Woooooooooooooooo hooooooooooooo!!!

philologos

WesternNight wrote: »

Well as long as that's alright with you

As was said already. I'd have to take a long time out to think about that type of situation. I think a lot of men would. The fact that one can't see that that is inherently reasonable is strange to me, or indeed that it would be morally wrong to hide something like that from someone.

Metallitroll

Links234 wrote: »

well, I am gay. that's what lesbian means, a gay woman.

and no, it's not "alpha" at all :pac:

hmph. .. no. no its not. yawn. tbh i would have thought you were merely gay without all this 'lesbian' obfuscation

but you know my stance kidoo, no surprise advances, particularly with a further surprise in tow, and we will get along just fine. for i am somewhat androgynous asexual. i don't even know the terms

tallaghtmick

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Damn - there are some really good questions on AH this evening! What's going on? :eek: Is the sky going to fall in?!

The answer is - "it depends". It is more than likely that a man doing that to a trans woman would be perceived by both as being straight sex (with the anus being a "substitute vagina").

As for a trans woman doing that to a man - well, that is where I start to get stumped. I think most trans women would never dream of doing that to a man - most trans women are somewhat disgusted by their "manhood", and so cannot involve it in sexual activity. Also, HRT often renders the "manhood" completely inoperable as a sex instrument.

But for those trans women who would - well, you would really have to ask the two people involved what it meant for them. I guess it's no different to a cisgendered (= opposite of transgendered) woman with a strap-on doing it to her partner :eek: .

well ma'am you have answered my questions and i tip my hat to you......now to find it first:pac:

deirdre_dub

Links234 wrote: »

The general rule of thumb I've heard from a lot of trans people is "before the first kiss" which seems sensible

I've actually kissed a few guys who didn't know that I'm trans. The most recent time was last night at the AH beers - a guy came up to me and did the whole "let's kiss each other on the cheek" motion. So, I did.

What else was I to do? Say no? Sit him down first and explain things to him?

Another example. I was in a nightclub a couple of weeks ago when, next thing, a guy grabbed my arm, planted a wet one on my lips, and let me go. *swoon*

Again, what could I do? Go after him and say - "hey, guess what!?" :rolleyes:

krudler

deirdre_dub wrote: »

I've actually kissed a few guys who didn't know that I'm trans. The most recent time was last night at the AH beers - a guy came up to me and did the whole "let's kiss each other on the cheek" motion. So, I did.

What else was I to do? Say no? Sit him down first and explain things to him?

Another example. I was in a nightclub a couple of weeks ago when, next thing, a guy grabbed my arm, planted a wet one on my lips, and let me go. *swoon*

Again, what could I do? Go after him and say - "hey, guess what!?" :rolleyes:

would he have done the same knowing you're trans though? must be hard, its not like you can wear a sign or something, tough decision to make.

squishykins

deirdre_dub wrote: »

I've actually kissed a few guys who didn't know that I'm trans. The most recent time was last night at the AH beers - a guy came up to me and did the whole "let's kiss each other on the cheek" motion. So, I did.

What else was I to do? Say no? Sit him down first and explain things to him?

Another example. I was in a nightclub a couple of weeks ago when, next thing, a guy grabbed my arm, planted a wet one on my lips, and let me go. *swoon*

Again, what could I do? Go after him and say - "hey, guess what!?" :rolleyes:

The meaning I took from what links said was that you should tell them before your first serious kiss, like when things are past the initial stage, and you feel that there might be a bit more to the relationship...Maybe I'm wrong I dunno

johnn

The obvious loophole here is that they could be out giving hand-shandies etc to guys but as long as they don't kiss the guy won't hear the truth!

