No Clothes On Balcony!?

senordingdong

The missus and I just moved into a new apartment and this morning we put a cloths horse out on the balcony.

It was not out there twenty minutes before a snide letter came under the door telling us we are not allowed to have cloths, bicycles and mesh (wtf?) on the balcony, and if we do not remove them immediately, the owner would get a fine and the mgmt company will take 'all steps necessary to ensure the removal of the offending article'.

Can they do this?
I wanted to fight it but I don't want to cause hassle for the LL.

astrofool

They can if it's part of the lease the landlord (and by extension, you) signed up for. The landlord should have shared these type of rules with you, but that doesn't stop him getting fined for your actions.

Snakeblood

senordingdong wrote: »

The missus and I just moved into a new apartment and this morning we put a cloths horse out on the balcony.

It was not out there twenty minutes before a snide letter came under the door telling us we are not allowed to have cloths, bicycles and mesh (wtf?) on the balcony, and if we do not remove them immediately, the owner would get a fine and the mgmt company will take 'all steps necessary to ensure the removal of the offending article'.

Can they do this?
I wanted to fight it but I don't want to cause hassle for the LL.

I moved into a place and it was in the lease that stuff couldn't be dried on the balcony. at this point, I'd talk it over with your landlord and see if he's encountered this before or wants to ignore it. Also, if your landlord didn't tell you about this before, he should have.

Phoenix Park

I don't its on, leaving clothes out like this. If i may point out, it looks like shiit, other people don't want to look at your boxer shorts believe it or not. If you want to dry clothes outside, you should have bought/rented a house where doing so won't annoy the rest as they won't see it. People who have bought in your development could be sitting on loss-making/neg equity properties, its hard enough to sell (if they have to) as it is without others making the place look tatty. Just my opinion, the rules about clothes and satellite dishes are there for a reason. All the best.

xper

Aside from the actual legalties of who is allowed do what where and who get to determine this, why are this things an issue at all?

When the hell did drying clothes outside become a social nuisance? What screwed up values do you have to have to be offended by the sight of a clothes horse? When did a bike become an eyesore?

Snakeblood

xper wrote: »

Aside from the actual legalties of who is allowed do what where and who get to determine this, why are this things an issue at all?

When the hell did drying clothes outside become a social nuisance? What screwed up values do you have to have to be offended by the sight of a clothes horse? When did a bike become an eyesore?

It was back when houses were investments not somewhere to live.

RMD

Phoenix Park wrote: »

I don't its on, leaving clothes out like this. If i may point out, it looks like shiit, other people don't want to look at your boxer shorts believe it or not. If you want to dry clothes outside, you should have bought/rented a house where doing so won't annoy the rest as they won't see it. People who have bought in your development could be sitting on loss-making/neg equity properties, its hard enough to sell (if they have to) as it is without others making the place look tatty. Just my opinion, the rules about clothes and satellite dishes are there for a reason. All the best.

Tatty? How the hell does it make it look tatty. I'm not sure what kind of world you live in, but the one I live in it's ok to dry your clothes outside, you know, where the vast majority of people do?

antiskeptic

xper wrote: »

Aside from the actual legalties of who is allowed do what where and who get to determine this, why are this things an issue at all?

When the hell did drying clothes outside become a social nuisance? What screwed up values do you have to have to be offended by the sight of a clothes horse? When did a bike become an eyesore?

In all my years I've yet to see anyone locate their washing line in the front garden. Why this is so is less important than the observation it is so - 'it is so' being the essence of what constitutes 'a social norm'.

Why it is that folks, whose front garden would be greatly improved by the simple action of repositioning it to the back of the property, should attract societies disapprobation is also unknown to me. It seems too to be simply so.

3DataModem

OP...

First, who is the letter from? Is it on headed paper? Signed?

athtrasna

Our rules state you can't dry clothes on balconies or inside where they would be visible from the outside eg on clothes horses inside the windows.

Like the no satellite dish rule, we knew it existed when we bought and were happy to sign up to it. I would be unhappy if our MA/MC didn't enforce those rules. It's also why the rules are circulated quarterly to make sure that any new tenants are aware of them.

