Update on case that could wipe out Ireland's Hare Coursing Club

TippFan77

Judgment in the case of Irish Coursing Club v Greenband investments is due to be delivered on Wednesday, March 9th.

All animal welfare groups should have an interest in this because the ICC is expected to be saddled with a massive bill for damages and costs and this could spell the end for the governing body of live hare coursing in Ireland.

For anyone interested, the case is open to the public and will be heard in the High Court (justice Frank Clarke presiding) on Wednesday March 9th.

Several animal welfare campaigners and anti-hare coursing people will be there so you'll be in good company!

joyce2009

the sooner the better as far as i'm concerned:D

Sigma Force

It would be great, a step in the right direction. No doubt there'll still be people doing it on the sly especially as we haven't enough welfare officers in this country.

Discodog

Oh dear I desperately hope that there is not any kind of protest or barracking. The Judge has to & will judge this on the legal merits & not on the morals of coursing. Any protest may annoy the Judge into making a pro coursing decision or finding in favour of Greenband but only awarding small damages.

For once I would urge any protesters to stay away.

Cherry Blossom

Discodog wrote: »

For once I would urge any protesters to stay away.

+1 This case has nothing whatsoever to do with coursing or it's legal status, I would even question API being the appropriate forum for discussion about it.

TippFan77

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

+1 This case has nothing whatsoever to do with coursing or it's legal status, I would even question API being the appropriate forum for discussion about it.

You are of course correct when you say the case is not about the rights or wrongs of hare coursing itself, but animal welfare people are taking a huge interest in it because of its possible implications for the continued practise of hare coursing.

If the ICC is taken out of the equation, hare coursing is automatically affected. So you can see why opponents of the cruelty are so tuned in to this.

It's open to the public. It's at the Four Courts...Mr. Justice Frank Clarke presiding...starts at 11 am.

No protests of course, as the previous contributer advised, but an interesting case to observe.

Cherry Blossom

If the ICC is taken out of the equation it is most likely these 'events' will continue anway, there is every probability that they will be organised and run by less desirable folks in which case it really would be a sad day not just for coursing but for the Irish hare.

Wolfe Tone

Discodog wrote: »

Oh dear I desperately hope that there is not any kind of protest or barracking. The Judge has to & will judge this on the legal merits & not on the morals of coursing. Any protest may annoy the Judge into making a pro coursing decision or finding in favour of Greenband but only awarding small damages.

For once I would urge any protesters to stay away.

Yes the judge will be swayed by a handful of people with placards, I really dont think so

TippFan77

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

If the ICC is taken out of the equation it is most likely these 'events' will continue anway, there is every probability that they will be organised and run by less desirable folks in which case it really would be a sad day not just for coursing but for the Irish hare.

The ICC's demise would weaken the coursing clubs, but naturally legislation would still be needed to finish them off and give real protection to the hare.

Cherry Blossom

TippFan77 wrote: »

The ICC's demise would weaken the coursing clubs, but naturally legislation would still be needed to finish them off and give real protection to the hare.

This is just one senario of what 'could' happen and a very unlikely one in my honest opinion. Realisticly in the country's current economic state and under the new 'diverse' government I don't forsee any changes in animal legislation any time in the next decade tbh. At least the ICC provides some sort of regulation at present.

Sigma Force wrote: »

No doubt there'll still be people doing it on the sly especially as we haven't enough welfare officers in this country.

No-one has any need to do it 'on the sly', it will still be perfectly legal.

Discodog

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

Yes the judge will be swayed by a handful of people with placards, I really dont think so

If you have been in Court as many times as I have you would know that Judges can & are influenced. It could also turn an appeal into a Pro/Anti debate with only one winner.

IrishHomer

So any news of this or was case put back?

dahat

THURSDAY, MARCH 10, 2011
THE Irish Coursing Club (ICC) has been ordered to pay €640,000 in damages to a private firm and could face further costs after a court case relating to a disputed land deal next to its grounds.

Mr Justice Frank Clarke announced the verdict at the commercial court yesterday as part of a long-standing case taken by developer company Greenband Investments.

The move potentially places a question mark over the financial stability of the Irish Coursing Club, with a trustee of the group previously stating substantial costs arising from the case could have "a major effect on the club".