Links234

squishykins wrote: »

The meaning I took from what links said was that you should tell them before your first serious kiss, like when things are past the initial stage, and you feel that there might be a bit more to the relationship...Maybe I'm wrong I dunno

yeah that's what I meant

krudler

johnn wrote: »

The obvious loophole here is that they could be out giving hand-shandies etc to guys but as long as they don't kiss the guy won't hear the truth!

what happened, under your bridge too drafty this time of year?

deirdre_dub

Metallitroll wrote: »

in fact you've gone one better in that you're so only attracted to women, you actually want to be one.

Sorry, but I am going to repeat what I feel is an important point that I made earlier.

I neither choose nor want to be a woman.

What has happened is I have discovered that I am a woman.

For more information, see my post here -

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71019598&postcount=169

deirdre_dub

Jakkass wrote: »

It's more with the absurdity of deirdre's view that people should keep this private from future partners.

I did not say that I should keep this private from future partners - what I believe is that I should not be required to disclose it.

There is a difference.

Of course, if I find myself choosing not to disclose it, then I have to ask myself why, because it is likely that the reason has something to do with something wrong with the relationship.

Wolfe Tone

You cant build a relationship while keeping something that big and major hidden imo, and nor should you it is not fair.

tallaghtmick

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Of course, if I find myself choosing not to disclose it,QUOTE]

as i found out last night at the boards beers:pac:

joke i didnt go

second joke she wouldnt have me

deirdre_dub

krudler wrote: »

would he have done the same knowing you're trans though? must be hard, its not like you can wear a sign or something, tough decision to make.

It is very difficult indeed.

You are right - if he had known I'm trans, he probably wouldn't have kissed me. And so it is in general - if I let everyone know I'm trans, probably very few will treat me as a regular woman and get to know me as one, and hence I (and them) could lose out on love opportunities.

These are the dilemmas that all trans people face. At the root of these dilemmas is a mis-understanding of transgenderism amongst the general population. Hence the importance of threads like these, and of people like Links who are such great communicators.

Iwasfrozen

For once I find myself agreeing with Wolf Tone. Relationships are built on trust. IMO any partner should be told as soon as things start to get serious. Definitely not something you want your mother to spill around the christmas table.

Links234

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbdkX_Qqu24

r3nu4l

I haven't read the entire thread, just the original post and a few others.

Links, congratulations! The start of a brand new road for you and I suspect the beginnings of the outwardly physical side of you that you've always been inside (if that makes sense )

Brilliant! Glad to see someone is having a great weekend

Wolfe Tone

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

For once I find myself agreeing with Wolf Tone. Relationships are built on trust. IMO any partner should be told as soon as things start to get serious. Definitely not something you want your mother to spill around the christmas table.

I would like to know from the very beginning tbh

deirdre_dub

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

You cant build a relationship while keeping something that big and major hidden imo, and nor should you it is not fair.

I would be much more comfortable disclosing if there were no negative consequences for me of disclosing.

As things stand, disclosing can not only lead to losing an otherwise viable opportunity for love (i.e. where the other person says "no" because they are under a misunderstanding of what transgenderism is about, and not because we are actually incompatible), disclosing can also lead to me experiencing violence.

I'm living in an apartment where there have been anonymous threats put under the door by someone else who lives in the complex. So, no, I do not believe I have any obligation to wear a neon sign saying that I'm transgender. I believe that for me to do so would be incredibly stupid.

deirdre_dub

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

For once I find myself agreeing with Wolf Tone. Relationships are built on trust.

Trust works both ways.

If he proves himself trustworthy, then I'll be much more inclined to trust him. If I've just met him, I have to entertain the possibility that he is the kind of person I mentioned above who puts anonymous threats under the doors of trans people who are living in the same apartment complex.

Wolfe Tone

deirdre_dub wrote: »

I would be much more comfortable disclosing if there were no negative consequences for me of disclosing.

As things stand, disclosing can not only lead to losing an otherwise viable opportunity for love (i.e. where the other person says "no" because they are under a misunderstanding of what transgenderism is about, and not because we are actually incompatible), disclosing can also lead to me experiencing violence.