OP - your landlord should have alerted you to the rules, but you are bound by them. The landlord does face a potential sanction by not ensuring that you comply with the rules, but there may also be an issue with your lease if you disregard the rules.

The joys of apartment living!

BTW the balcony is management company property, with your landlord and their tenants having exclusive use. This would allow the Management Agent to access the balcony to remove any items in breach of the development rules.

jd

As athtrasna said.

It may be inconvenient, but we manage to dry our clothes indoors without a problem.

We signed up to these rules when we bought the place, and as owner-occupiers we agree with them. There are estates down the road with washing lines across balconies + satellite dishes everywhere etc and to be honest they look like ****e.

mikemac

It's not that you can't have a bike on the balcony.
That rule was probably brought in as they don't want people bringing their bikes through the complex, might mark the walls in the corridors.

But then if I had a bike and just a dodgy shed outside as the only facility, rules be damned. In your flat is the safest place for it..

athtrasna

feelingstressed wrote: »

It's not that you can't have a bike on the balcony.
That rule was probably brought in as they don't want people bringing their bikes through the complex, might mark the walls in the corridors.

But then if I had a bike and just a dodgy shed outside as the only facility, rules be damned. In your flat is the safest place for it..

Most apartments I have come across have rules that say no bikes on the balconies, chained to railings or in the hallways/landings. We have multiple secure sheds and if bike owners still don't think they are safe there, there is nothing against them being in the apartment, just not in a common area or on a balcony.

Solair

The clothes rules are utterly ridiculous. It's extremely bad for the environment to dry everything in a tumble dryer and many apartments are only provided with a washer-dryer which is effectively a washing machine with a hairdryer attached. They're about as useless as a chocolate teapot and should be called an automatic-clothes crumpler as they invariably totally wreck your clothes too!

Drying clothes indoors on airers will cause mould and dampness issues.

Irish towns/cities also have no launderettes anymore.

So what are you supposed to do? Just buy new clothes and throw the old ones out?

Coriolanus

If your landlord didn't tell you about it, I'd move, as far as I'm concerned that'd be grounds for breaking the lease and make sure your LL knows exactly why.
If it happens to enough LLs they'd soon be banging on about it to the MC and this kind of idiocy would be done away with.

not even wrong

athtrasna wrote: »

Our rules state you can't dry clothes on balconies or inside where they would be visible from the outside eg on clothes horses inside the windows.

Now this just takes the biscuit. What kind of little Hitler would you have to be to want such a rule enforced?

I think the problem is that many apartment owners have delusions of grandeur -- they still believe the sales brochure from 2006 that they're living in an "upmarket" "sophisticated" "high-class" "designer" development, you know the ones with the scantily clad models draped across the kitchen counters and all that. After all, they paid half a million euros for a one-bed shoebox in Darndale so they are entitled to a lifestyle corresponding to the price tag. They don't want the people who paid 100k for the same place or worse yet, renters *spit* moving in and bringing down the tone of the place with their bicycles and TV dishes and laundry.

listermint

Solair wrote: »

The clothes rules are utterly ridiculous. It's extremely bad for the environment to dry everything in a tumble dryer and many apartments are only provided with a washer-dryer which is effectively a washing machine with a hairdryer attached. They're about as useless as a chocolate teapot and should be called an automatic-clothes crumpler as they invariably totally wreck your clothes too!

Drying clothes indoors on airers will cause mould and dampness issues.

Irish towns/cities also have no launderettes anymore.

So what are you supposed to do? Just buy new clothes and throw the old ones out?

My clothes dry overnight on a clothes horse, there is no dampness or mould issues thank you very much. My clothes smell fresh as a morning breeze. I use the dryer rarely or when i need something last minute.

So no I dont see your point. Also there is a laundrette 5 mins up the road.

athtrasna

not even wrong wrote: »

Now this just takes the biscuit. What kind of little Hitler would you have to be to want such a rule enforced?

I think the problem is that many apartment owners have delusions of grandeur -- they still believe the sales brochure from 2006 that they're living in an "upmarket" "sophisticated" "high-class" "designer" development, you know the ones with the scantily clad models draped across the kitchen counters and all that. After all, they paid half a million euros for a one-bed shoebox in Darndale so they are entitled to a lifestyle corresponding to the price tag. They don't want the people who paid 100k for the same place or worse yet, renters *spit* moving in and bringing down the tone of the place with their bicycles and TV dishes and
laundry.