Mr Justice Clarke awarded the damages to the private firm during a hearing yesterday and is due to provide a written verdict on the case and a relating issue today.

While the €640,000 expense is a fraction of the original €5.9 million claim, a decision on further costs to be awarded will not be made until another hearing planned for March 30.

The case, which was originally taken against the ICC in June 2008, relates to the coursing organisation’s interest in land next to its Powerstown Park stadium premises in Clonmel, Co Tipperary.

Greenband Investments sued the ICC to compel it to complete the sale of part of the lane way after claiming its €31m retail development would be jeopardised if this did not take place.

It claimed it made a written agreement with the ICC trustees in March 2008 to buy the lands for a sum of €100,000 and had paid a deposit of €10,000.

Greenband Investments claimed the ICC was aware at all times the purchase of the lands was part of a larger scheme of development by the private firm.

While the ICC had previously been told it would have to pay damages as a result of the dispute, the exact cost was not made clear until yesterday’s commercial court hearing.

In a statement responding to the news, the ICC said it needed to discuss the verdict with its members.

"The original claim was €5.9 million. Now that we know the damages we will be in a position to consider our position.

"We will meet our senior counsel and review the judgment and, of course, we will also report to our members before we decide what our next step will be," the statement read.

TippFan77

dahat wrote: »

THURSDAY, MARCH 10, 2011
THE Irish Coursing Club (ICC) has been ordered to pay €640,000 in damages to a private firm and could face further costs after a court case relating to a disputed land deal next to its grounds.

Mr Justice Frank Clarke announced the verdict at the commercial court yesterday as part of a long-standing case taken by developer company Greenband Investments.

The move potentially places a question mark over the financial stability of the Irish Coursing Club, with a trustee of the group previously stating substantial costs arising from the case could have "a major effect on the club".

Mr Justice Clarke awarded the damages to the private firm during a hearing yesterday and is due to provide a written verdict on the case and a relating issue today.

While the €640,000 expense is a fraction of the original €5.9 million claim, a decision on further costs to be awarded will not be made until another hearing planned for March 30.

The case, which was originally taken against the ICC in June 2008, relates to the coursing organisation’s interest in land next to its Powerstown Park stadium premises in Clonmel, Co Tipperary.

Greenband Investments sued the ICC to compel it to complete the sale of part of the lane way after claiming its €31m retail development would be jeopardised if this did not take place.

It claimed it made a written agreement with the ICC trustees in March 2008 to buy the lands for a sum of €100,000 and had paid a deposit of €10,000.

Greenband Investments claimed the ICC was aware at all times the purchase of the lands was part of a larger scheme of development by the private firm.

While the ICC had previously been told it would have to pay damages as a result of the dispute, the exact cost was not made clear until yesterday’s commercial court hearing.

In a statement responding to the news, the ICC said it needed to discuss the verdict with its members.

"The original claim was €5.9 million. Now that we know the damages we will be in a position to consider our position.

"We will meet our senior counsel and review the judgment and, of course, we will also report to our members before we decide what our next step will be," the statement read.

A far bigger and happier day for animal welfare in Ireland will be March 30th: that's when the judge will awards costs. These will three or four times greater than the damages awarded.

Bring it one, I say!

RE "regulation" of hare coursing, what utter nonsense. You could make the defence of cockfighting or badger baiting.

Both Labour and FG have promised to update animal welfare legislation. Exempting hare coursing and foxhunting from this process (due to powerful arm-twisting by wealthy hunt fans) will be seen for the sham it will be.

Why should a man or boy who kicks a dog or neglects to feed cattle or sheep be prosecuted and a coursing club thug who terrorises hares for kicks be deemed a respectable citizen?

Answer: one has deep pockets and is politicaly well-connected while the other doesn't promote his act of cruelty as a "sport".

Think I'm being unfair to the nice coursing set?

Have a look at the evidence:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/icabs/sets/72157624180875760/

Cherry Blossom

OP, I'm confused by your last post, I don't see any posts on this thread in support of hare-courseing, the post you have quoted is just an account of what happened with this case at court which I thought is what this thread was about. I have no interest in viewing any graphic images and don't see the necessity in posting them on a thread I thought was about how a commercial court case may affect a bloodsport.

Cock-fighting and badger baiting are illegal, I have no idea what the purpose is of the reference to these in your post.

