Woooooooooooooooo hooooooooooooo!!!

johnn

deirdre_dub wrote: »

So you are fundamentally anti-trans? You basically don't know anything about trans, yet you know enough to be anti-trans?

No that was sarcastic, I was saying that obviously having the word "trans" in front of the gender is obviously not the sole reason for not wanting to enter the relationship as was implied.

krudler

liah wrote: »

But it isn't a homosexual relationship.

I mean, I agree with you; honesty is important. What I'm saying is more about people's reactions to it rather than when to tell. I don't understand why anyone would have a problem being with transgender for the reasons stated above (mainly: if it makes you happy, who the hell cares?).

Being with a transgender is the same thing as being with a cisgender. I don't understand why people are so terrified of it. Why does it matter if you two are happy together? Why would someone have a problem with someone being transgender?

That doesnt mean people shouldnt have a problem with it though. same as people wouldnt want to date someone with a violent past, children from a previous marriage, psycholigical issues, any of dozens if not hundreds of reasons that someone may not be attracted to someone after finding out something about them, its human nature.

liah

johnn wrote: »

I'd imagine from your comments you're talking about if this person is "the one", that could be quite scarring for someone to be with the person a while, fall for them and then have this revealed.

Why should it be scarring though? Again: if they make you happy, like, truly happy, and they give you a funny quiver in your pants, does it really matter in the greater scheme of things?

I'm speaking post-op exclusively though. I do think it's necessary to tell them as soon as possible if you're pre-op if that's the case.

Fluorescence

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Thank you. I'll just correct two minor points.

First of all, I was never truly a man. I was (mis-)identified as one for a long time, but in fact I was never actually one.

I realise that, I just meant that at one point in time you were physically had a man's body. Poor wording, sorry.

Second of all, I wouldn't just wait until I learned that they weren't vehemently homophobic or anti-trans, I'd wait until the relationship had developed to a point where I feel I could share with them a very painful part of my life. And, it is possible that the relationship might never reach that stage. In which case, as I said, I'd find myself questioning why I was remaining in the relationship.

That's fair enough. It's not like you would marry or get really serious with someone you couldn't trust that much anyway, so it's not like you're being fundamentally dishonest with your partner.

johnn

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Well for some people they may feel they have been tricked into having a homosexual relationship, which they would not have chosen.

In the same way that Ross Gellar was "tricked" into smoking marijuana in Friends.

deirdre_dub

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Yeah I know, but many would feel that it was (a homosexual relationship)

Wolfe - the story is that I cannot be in a relationship with a man who sees the relationship as a homosexual one. Why? Because, in order for my partner to see the relationship as a homosexual one, he has to see me as a man!

So this argument about traumatising people for being in a homosexual relationship is nonsense.

liah

krudler wrote: »

That doesnt mean people shouldnt have a problem with it though. same as people wouldnt want to date someone with a violent past, children from a previous marriage, psycholigical issues, any of dozens if not hundreds of reasons that someone may not be attracted to someone after finding out something about them, its human nature.

Again, I'm of the opinion that if you like everything about the person as they are now and are attracted to them, it's the only thing that matters, because being happy is the only thing that matters. People have a ridiculous capacity for change and aren't always defined by their pasts. I've had a violent past and had depression and to think that I would be written off because of these things is a bit nuts as they don't affect who I am now. As a result I wouldn't write anyone off simply because of something they were in the past that they aren't anymore.

Chasing Amy puts it better than I can I guess, if you haven't seen it watch it and it might make it a bit clearer.

Nodin

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Another good question. :eek:

It is a "slow release" pill. It isn't actually given in the stomach - it is injected between the skin and the muscle (I believe), where it lies, slowly releasing the anti-androgens into the system.

Ty.

Wolfe Tone

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Wolfe - the story is that I cannot be in a relationship with a man who sees the relationship as a homosexual one. Why? Because, in order for my partner to see the relationship as a homosexual one, he has to see me as a man!

So this argument about traumatising people for being in a homosexual relationship is nonsense.

No its not nonsense at all.