I'm living in an apartment where there have been anonymous threats put under the door by someone else who lives in the complex. So, no, I do not believe I have any obligation to wear a neon sign saying that I'm transgender. I believe that for me to do so would be incredibly stupid.

People have views on transgenderism, whether you think they are valid or not is irrelevant.


They could be shocked and disgusted upon discovering that a person they are in a relationship with someone who is transgender, it could be damaging to them as well, think of the other party rather than just yourself.

deirdre_dub

squishykins wrote: »

The meaning I took from what links said was that you should tell them before your first serious kiss, like when things are past the initial stage, and you feel that there might be a bit more to the relationship...Maybe I'm wrong I dunno

Unfortunately, the early development of relationships don't always work like that. The whole process can be kind of uncontrollable!

The most important thing I have to do, as quickly as I possibly can, is find out if the person I'm with is transphobic / homophobic. Because the answer to that question could literally save my life.

It is also a nightmare situation for me if things get serious and then we discover that he is transphobic. Now - whose fault would that be - mine, or his?

The answer, you might say, is to wear the fact that I'm trans on my sleeve. The problem with that approach is that there are many people who will say "no" to me out of fear / misinformation, rather than out of any fundamental incompatibility.

It's a balancing act.

krudler

deirdre_dub wrote: »

I would be much more comfortable disclosing if there were no negative consequences for me of disclosing.

As things stand, disclosing can not only lead to losing an otherwise viable opportunity for love (i.e. where the other person says "no" because they are under a misunderstanding of what transgenderism is about, and not because we are actually incompatible), disclosing can also lead to me experiencing violence.

I'm living in an apartment where there have been anonymous threats put under the door by someone else who lives in the complex. So, no, I do not believe I have any obligation to wear a neon sign saying that I'm transgender. I believe that for me to do so would be incredibly stupid.

Even if someone understands exactly what transgenderism is but simply wouldnt want to be in a relastionship with a trans person, is that bad? Its not fair to call anyone who just wouldnt be attracted to someone after finding out their transgender as phobic or ignorant either. it just may not be something they want their partner to be.

dlofnep

Deirdre_Dub, you are absolutely 100% required to let somebody know. It isn't all about "you" - a relationship or potential relationship is built on two people. So if a person is interested, you need to be upfront and honest with them from the get-go.

Not disclosing could traumatize someone emotionally. You're selfish if you ask me. And I'm neither transphobic, or unsupportive of the LGBT community.

deirdre_dub

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

People have views on transgenderism, whether you think they are valid or not is irrelevant.

I hope you are not suggesting that a view which leads to anonymous death threats is an acceptable view?

They could be shocked and disgusted upon discovering that a person they are in a relationship with someone who is transgender

That would be their problem, not mine. I didn't choose to have a medical condition that I had no act or part in creating.

it could be damaging to them as well

How?

think of the other party rather than just yourself.

I will - if you extend the same courtesy to me.

deirdre_dub

dlofnep wrote: »

Deirdre_Dub, you are absolutely 100% required to let somebody know. It isn't all about "you"

It isn't 100% about the other person.

a relationship or potential relationship is built on two people.

CORRECT!

It is also about me and about my needs and, in particular, about my physical safety.

So if a person is interested, you need to be upfront and honest with them from the get-go.

So in the face of living in a world where there are people who will put anonymous death threats under the door of my apartment, I should wear the fact that I'm trans on my sleeve?!

Not disclosing could traumatize someone emotionally.

How?!

And, that would be their problem, not mine.

You're selfish if you ask me.

I believe it is selfish to put your emotional needs above my physcial safety needs.

deirdre_dub

krudler wrote: »

Even if someone understands exactly what transgenderism is but simply wouldnt want to be in a relastionship with a trans person, is that bad?

It depends on why they wouldn't be in a relationship with a trans person.