Can you please clarify why you started this thread? Perhaps a broader title would have suited better if it was to address the legal position of coursing in general.

dahat

Seems the OP has derailed his own thread,seems to be ranting a bit off topic.

This was a thread on alegal matter not on the rights and wrongs of hare coursing,there is other threads discussing these matters.
I wonder has he posted in the wrong forum...

Your link has been posted many times,people are well aware of the these pictures and they have also been discussed in detail.

Discodog

I feel the OP's frustration that we have to rely on Civil legal cases to reduce Coursing - bit like Al Capone !.

dahat

Discodog wrote: »

I feel the OP's frustration that we have to rely on Civil legal cases to reduce Coursing - bit like Al Capone !.

Hopefully the OP will see that wishing financial ruin upon an organisation is no way to achieve the end result he so desires,have a feeling the end cost will be not the figure he thinks.
Coursing remains strong in this country and will do for a while longer i think.
Field coursing may well suffer from urban areas expanding towards the countryside but park coursing will i think be around for a long time,no matter what the result of this case

Discodog

Well I would share the OP's views, in that any financial penalty & cost to the ICC has to be a good thing. Also the case has shown that the ICC are prepared to lie & lack judgement. They were warned that their case was hopeless but their arrogance made them continue. Anything that damages the credibility of the ICC is a good thing.

Ireland will come under a lot of international pressure over Coursing & Animal Welfare. Any protests in London regarding the export of Greyhounds will hurt tourism & thanks to the net, potential foreign visitors are becoming aware of our record. As Greyhound racing dies out in the UK attention will focus on Ireland.

dahat

Discodog wrote: »

As Greyhound racing dies out in the UK attention will focus on Ireland.

Don't know much about the UK scene but greyhound racing seems popular over there.
I know they have banned live hare coursing but in general the sport seems strong and hardly likely to die out anytime soon.
The ICC are not exactly popular outside the sport and the higher echelons of society,it is this society that will offer the most protection to the board as they have people in the right places so to speak.This is just the way it works at the top.
As for welfare of the hare the regulations in place are as good as can be done i think.I am not so blind not to see how it can be seen as a cruel to some but the answers are not there to keep all happy.The sport will die it is just a matter of when,my own opinion is 12-15 years as technology generation comes on stream and old country ways and sports eventually die out.This will occur across many areas and i for one fear for the old ways and habv=its of ours and past generations,long lost to vast urban areas everywhere..............

sensibleken

Discodog wrote: »

Well I would share the OP's views, in that any financial penalty & cost to the ICC has to be a good thing. Also the case has shown that the ICC are prepared to lie & lack judgement. They were warned that their case was hopeless but their arrogance made them continue. Anything that damages the credibility of the ICC is a good thing.

Ireland will come under a lot of international pressure over Coursing & Animal Welfare. Any protests in London regarding the export of Greyhounds will hurt tourism & thanks to the net, potential foreign visitors are becoming aware of our record. As Greyhound racing dies out in the UK attention will focus on Ireland.

There was an article in one of the Sunday papers last week about Bord na gCon exporting greyhounds to China. Made my blood boil!

The amount of irish greyhounds that populate British rescues is horrendous. Another example of us exporting our problems to our nearest neighbour

Discodog

dahat wrote: »

Don't know much about the UK scene but greyhound racing seems popular over there.
I know they have banned live hare coursing but in general the sport seems strong and hardly likely to die out anytime soon.

A quick google will show that tracks are closing in the UK. There are dozens of UK welfare groups opposing racing but only a couple here. Peaceful protest is very effective. Once people become aware of the cost of racing, for example 10,000 dead dogs on one UK farm, they realise that Greyhound racing is unacceptable. The Dara O' Briain episode had no effect here but there were protests at many of his UK gigs.

One of the reasons that the IGB is looking to China is because they know that UK racing will die out. The consequences of Irish Greyhound racing, Hare Coursing, Stag hunts & our stray dog & horse problems were relatively unknown until the expansion of the internet. Now our horses are in the New York Times & on Al Jazeera. If FG try to reintroduce Stag hunting it will be big news - no one ever introduces pro-cruelty legislation.