If you dont tell your prospective partner, he may feel he is in a relationship with a woman, however he may also feel that people born with a male body are always men. Thus upon discovering that you were born with a mans body he would feel he had been tricked into having a homosexual relationship, and that said relationship was built under lies and false pretenses.

Its not that hard to understand how someone would feel like that, and how it could cause trauma.

deirdre_dub

liah wrote: »

I'm speaking post-op exclusively though. I do think it's necessary to tell them as soon as possible if you're pre-op if that's the case.

Woah - another can of worms! Yummee!!!

Yes, pre-op, things are that bit different. For one thing, pre-op, this whole business of someone deciding that the relationship is a homosexual one becomes a bigger problem. There is an even greater need for a homophobic radar to be working.

As for the relationship itself - I think it's reasonable for there to be an expectation from the partner that the woman he's with has somewhere nice that he can stick it, and for him to be at least disappointed if there isn't.

liah

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

No its not nonsense at all.

If you dont tell your prospective partner, he may feel he is in a relationship with a woman, however he may also feel that people born with a male body are always men. Thus upon discovering that you were born with a mans body he would feel he had been tricked into having a homosexual relationship, and that said relationship was built under lies and false pretenses.

Its not that hard to understand how someone would feel like that, and how it could cause trauma.

I would imagine she would screen for that kind of ignorance (scientifically, anyway) in a partner before becoming emotionally invested.

Wolfe Tone

deirdre dub seems to be saying that people who dont want to be in a relationship they would view as homosexual are homophobic, that is rubbish.

Wolfe Tone

liah wrote: »

I would imagine she would screen for that kind of ignorance (scientifically, anyway) in a partner before becoming emotionally invested.

She should tell the person straight away, rather than just thinking of herself! There are two people in a relationship!

WesternNight

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

No its not nonsense at all.

If you dont tell your prospective partner, he may feel he is in a relationship with a woman, however he may also feel that people born with a male body are always men. Thus upon discovering that you were born with a mans body he would feel he had been tricked into having a homosexual relationship, and that said relationship was built under lies and false pretenses.

Its not that hard to understand how someone would feel like that, and how it could cause trauma.

So basically transgender people just have to assume that everyone they might have a potential relationship with is going to be completely ignorant of the facts of being transgender and therefore must disclose the fact as early as possible so as to protect them and their feelings, regardless of the consequences to the transgender person themselves? That's the feeling I'm getting from your posts anyway.

deirdre_dub

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

he may also feel that people born with a male body are always men

Yes - exactly. He may be uneducated about what trans people actually are.

Of course, if his beliefs are of the fundamental variety, then that is something I need to know, as it is likely that his beliefs would make a relationship between us impossible.

Wolfe - we are on the same page on one thing. Both of us hope that you never, ever, ever fall in love with a trans woman. However, that does not mean that I should put myself in physical danger, or scupper my chances with men who might otherwise love me, because of where you are coming from.

liah

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

She should tell the person straight away, rather than just thinking of herself! There are two people in a relationship!

What? No, I mean I would imagine she would get to know their views on transgender and homosexuality issues before getting into a relationship with someone.. at least that's the impression I've got from her posts.

Would you expect someone who's, say, infertile to divulge it on the first date, for example? Or someone who's adopted? Or someone who's depressed? Or someone who's been raped? And so on, and so on..

foxinsox

krudler wrote: »

That doesnt mean people shouldnt have a problem with it though. same as people wouldnt want to date someone with a violent past, children from a previous marriage, psycholigical issues, any of dozens if not hundreds of reasons that someone may not be attracted to someone after finding out something about them, its human nature.

I get what you are saying

But if you think about it.. it seems to be all about timing, regardless of the issue, as has already been discussed in previous posts.

If two people (regardless of sexual orientation) meet and are attracted to each other..

On a first date here is a list/example of things that probably wouldn't/shouldn't come up in conversation on first night out..
BUT should be discussed/revealed at the appropriate time - whenever that is...

"Oh by the way I beat up my ex"

"I have anorexia"

"I have seven children by seven different fathers"

"I talk to myself all the time!"

"I'm an alcoholic"

"I suffer from depression"

"I'm pregnant"

etc etc..

I believe that there are certain things that need not come out immediately, I have been in situations where I have been told something after a few dates on, which would change my opinion of the person whom I was attracted to.