But, let's just say that of course it wouldn't be a problem if they didn't want to be in a relationship with this trans person!

Its not fair to call anyone who just wouldnt be attracted to someone after finding out their transgender as phobic or ignorant either.

That's not what I said. What I said was the opposite - I said that phobia and ignorance causes some people to discount trans people they would otherwise love.

liah

krudler wrote: »

Even if someone understands exactly what transgenderism is but simply wouldnt want to be in a relastionship with a trans person, is that bad? Its not fair to call anyone who just wouldnt be attracted to someone after finding out their transgender as phobic or ignorant either. it just may not be something they want their partner to be.

I don't honestly get why it matters if they're transgender or not. If you get along with them on every conceivable level, and are attracted to them sexually before they tell you, and then they use the word 'but I'm transgender'-- what's changed?

They're still the person you get on with and are attracted to. Literally the only thing that would change is that you know they're trans. Why should that change anything?

So tbh I'd find it a little.. phobic, if someone gave up someone who was perfect for them simply because of the word 'trans' in front of their displayed gender.

Then again I'm pretty sure I'm pansexual so would have trouble understanding anyone who wouldn't be with someone who they found to be sexually attractive with an attractive personality just because of some arbitrary label. I mean like-- if it works, who cares?

If you like the person, you like THAT PERSON, not who they were, not who they could be, not what labels can be applied to them, just them, as they are.

tallaghtmick

dlofnep wrote: »

Deirdre_Dub, you are absolutely 100% required to let somebody know. It isn't all about "you" - a relationship or potential relationship is built on two people. So if a person is interested, you need to be upfront and honest with them from the get-go.QUOTE]


so deirdre should be 100% honest about it?if you had a std would you blurt it out on a first date or even have a badly scarred body would you tell someone "hey i dunno where we are going but ive scars all over my stomach ye still wanna ride"

johnn

deirdre_dub wrote: »

I believe it is selfish to put your emotional needs above my physcial safety needs.

I would say it would be a serious minority of people whose immediate reaction would be to batter you if they didn't know you at all and you disclosed this.

Wolfe Tone

deirdre_dub wrote: »

I hope you are not suggesting that a view which leads to anonymous death threats is an acceptable view?

Dont be putting words in my mouth, or try to steamroll my arguement with a hyperbole laden tirade.

That would be their problem, not mine. I didn't choose to have a medical condition that I had no act or part in creating.

So are you saying that people with medical conditions, serious ones, should not tell people they are in relationships about them?

And no, its not "their problem" its largely yours for putting them in a situation they would not have put themselves in if you were honest.

How?

Its quite clear how they would potentially suffer and cause them trauma.

MagicSean

liah wrote: »

I don't honestly get why it matters if they're transgender or not. If you get along with them on every conceivable level, and are attracted to them sexually before they tell you, and then they use the word 'but I'm transgender'-- what's changed?

They're still the person you get on with and are attracted to. Literally the only thing that would change is that you know they're trans. Why should that change anything?

So tbh I'd find it a little.. phobic, if someone gave up someone who was perfect for them simply because of the word 'trans' in front of their displayed gender.

Correct me if I'm wrong but there is much more to someone being transgender than their sexual organs. Medical issues such as the lack of ability to have children and the lifetime of hormone treatment. All things which a person should know before getting into a relationship.

deirdre_dub

johnn wrote: »

I would say it would be a serious minority of people whose immediate reaction would be to batter you if they didn't know you at all and you disclosed this.

Correct. But that knowledge would be of no use to me if I were to wake up in hospital having been unlucky enough to have encountered such a person.

I must first of all find out if my physical safety could be in danger before I entertain any ideas of disclosing.

liah

k_mac wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but there is much more to someone being transgender than their sexual organs. Medical issues such as the lack of ability to have children and the lifetime of hormone treatment. All things which a person should know before getting into a relationship.