Why would foreign animal lovers want to visit or holiday in a country that doesn't care about animal welfare ?.

homerhop

Discodog wrote: »

Why would foreign animal lovers want to visit or holiday in a country that doesn't care about animal welfare ?.

So people who love animals wouldnt dream of going on a sun holiday to Spain after all there is the bullfighting there, or Canada since they cull seals and they would never dream of going to see the great wall of China since they do terrible things to animals there?
You must have a lot of sleepless nights stressing about living in and contributing to a country that has such terrible laws and attituded to animals.

sensibleken

homerhop wrote: »

So people who love animals wouldnt dream of going on a sun holiday to Spain after all there is the bullfighting there, or Canada since they cull seals and they would never dream of going to see the great wall of China since they do terrible things to animals there?

they could go to catalunya as theyve outlawed bull fighting. I wouldnt go to chine personally for many ethical reasons. The seal thing I dont know enough to comment.

homerhop

sensibleken wrote: »

they could go to catalunya as theyve outlawed bull fighting. I wouldnt go to chine personally for many ethical reasons. The seal thing I dont know enough to comment.

Last time I checked Catalunya is still part of Spain, or do we just get tourists to visit counties in Ireland now that have better animal shelters than others?

Discodog

homerhop wrote: »

So people who love animals wouldnt dream of going on a sun holiday to Spain after all there is the bullfighting there, or Canada since they cull seals and they would never dream of going to see the great wall of China since they do terrible things to animals there?

The difference is that the UK is our major tourist supplier. Many UK tourists come here because it's easy for them to bring their dog & the majority will be animal lovers. Most are or were unaware of our record but that is changing. Most of our European neighbours are also becoming aware of the situation here - many Irish strays end up in European rescues & even the "Hare video" was shot by a foreign tourist.

homerhop wrote: »

or do we just get tourists to visit counties in Ireland now that have better animal shelters than others?

Just because an area has better shelters it doesn't mean that there are less unwanted animals. The Irish are perceived as not caring & happy to let other people deal with their strays.

It is all about awareness & Ireland cannot hide any longer.

sensibleken

homerhop wrote: »

Last time I checked Catalunya is still part of Spain, or do we just get tourists to visit counties in Ireland now that have better animal shelters than others?

The political position of catalunya is not the same as Irish counties. Catalunys is a 'autonomous comunity' with its own laws and parliament

Discodog

sensibleken wrote: »

The political position of catalunya is not the same as Irish counties. Catalunys is a 'autonomous comunity' with its own laws and parliament

Don't tell a Catalunian that he is Spanish :eek:

He will tell you that he is Catalan.

sensibleken

Discodog wrote: »

Don't tell a Catalunian that he is Spanish :eek:

He will tell you that he is Catalan.

tell that to homerhop

Cherry Blossom

Discodog wrote: »

The difference is that the UK is our major tourist supplier. Many UK tourists come here because it's easy for them to bring their dog & the majority will be animal lovers.

And a certain sect are comming in hoards from the UK solely for the purpose of engaging in and watching sports that have now been banned in the UK Would you really punish the majority population of a country (because we are all affected by the economic value of the tourism industry of the country) because of the ethics of certain niche groups and/or failure of the government to run the country effectively, especially one that is a relatively young country politically speaking? There are certain places on the planet I would like to vist sometime in my lifetime and should the opportunity ever arise nothing outside of my own personal circumstances will stop me from doing so.

There is a lot more to ethics than animal welfare, there are plenty of other moral issues that people won't consider when choosing a holiday destination (how are children treated there? the environment? and so on), please do let us all know if anyone discovers this utopian paradise because I will add it to my list of places to see before I die.

homerhop

sensibleken wrote: »

tell that to homerhop

Spain's Constitutional Court assessed the disputed articles and on 28 June 2010, issued its judgment on the principal allegation of unconstitutionality presented by the People's Party in 2006. The judgment granted clear passage to 182 articles of the 223 that make up the fundamental text. The court approved 73 of the 114 articles that the People's Party had contested, while declaring 14 articles unconstitutional in whole or in part and imposing a restrictive interpretation on 27 others.The court accepted the specific provision that described Catalonia as a "nation", however ruled that it was a historical and cultural term with no legal weight, and that Spain remained the only nation recognised by the constitution.

Untill it is recognised internationally as an independant country it is still part of Spain no matter how the locals see themselves.