That is human nature, some things could be dealt with, others maybe not. It depends on the attraction and the life situation of both people and it is for those two people to decide whether it is right for them.

We all (I believe) have things in our life that we defnitely do not discuss upon first meeting someone. I don't think what is being discussed here is any different.

Gummy Panda

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Wolfe - we are on the same page on one thing. Both of us hope that you never, ever, ever fall in love with a trans woman. However, that does not mean that I should put myself in physical danger, or scupper my chances with men who might otherwise love me, because of where you are coming from.

Would you not put yourself in danger at a later stage when you tell them the full story?

Wolfe Tone

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Yes - exactly. He may be uneducated about what trans people actually are.

Of course, if his beliefs are of the fundamental variety, then that is something I need to know, as it is likely that his beliefs would make a relationship between us impossible.

Wolfe - we are on the same page on one thing. Both of us hope that you never, ever, ever fall in love with a trans woman. However, that does not mean that I should put myself in physical danger, or scupper my chances with men who might otherwise love me, because of where you are coming from.

Hey, I dont particularily care if I do or not, I would like to have kids though, but it would be a much much bigger issue for many people, and it is cruel of you to ignore that fact.

Wolfe Tone

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Would you not put yourself in danger at a later stage when you tell them the full story?

I would imagine it would be much worse.

Metallitroll

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Would you not put yourself in danger at a later stage when you tell them the full story?

trust me; they would be. for i wouldn't be bearing the brunt of the trauma again, n those were "just" gay man advances

Wolfe Tone

liah wrote: »

What? No, I mean I would imagine she would get to know their views on transgender and homosexuality issues before getting into a relationship with someone.. at least that's the impression I've got from her posts.

Would you expect someone who's, say, infertile to divulge it on the first date, for example? Or someone who's adopted? Or someone who's depressed? Or someone who's been raped? And so on, and so on..

She is saying she would go out with them for a while, then tell them.

deirdre_dub

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

deirdre dub seems to be saying that people who dont want to be in a relationship they would view as homosexual are homophobic, that is rubbish.

Not necessarily homophobic, though I hope you would agree with me that it is at least a possibility.

No - what I've been saying is that it is most likely due to ignorance about what transgenderism is and isn't. But there are other potential causes.

I'm also finding it curious that there has been a ton of discussion about this issue, and almost no discussion about what kind of people myself and links are. We have been reduced to body parts. But, I guess, a lot of men do that to their potential partners.

liah

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

She is saying she would go out with them for a while, then tell them.

Can you answer the remainder of the post please?

deirdre_dub

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Hey, I dont particularily care if I do or not, I would like to have kids though, but it would be a much much bigger issue for many people, and it is cruel of you to ignore that fact.

I've stated on a number of occassions that I'm too old to consider being a parent, and, in any case, if I discovered that having children who weren't adopted was important to the other person, of course I would tell them that I am sterile.

Gummy Panda

liah wrote: »

Can you answer the remainder of the post please?

Liah,

Tell someone you are transgender would be more important then those examples. Just cause a transgender woman defines herself as a woman doesn't mean her date will. She would be wasting the guys time and her own.

Wolfe Tone

liah wrote: »

Can you answer the remainder of the post please?

tbf they are a bit different. For the vast majority of people a person being transgender would be a much bigger issue than a person being adopted.

When it comes to something like transgender issues I think a person deserves to know what they are getting into.

liah

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Liah,

Tell someone you are transgender would be more important then those examples. Just cause a transgender woman defines herself as a woman doesn't mean her date will. She would be wasting the guys time and her own.

The same could be said for literally any one of those things, insofar as it comes down to a difference of perspective. I don't see why it's necessary to go into the murky depths of your past on the very first date.

deirdre_dub

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Would you not put yourself in danger at a later stage when you tell them the full story?

I intend to never put myself in danger at any time.

The first thing I have to do is to try and find out if there may be any danger to me. And I have to do that without disclosing my story - otherwise, I could end up finding out that I'm in danger the hard way!!!

If I get any hint of being in danger at any stage, I run. It's that simple. Unfortunately.