The bottom line is that all owners, regardless of what they paid or when, willingly signed up to these leases. Nobody forced them to. As such they are legally compelled to abide by the development rules, and to ensure that any tenants they have if they rent the unit out do likewise. A contract is a contract.

senordingdong

astrofool wrote: »

They can if it's part of the lease the landlord (and by extension, you) signed up for.

Aside from the actual legalties of who is allowed do what where and who get to determine this, why are this things an issue at all

No, the LL didn't tell us but that's an aside at this point.
I accept that these are the T&Cs that we signed up for but I feel like a bull in a china shop at this stage.

I've finally been given a copy of the house rules, and they are ****ing ridiculous. We are not allowed to have bbqs, fixtures, decorations, we're not even allowed to store household items on the balcony.

What bothers me is the legality of it, just because somebody threw it down on a lease doesn't mean it's right. How the hell can somebody other than the owner of the property exercise authority in this manner?

Marcusm

senordingdong wrote: »

No, the LL didn't tell us but that's an aside at this point.
I accept that these are the T&Cs that we signed up for but I feel like a bull in a china shop at this stage.

I've finally been given a copy of the house rules, and they are ****ing ridiculous. We are not allowed to have bbqs, fixtures, decorations, we're not even allowed to store household items on the balcony.

What bothers me is the legality of it, just because somebody threw it down on a lease doesn't mean it's right. How the hell can somebody other than the owner of the property exercise authority in this manner?

The lease is the agreement between the ultimate owner of the property (th freeholder) and the leaseholder/tenant. (You are presumably a sub lessee.). As such it was entered into freely and undoubtedly this clause, whether I think it's right r nt, has the force f law. The ultimate sanction for breaking it is forfeiture (loss/termination) of the lease.

The no clothes drying on balconies clause is fairly standard and, in my mind, is based on the sight of clothes drying on the balconies of local authority properties, which were the prevalent form of apartment living pre 2000. It's fairly shortsighted especially as it would have been possible to have sourced and fitted a discreet clothes drying fitting for all balconies and thereby permit dryin.

I find the no visible clothing indoors to be bizarre and arranged a variation if my lease in this regard; important for me as all my Walls are glass.

CiaranC

senordingdong wrote: »

What bothers me is the legality of it, just because somebody threw it down on a lease doesn't mean it's right. How the hell can somebody other than the owner of the property exercise authority in this manner?

As had been said before, the property owner doesnt own the balcony.

I have the same rules where I am and I think its a good idea. I wouldnt rent a gaff in a complex with people hanging out washing and storing old bikes and fridges and the like everywhere, it looks brutal.

athtrasna

senordingdong wrote: »

What bothers me is the legality of it, just because somebody threw it down on a lease doesn't mean it's right. How the hell can somebody other than the owner of the property exercise authority in this manner?

You've got it in one there. Because the Management Company is actually the owner of the property. Anyone "buying" an apartment is actually getting a long lease from the Management Company, in our case it's a 1,000 year lease.

The landlord is leasing the apartment from the Management Company (of which the LL is a member) and agreed to abide by those rules. The LL's lease is legally binding which is where your legality issue comes into it.

Anyone renting an apartment should check the development rules before committing to rent. There are some pretty standard things, but as you have found out, some developments have more extreme rules than others.

senordingdong

CiaranC wrote: »

I have the same rules where I am and I think its a good idea. I wouldnt rent a gaff in a complex with people hanging out washing and storing old bikes and fridges and the like everywhere, it looks brutal.

Well I think it's a bad idea. It's none of my business what somebody else puts on their balcony/garden, likewise it's nobodies business what I put on mine. (I realise it's not actually mine in this case)

I drive an S Class and the guy in the parking space next to me drives a fifteen year old, filthy, banger of a Micra. It's unsightly. It looks brutal and I don't want to have to look at the eyesore. Can I or the management company object and make him move it?

mikemac

senordingdong wrote: »

I drive an S Class and the guy in the parking space next to me drives a fifteen year old, filthy, banger of a Micra. It's unsightly. It looks brutal and I don't want to have to look at the eyesore. Can I or the management company object and make him move it?

