you tell us what proportion of Domestic Urban users (excluding those on a storage heating tariff) are on the Nightsaver tariff? My guess is it won't be more than 1%.

Electric Ireland: David

KM88 wrote:

...is ESB serious about incentivising ordinary domestic users to reduce Daytime usage in favour of Nighttime usage (storage heating aside, which I understand is a different tariff again)?

It's a good question. Yes, we are determined to encourage an overall demand-smoothing, as you put it. This is the rationale behind the Nightsaver.

When customers have night storage heating installed, it wouldn't necessarily be obvious at our end. Unless, as you say, they have a specific meter - the night storage heating meter - which can only cater for night storage heating. The Nightsaver, on the other hand, can cater for all usage, irrespective of the source.

The confusion arises because many, if not the majority, of customers who have a Nightsaver meter actually do have night storage heating installed. This is very common in apartment blocks, for instance. Customers with such a tariff arrangement most certainly benefit significantly from the reduced rates on offer. IMO, having storage heaters wouldn't be at all viable without the Nightsaver.

KM88 wrote:

Can you tell us what proportion of Domestic Urban users (excluding those on a storage heating tariff) are on the Nightsaver tariff?

I'll see if I can get more info on this for you.

KM88 wrote:

I could make the saving more worthwhile by making the teenagers stop playing video games and go to bed earlier, get up earlier to have their showers at night rate, or telling my domestic engineer that she needs to stay up past midnight to put on the dishwasher, the washing-machine, the tumble dryer and to do the ironing - but I don't really fancy any of those battles. :eek:

Tread carefully...

Thanks again,

David.

KM88

Thanks David.
Interesting info there.

I can certainly see how storage heating would swing the balance in favour of NS.

ted1

few things ith epdf stand right out

Solar technology
Solar thermal
It's free, it's clean and it's everywhere! Energy from the sun is kind to the
environment and helps to reduce your carbon footprint as well as your
energy bills - so it's a win for your pocket and a win for the

yes its free but costs a fortune to harness.

The PV stands for Photovoltaic, and if you've ever used a solar-powered
calculator then you're already familiar with the workings of solar PV.
By installing solar PV, your energy consumption is lowered and your carbon
footprint shrinks. An added benefit is that because you generate a portion of
your own electricity you're not totally dependent on the electricity grid. Solar
power means an improved BER rating. Installing solar thermal or PV means
that if you sell or rent, your property has a significant advantage compared to
your neighbours.
There is no grant offered by SEAI for the installation of solar PV.

theres a reason why there is no grant, because the paback period is soooooo lonnnnng. TBH if your renting out your house it may be cheaper to leave it empty for a year than to put in PV.

Neeni

Wyatt Itchy Trigonometry wrote: »

That's it exactly. It was patronising. I showed it to two other couples yesterday and today and after they finished laughed at the resulting "report" they said it was a rip off.

Electric Ireland, this is bad PR. Think it through please.

I have to disagree.....I just completed the wizard and found the tips really useful. I've only recently moved into a house of my own and now that I'm dealing with the mortgage, bills, etc. by myself (as opposed to splitting four ways with d housemates) , I've been tryin to make savings where I can.
Obviously I'm not as in the know as Wyatt Itchy Trigonometry & some of the others but the wizard def catered for my requirements.

Also wanted to say well done to David. You obviously know your stuff and it is great to have you on board. It is refreshing to see a company put themselves out there for good or bad and you are flying the flag high for ESB Electric Ireland. Thanks for d tips!!

Electric Ireland: David

KM88 wrote:

Can you tell us what proportion of Domestic Urban users (excluding those on a storage heating tariff) are on the Nightsaver tariff?

Electric Ireland: David wrote:

I'll see if I can get more info on this for you.

Good morning KM88,

Of the 2 million or so residential electricity customers on the ROI grid*, approximately 10% have the nightsaver meter installed. The vast majority of these customers are in urban areas (approx. 175,000).

Neeni wrote:

Also wanted to say well done to David. You obviously know your stuff and it is great to have you on board. It is refreshing to see a company put themselves out there for good or bad and you are flying the flag high for ESB Electric Ireland. Thanks for d tips!!

Thank you very much Neeni!

Glad to hear the Energy Wizard worked well for you!

*This is inclusive of all suppliers, i.e. a full market view

KM88

Electric Ireland: David wrote: »

Good morning KM88,

Of the 2 million or so residential electricity customers on the ROI grid*, approximately 10% have the nightsaver meter installed. The vast majority of these customers are in urban areas (approx. 175,000).

That's good info David, thanks - more than I expected!

I presume when you say they "have the nightsaver meter installed", that means they are also on a NS tariff? Or could they have a NS meter but still be on a standard urban tariff?

I'm asking because I know I can switch to a NS meter at no cost but if I later want to change back to a "normal" meter, there is a hefty charge for that - hefty enough to wipe out all the savings I calculate I could make from NS in nearly two years.

Is it an option to change to a NS meter and tariff, then later change back to a normal tariff without changing replacing the meter - ie, just change the tariff?

Is there a good reason why a NS meter would ever actually need to be changed? Surely if I have a NS meter but decide to go back to a standard tariff, you just read both dials and bill me at the standard rate for the entire usage.

Electric Ireland: David

Hi KM88,

KM88 wrote:

I presume when you say they "have the nightsaver meter installed", that means they are also on a NS tariff?

Yes, that's right.

KM88 wrote:

Is it an option to change to a NS meter and tariff, then later change back to a normal tariff without changing replacing the meter - ie, just change the tariff?

This depends on the type of meter you currently have installed. In the case of the older 'analogue' meters (which are the most common devices), the Nightsaver and the Standard 24hr meter are physically different models, which would need to be physically swapped in the case of a change of tariff.

The newer digital meters, on the other hand, incorporate day/night readings seamlessly, so that customers on a 24hr tariff can check fairly easily whether they would be suitable for a Nightsaver tariff (or vice versa), based on the recorded usage. Customers who have these meters installed would still need a technician visit in the case of a change of tariff, but the meter itself would not need to be swapped out for another model.

KM88 wrote:

I'm asking because I know I can switch to a NS meter at no cost but if I later want to change back to a "normal" meter, there is a hefty charge for that - hefty enough to wipe out all the savings I calculate I could make from NS in nearly two years.

There had previously been a similar charge for switching to Nightsaver, but this was removed so as to encourage suitable customers to make the switch. (The costs involved in changing tariff are set and sanctioned by the Commission for Energy Regulation).

If you have any more questions, don't hesitate to ask.

Thanks,

David.