WesternNight

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Liah,

Tell someone you are transgender would be more important then those examples. Just cause a transgender woman defines herself as a woman doesn't mean her date will. She would be wasting the guys time and her own.

Why tell someone before you know you (and they) are interested in actually pursuing a relationship though?

I'm sure it could be fairly quickly established how people would define transgender people, so if they wouldn't define a hypothetical transgender woman as a woman then the relationship wouldn't be going anywhere anyway so there'd be no point disclosing. y'know?

deirdre_dub

Metallitroll wrote: »

trust me; they would be. for i wouldn't be bearing the brunt of the trauma again, n those were "just" gay man advances

And that is why I must never ever tell upon first meeting someone that I am trans.

Gummy Panda

liah wrote: »

The same could be said for literally any one of those things. I don't see why it's necessary to go into the murky depths of your past on the very first date.

Seriously are you for real?

I think a male to female transgender saying they use to be man would be considered quite necessary to a straight man who doesn't define them as a woman and doesn't want to engage in a relationship with one.

johnn

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Yes - exactly. He may be uneducated about what trans people actually are.

So if they guy didn't want to go out with someone who used to be a man...he us uneducated?

Wolfe Tone

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Not necessarily homophobic, though I hope you would agree with me that it is at least a possibility.

No - what I've been saying is that it is most likely due to ignorance about what transgenderism is and isn't. But there are other potential causes.

I'm also finding it curious that there has been a ton of discussion about this issue, and almost no discussion about what kind of people myself and links are. We have been reduced to body parts. But, I guess, a lot of men do that to their potential partners.

wtf It has nothing to do with homophobia, I am not but the fact that I don't want to be in a relationship with a man does not make me a homophobe.


Your second point is bollocks, especially when you take into account that you are getting surgery to change said body parts!

foxinsox

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

tbf they are a bit different. For the vast majority of people a person being transgender would be a much bigger issue than a person being adopted.

When it comes to something like transgender issues I think a person deserves to know what they are getting into.

I understand where you are coming from...

But we are talking about first date as far as I can see...

I'll give you an example:

I suffer from depression, I have for years. I would never tell a guy on a first date...

Why? Because the majority of people think that depression means sitting in your room moping about for days and being a miserable git. If I am on a first date I want to get to know this guy, why bother putting myself through upset trying to explain things to someone I may have no interest in ever seeing again..

I have told guys about my depression before, some guys can deal with it, some can't. I'm still me and that's part of me, if someone can't deal with it they are not the type of guy I want to be with.

deirdre_dub

Gummy Panda wrote: »

Tell someone you are transgender would be more important then those examples. Just cause a transgender woman defines herself as a woman doesn't mean her date will.

You are, of course, unfortunately, correct.

Such dates are those dates that are more likely to react with violence. Hence I should never ever consider telling such people that I'm trans - I first of all need to find out if they are those kind of person and, if I find out that they are, I should consider running.

She would be wasting the guys time and her own.

It's worse than that - I could be putting my life on the line. Unfortunately, just as he doesn't know what he's getting when he is on a date with me, I don't know what I'm getting when I'm on a date with him.

WesternNight

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Your second point is bollocks, especially when you take into account that you are getting surgery to change said body parts!

Ah here now...boob job? nose job? face lift? circumcision?

liah

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

tbf they are a bit different. For the vast majority of people a person being transgender would be a much bigger issue than a person being adopted.

When it comes to something like transgender issues I think a person deserves to know what they are getting into.

What is it they're 'getting into'? Happening to like someone's personality and being attracted to them? Oh, the horror! The shame!

You're missing the fundamentals of what I'm saying: there's no reason to judge someone's present self based on who they were in the past (unless they make it obvious it affects them in the present) and there is no reason to be dredging up the past on the very first date.

You brought up kids, so I asked you would you expect someone who was infertile to bring it up on the first date, because it is a fair equivalent. There is also the possibility of adoption in both cases, again, making it seem to be a fair equivalent. Can you answer?

My point is yeah, people are going to have objections to it, but the objections are not objectively rational in any sense. They're based largely on ignorance and verge on phobia in some (most?) cases.

