The question of Spikes soul

nyarlothothep

I don't get it, Spike displayed very humane emotions before acquiring a soul, like loving Buffy, grieving after she got killed at the end of Season 5, feeling ashamed about the Buffybot and protecting Dawn even if it meant getting badly beaten by Glory. All these actions would indicate that he had a conscience. Data in Star Trek TNG didn't have emotions until he got the emotion chip yet there were many an episode where he did display muted hues of feeling, otherwise the character wouldn't be interesting to watch. In the same way I posit that Spike actually had a soul though in the narrative/plot sense he didn't until he went off and got one.

Sudden Valley

I'm not sure they ever defined what having a soul meant. I thought it was something to do with feeling guilt, since it was obvious even from season 1 (and even from the flashbacks to olden times in subsequent seasons) that vampires showed a range of human emotions like love and hate. I thought the only change in souled spike was that he felt guilt.

nyarlothothep

But then why would he go to such lengths to protect Dawn if he didn't expect to feel guilty from not doing so? I think he said that he wouldn't be able to live with himself if he revealed her location to Glory when Buffy visited him in the crypt? Or maybe it was all part of an elaborate plan to win Buffy's affections?

Sudden Valley

Perhaps it was something to do with the chip? Though they seemed to establish that his affection for Buffy was there before he had the chip (well according to Drusilla anyway, in a flashback). I don't think they showed vampires having anything but distain for humans in either the Buffy or Angel series so perhaps Spike was always unusual for a vampire and it was nothing to do if he had a soul or not. I think the writers realised they'd gone tooo far in changing spike so had him attack Buffy at the end of season 6.

nyarlothothep

I thought that was a major screw up in season 6, given that they had already changed him, they should have stuck to it rather than trying to ruin the character in the worst possible way.

iguana

I never really thought he attacked Buffy at the end of season 6. The whole "rape" thing confused me. Under any other circumstances what he did was attempt to rape her, but their entire sexual relationship was physically violent. They almost always have a punch up before sex as for Buffy it was a self-loathing type of pleasure. Spike isn't a bloody mind reader, he didn't know Buffy had stopped hating herself. He tried to initiate a sexual encounter of the type Buffy had always willing participated in, the instant he realised she was not into it he stopped.

The whole soul thing, I think was a capability of empathy toward humans in general, but other than that they were still basically the same person they used to be. As a human Spike wanted to please those he loved, Cecilly, his mother. That didn't change as vampire, he wanted to please Druscilla and eventually Buffy. Dru wanted him to be cruel and more like Angelus, so he did what she wanted as he didn't have the empathy to make him care about who he killed. When he decided he wanted Buffy he became more what he thought she would want, but without a soul he couldn't do it properly because he just didn't care about anyone outside of his circle as he lacked the empathy.

Sudden Valley

As you say, their relationship was quite a violent one. Perhaps that was why Buffy was quick to forgive him, while the rest of the gang not fully understanding the nature of their relationship referred to it as an attempted rape. They were broken up for a while before the incident and she never indicated that was interested after they had broke and especially in that scene.

I don’t get what Angel motivation was then, as a vampire or a human. Human angel- seemed to get on well with his family apart from his dad but as a vampire the first thing he does is kill his sister(s) and mother? The whole vampires reflecting parts of their human seems a bit muddy.

Mr.Nice Guy

Sudden Valley wrote: »

I don’t get what Angel motivation was then, as a vampire or a human. Human angel- seemed to get on well with his family apart from his dad but as a vampire the first thing he does is kill his sister(s) and mother? The whole vampires reflecting parts of their human seems a bit muddy.

If I remember correctly he killed his sister and mother to inflict even more pain on his father. Wasn't his father left until last? Also didn't he try something similar with Holtz? Been a while since I watched so I'm not 100% on the details.

In regards to Spike, I never liked his behaviour prior to getting his soul. It didn't seem to add up and he seemed to possess far too much emotion. Didn't he cry on one occasion (maybe Buffy's death?).

Sudden Valley

Yeah he did kill the rest of his family before confronting his father, and the same with Holtz. His hatred for his father was obviously his overiding emotion as a human.

They did show that vampires did feel sadness and regret and not just spike -Drusilla definitely seemed to be as emotional. Darla showed regret to Lindsey after sleeping with Angel.