Lack of ability to have children is hardly restricted to those who are transgender, and I doubt the majority of those who are incapable of reproduction bring that up on the first date. There is also always the possibility of adoption, obviously depending on your location.

I'm not sure what difference the HRT makes to accepting that you love someone's mind and are attracted to their body. Would you not date a diabetic because they have to inject themselves? What's the difference?

deirdre_dub

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

So are you saying that people with medical conditions, serious ones, should not tell people they are in relationships about them?

If those medical conditions have no consequences for the other person in the relationship, then yes. And such is the case with post-op trans women.

And no, its not "their problem" its largely yours for putting them in a situation they would not have put themselves in if you were honest.

What "situation"? Being in love?

Its quite clear how they would potentially suffer and cause them trauma.

I think what is going on here is that you don't actually understand transgenderism, because there is no harm that could come to them. In other words, you are an example of someone who leads me to believe that I shouldn't disclose before love has had a chance to form.

johnn

liah wrote: »

I don't honestly get why it matters if they're transgender or not. If you get along with them on every conceivable level, and are attracted to them sexually before they tell you, and then they use the word 'but I'm transgender'-- what's changed?

They're still the person you get on with and are attracted to. Literally the only thing that would change is that you know they're trans. Why should that change anything?

So tbh I'd find it a little.. phobic, if someone gave up someone who was perfect for them simply because of the word 'trans' in front of their displayed gender.

Then again I'm pretty sure I'm pansexual so would have trouble understanding anyone who wouldn't be with someone who they found to be sexually attractive with an attractive personality just because of some arbitrary label. I mean like-- if it works, who cares?

If you like the person, you like THAT PERSON, not who they were, not who they could be, not what labels can be applied to them, just them, as they are.

I'm sorry but I think this is an insane point of view. yeah the only reason is because they have the word "trans" in front of their gender. simples.

Wolfe Tone

deirdre_dub wrote: »

If those medical conditions have no consequences for the other person in the relationship, then yes. And such is the case with post-op trans women.

But it may have consequences, could traumatise them.

What "situation"? Being in love?

Being in a relationship with a transgender person.

I think what is going on here is that you don't actually understand transgenderism, because there is no harm that could come to them. In other words, you are an example of someone who leads me to believe that I shouldn't disclose before love has had a chance to form.

Yawn.


I do understand perfectly, and have my own opinions on the matter.

Others mightn't. You cant force them to think the way you do. In their minds they may have been in a homosexual relationship, and one which they were tricked into. It is obvious how that could cause mental trauma.

liah

johnn wrote: »

I'm sorry but I think this is an insane point of view. yeah the only reason is because they have the word "trans" in front of their gender. simples.

Seriously though, think about it. If being with that person makes you happy mentally and physically, what difference does it make who they used to be? What matters is who they are now.

If they make you happy, where is the problem?

desaparecidos

Links234 wrote: »

or you can even PM me

Yeah....I don't think so.

deirdre_dub

johnn wrote: »

I'm sorry but I think this is an insane point of view. yeah the only reason is because they have the word "trans" in front of their gender. simples.

So you are fundamentally anti-trans? You basically don't know anything about trans, yet you know enough to be anti-trans?

Wolfe Tone

liah wrote: »

Seriously though, think about it. If being with that person makes you happy mentally and physically, what difference does it make who they used to be? What matters is who they are now.

If they make you happy, where is the problem?

Well for some people they may feel they have been tricked into having a homosexual relationship, which they would not have chosen.

I wouldnt feel like that, but its clear how many many people would.

Fluorescence

To be fair to Deirdre_Dub, she simply seems to be saying that she wouldn't tell someone off the bat that she used to be a man; rather, she'd wait to see that they weren't vehemently homophobic or anti-trans before letting them know. I think that's fair.

deirdre_dub

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Being in a relationship with a transgender person.

Same question - so you are fundamentally anti-trans?