If you're attracted to someone and get along with someone, the rest shouldn't matter. It really shouldn't. It makes no difference to how you get along with the person, it makes no difference to your interpersonal relationship with that person, it makes no difference to your sexual attraction to the person, so why let it stand in the way of what could be something great?

It just doesn't make much sense. I would like to hear a valid reason for not wanting to be with a person you're otherwise 100% attracted to, 100% can communicate with, 100% get on with and actually see yourself being happy with simply because of something they are not anymore, you never knew them as, and they never will be again.

How does that make objective, rational sense? Why stop yourself from being happy with someone for this one, sole reason, other than some kind of phobia or insecurity?

Wolfe Tone

By not telling them straight away are you not setting yourself up for a heartbreak when you tell them down the line?

deirdre_dub

johnn wrote: »

So if they guy didn't want to go out with someone who used to be a man...he us uneducated?

Yes. I was never truly a man. And that is the point at which he is uneducated.

Overheal

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lgf1mta8yI1qak0qdo1_400.gif

Fry: “Cool! Can you change into a race car?”
Hot-Dog Robot: “Nah, I’m just a pre-op Transformer.”

twinQuins

foxinsox wrote: »

Why? Because the majority of people think that depression means sitting in your room moping about for days and being a miserable git. If I am on a first date I want to get to know this guy, why bother putting myself through upset trying to explain things to someone I may have no interest in ever seeing again..

I have told guys about my depression before, some guys can deal with it, some can't. I'm still me and that's part of me, if someone can't deal with it they are not the type of guy I want to be with.

I was trying to find some way to present my thoughts but this encapsulates them perfectly: it comes down to perception and perhaps prejudice, in it's more literal sense.

A lot of people don't understand the medical complexities of transgenderism and, at heart, don't understand the nature of the issue. I am by no means as familiar with it as the trans posters but I have no problem admitting that and I do not pronounce upon it because of that.

deirdre_dub

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

By not telling them straight away are you not setting yourself up for a heartbreak when you tell them down the line?

Good question (I think it's the first good question you've had all night! ).

It's a balancing act. I need to weigh a whole load of things. I need to weigh how I feel about him, how he feels about me, how fast or slow the relationship is going, how far along I am in my quest to see if he could be "trouble" etc etc etc.

As I said before - I am not a monster (contrary to what some of the popular press say!). I am a person with a medical condition that has some ridiculous social consequences. I'm doing my best. But the view from this side of the fence is an awful lot different to the view from your side. I'm not deciding to withhold this information out of spite, or out of some wierd need to create trouble, or because I'm trying to be subversive - I'm doing it for practical, sensible reasons, and respect for the other person is, believe it or not, one of the things I have in my decision making processes.

I mean, if it works out, then at some stage, I'm going to have to explain to him why I kept him in the dark for so long. I'd better have a good explanation... And, I will.

davyjose

How do you make a hormone?

Rub her tits!

:pac:

Wolfe Tone

liah wrote: »

What is it they're 'getting into'? Happening to like someone's personality and being attracted to them? Oh, the horror! The shame!

You're missing the fundamentals of what I'm saying: there's no reason to judge someone's present self based on who they were in the past (unless they make it obvious it affects them in the present) and there is no reason to be dredging up the past on the very first date.

You brought up kids, so I asked you would you expect someone who was infertile to bring it up on the first date, because it is a fair equivalent. There is also the possibility of adoption in both cases, again, making it seem to be a fair equivalent. Can you answer?

My point is yeah, people are going to have objections to it, but the objections are not objectively rational in any sense. They're based largely on ignorance and verge on phobia in some (most?) cases.

If you're attracted to someone and get along with someone, the rest shouldn't matter. It really shouldn't. It makes no difference to how you get along with the person, it makes no difference to your interpersonal relationship with that person, it makes no difference to your sexual attraction to the person, so why let it stand in the way of what could be something great?

It just doesn't make much sense. I would like to hear a valid reason for not wanting to be with a person you're otherwise 100% attracted to, 100% can communicate with, 100% get on with and actually see yourself being happy with simply because of something they are not anymore, you never knew them as, and they never will be again.

How does that make objective, rational sense? Why stop yourself from being happy with someone for this one, sole reason, other than some kind of phobia or insecurity?