I've read threads here about estates banning commerical vehicles.
Now buses and lorries I understand and agree with. Having said that there is a minibus in our estate and no issues at all, nobody cares.

But there have been threads where tradesmen with vans who end up getting nasty letters from the management company.
Ah but those are the rules and what you signed up for was a common response, much like this one
That Hiace or VW Transporter must lower the tone of the exclusive area :eek:

athtrasna

feelingstressed wrote: »

I've read threads here about estates banning commerical vehicles.
Now buses and lorries I understand and agree with. Having said that there is a minibus in our estate and no issues at all, nobody cares.

But there have been threads where tradesmen with vans who end up getting nasty letters from the management company.
Ah but those are the rules and what you signed up for was a common response, much like this one
That Hiace or VW Transporter must lower the tone of the exclusive area :eek:

Again the bottom line is these rules were set before the development went on sale. Nobody was forced to buy in a managed development. Whatever the reason for the rules, they are there and owners and their tenants are obliged to comply with them.

One of the issues with vans can be the size of them, and the potential to cause accidents by obscuring the view for other vehicles. We have a lot of corners in our car park and I suspect that is partly the reason for the no commercial vehicles rule here...although it can sometimes form part of the planning permission for a development.

not even wrong

athtrasna wrote: »

Again the bottom line is these rules were set before the development went on sale. Nobody was forced to buy in a managed development. Whatever the reason for the rules, they are there and owners and their tenants are obliged to comply with them.

Just because the rule exists doesn't mean it's not a stupid rule.

Nobody is disputing that the management company has the legal right to enforce its rules, but it's you who is defending them peeking in through my window in search of illicit clothes-horses.

athtrasna

I don't peek in through anybody's windows..alot of our units have large bay windows and one in particular has no blinds or curtains and had three clothes horses set up inside those windows 24/7 - given the position of that apartment you'd drive into the development and they were right in front of you, impossible to miss. So I was not upset that the MA enforced the rule on that occasion.

I didn't make the rules, I am just glad that our MA enforces the rules I signed up to. Big difference. And I would support any MA that's proactive enough to enforce the rules of a development.

Duckjob

not even wrong wrote: »

Now this just takes the biscuit. What kind of little Hitler would you have to be to want such a rule enforced?

I think the problem is that many apartment owners have delusions of grandeur
-- they still believe the sales brochure from 2006 that they're living in an "upmarket" "sophisticated" "high-class" "designer" development, you know the ones with the scantily clad models draped across the kitchen counters and all that. After all, they paid half a million euros for a one-bed shoebox in Darndale so they are entitled to a lifestyle corresponding to the price tag. They don't want the people who paid 100k for the same place or worse yet, renters *spit* moving in and bringing down the tone of the place with their bicycles and TV dishes and laundry.

Nail on the head there I'd say.

senordingdong

athtrasna wrote: »

one in particular has no blinds or curtains and had three clothes horses set up inside those windows 24/7 - given the position of that apartment you'd drive into the development and they were right in front of you, impossible to miss. So I was not upset that the MA enforced the rule on that occasion.

Are you seriously upset by that?
Have you not considered that since the management company won't allow them to dry their clothes out doors they had nowhere else to put them but inside the window.

CiaranC

senordingdong wrote: »

Well I think it's a bad idea. It's none of my business what somebody else puts on their balcony/garden, likewise it's nobodies business what I put on mine. (I realise it's not actually mine in this case)

I drive an S Class and the guy in the parking space next to me drives a fifteen year old, filthy, banger of a Micra. It's unsightly. It looks brutal and I don't want to have to look at the eyesore. Can I or the management company object and make him move it?

Probably not, no. Unless its a danger or is derelict etc.

If you are happy to have people hanging out their knickers and bedsheets, storing broken down appliances and hanging tacky satellite dishes in common areas and balconies there are loads of flat complexes in Dublin which can accommodate you. The rent is dirt cheap also. Leave the rest of us to live in apartments which try and maintain a nice standard for all their residents. Its not snobbishness to want to have aesthetically nice surroundings where you live, its conducive to a better quality of life.

alfa beta

am I the only person who read the thread title and thought this was something about nudism?