I do understand perfectly

OK - teach me. What am I? Why am I putting my body through what I'm putting it through?

In their minds they may have been in a homosexual relationship

That is their choice, a choice based on ignorance, and one that I absolutely would not and could not support them in.

and one which they were tricked into

Oh good grief!

It is obvious how that could cause mental trauma.

Yes - if they were homophobic, and decided that this relationship with a woman was a gay relationship, then that would, indeed, traumatise them.

liah

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Well for some people they may feel they have been tricked into having a homosexual relationship, which they would not have chosen.

I wouldnt feel like that, but its clear how many many people would.

But it isn't a homosexual relationship.

I mean, I agree with you; honesty is important. What I'm saying is more about people's reactions to it rather than when to tell. I don't understand why anyone would have a problem being with transgender for the reasons stated above (mainly: if it makes you happy, who the hell cares?).

Being with a transgender is the same thing as being with a cisgender. I don't understand why people are so terrified of it. Why does it matter if you two are happy together? Why would someone have a problem with someone being transgender?

Links234

guys, can we just not have this tired debate?

deirdre_dub

fluorescence wrote: »

To be fair to Deirdre_Dub, she simply seems to be saying that she wouldn't tell someone off the bat that she used to be a man; rather, she'd wait to see that they weren't vehemently homophobic or anti-trans before letting them know. I think that's fair.

Thank you. I'll just correct two minor points.

First of all, I was never truly a man. I was (mis-)identified as one for a long time, but in fact I was never actually one.

Second of all, I wouldn't just wait until I learned that they weren't vehemently homophobic or anti-trans, I'd wait until the relationship had developed to a point where I feel I could share with them a very painful part of my life. And, it is possible that the relationship might never reach that stage. In which case, as I said, I'd find myself questioning why I was remaining in the relationship.

krudler

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Yes - if they were homophobic, and decided that this relationship with a woman was a gay relationship, then that would, indeed, traumatise them.

hang on, not being homophobic and not wanting to be with someone who used to be a man arent the same thing. Its not as simple as if you wouldnt date a trans person you must be homophobic.

Wolfe Tone

liah wrote: »

But it isn't a homosexual relationship.

Yeah I know, but many would feel that it was, I am sure how you can see why, whether you feel that is an ignorant attitude it is irrelevent, it is how many people view it.

I mean, I agree with you; honesty is important. What I'm saying is more about people's reactions to it rather than when to tell. I don't understand why anyone would have a problem being with transgender for the reasons stated above (mainly: if it makes you happy, who the hell cares?).

Its subjective, different people can have different reactions. ie, they may feel that having a male body makes you male, and no amount of surgery can change that.

Being with a transgender is the same thing as being with a cisgender. I don't understand why people are so terrified of it. Why does it matter if you two are happy together? Why would someone have a problem with someone being transgender?

Because they may feel they have been tricked if they werent told straight away and that the relationship has been built on a lie.

johnn

liah wrote: »

Seriously though, think about it. If being with that person makes you happy mentally and physically, what difference does it make who they used to be? What matters is who they are now.

If they make you happy, where is the problem?

I think we were talking about initial meeting and couple of dates after meeting and whether this should be disclosed. obviously at that stage it wouldn't be crushing to back out at this stage, citing reasons such as them having a penis(i'm not sure if we're talking pre/post op). I've seen some of your posts before & I think you said you're Bisexual so i assume differences downstairs wouldn't be an issue with you!

I'd imagine from your comments you're talking about if this person is "the one", that could be quite scarring for someone to be with the person a while, fall for them and then have this revealed.

deirdre_dub

krudler wrote: »

hang on, not being homophobic and not wanting to be with someone who used to be a man arent the same thing. Its not as simple as if you wouldnt date a trans person you must be homophobic.

Again, what I said is being reversed. I said that a homophobic person dating a trans person in a relationship that the homophobe decided was homosexual would traumatise the homophobe.