Well if you want to go down this road, what if a man you are with lets drop 6 months down the line that he is a rapist or a pedophile? Or has a history of domestic violence? History still doent matter eh?

Some people dont want to be in a relationship with a transgender person for a million reasons. Thats a choice they are entitled to make.


How would you feel if a relationship you were in was built on what you viewed as false pretences?

liah

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Well if you want to go down this road, what if a man you are with lets drop 6 months down the line that he is a rapist or a pedophile? Or has a history of domestic violence? History still doent matter eh?

Some people dont want to be in a relationship with a transgender person for a million reasons. Thats a choice they are entitled to make.

Violence, pedophilia and transgender are not comparable so I'm not even going to bother with that.

What are those reasons? Again, can you give me any objective, rational reasons?

How would you feel if a relationship you were in was built on what you viewed as false pretences?

It depends entirely on why those pretenses were created. If they were created to protect the safety of the person I had come to love, I would very much like to believe I would be understanding of them. It may bother me at first but I'm a pretty level-headed and rational person when it comes to putting things into perspective. I wouldn't ruin our happiness together just because my partner had been trying to protect themselves. It seems utterly insane to me to throw away happiness for something like that.

deirdre_dub

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

wtf It has nothing to do with homophobia, I am not but the fact that I don't want to be in a relationship with a man does not make me a homophobe.

What does the fact that you don't want to be in a relationship with a man have to do with a trans woman not telling you about her history?

Oh - that's right - you don't see her as a woman. Trust me - she will, quite early on in the relationship, find a way of finding out if you see trans women as men. And, then she will dump your ass. Quickly. And, you won't be any the wiser as to why.

Win all round!

Actually - lose all round...

Your second point is bollocks, especially when you take into account that you are getting surgery to change said body parts!

It wasn't a point - it was an observation.

For now, suffice it to say that the relationship trans women have with their bodies is complicated!

davyjose

liah wrote: »

My point is yeah, people are going to have objections to it, but the objections are not objectively rational in any sense. They're based largely on ignorance and verge on phobia in some (most?) cases.

If you're attracted to someone and get along with someone, the rest shouldn't matter. It really shouldn't. It makes no difference to how you get along with the person, it makes no difference to your interpersonal relationship with that person, it makes no difference to your sexual attraction to the person, so why let it stand in the way of what could be something great?

It just doesn't make much sense. I would like to hear a valid reason for not wanting to be with a person you're otherwise 100% attracted to, 100% can communicate with, 100% get on with and actually see yourself being happy with simply because of something they are not anymore, you never knew them as, and they never will be again.

How does that make objective, rational sense? Why stop yourself from being happy with someone for this one, sole reason, other than some kind of phobia or insecurity?

Every guy I know is, or wants to be a Dad at some point in their life.

Your turn...

Wolfe Tone

deirdre_dub wrote: »

Good question (I think it's the first good question you've had all night! ).

It's a balancing act. I need to weigh a whole load of things. I need to weigh how I feel about him, how he feels about me, how fast or slow the relationship is going, how far along I am in my quest to see if he could be "trouble" etc etc etc.

As I said before - I am not a monster (contrary to what some of the popular press say!). I am a person with a medical condition that has some ridiculous social consequences. I'm doing my best. But the view from this side of the fence is an awful lot different to the view from your side. I'm not deciding to withhold this information out of spite, or out of some wierd need to create trouble, or because I'm trying to be subversive - I'm doing it for practical, sensible reasons, and respect for the other person is, believe it or not, one of the things I have in my decision making processes.

I mean, if it works out, then at some stage, I'm going to have to explain to him why I kept him in the dark for so long. I'd better have a good explanation... And, I will.

What a selfish attitude tbh, stringing a man along like that before dropping the bombshell and telling him the truth about the relationship.


Tell him in the beginning and let him decide if thats the type of relationship he wants.

liah

davyjose wrote: »

Every guy I know is, or wants to be a Dad at some point in their life.

Your turn...

Do you think infertile people are obliged to divulge on the first date? Are people not allowed to adopt? Get a surrogate? Etc. This argument is stupid.