Pennant seeks ROI Call-up

smokedeels

I don't rate him, but as others have pointed out he'd be a good player compared to what we have.

I understand he's making a career move and has no connection to Ireland but as a piece of business that could be mutually beneficial I don't see a problem.

Hank Scorpio

This wouldn't feel right imo

Orizio

doncarlos wrote: »

I'd rather have an Irish lad in there than someone with a loose connection to the country.

Nationalist nonsense. Soccer is a truly international and progressive sport that should not be held back by xenophobic and small-minded thoughts of nationality when choosing players for one's national team. Rather we should judge these things completely on talent, and Jermaine is far more talented then 99% of the current Irish squad. Let him play.

Het-Field

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

You dont support any tean then do you?

Your location articulates your blind loyalty to players who have let Ireland down at some point or another.

I never supported Keane or McCarthy at that World Cup. However, Keane should have gritted his teeth, played for his country, and returned home with his complaints (which were certainly valid). However, he turned his back on his country on a point of principle. He was even given the opportunity to return, but failed to do so, leaving Ireland without its captain, most influential player, and with a 23 man squad.

Ireland is an unprofessional joker, who cant let sleeping dogs lie. The man has been out of the international scene for almost 4 years, yet he likes to revisit it to insult it, and denegrade it.

Of course I support the Irish team. But I see the wood from the trees. The argument advanced by some on this website is a claim that only Irish-men can be proud of playing international football while in the Green Jersey. It was discovered that Ray Houghton was eligible by accident, purely down to the "Granny Rule". He even claimed after his famous goal in Stuttgart that he wished he had done the same in a Scottish shirt. I dont think any Irish man would ever suggest that we would be better off without him, or that he never represented Ireland with pride.. The same applies to Andy Townsend. Aldridge was also the product of much investigation. Tony Cascarino even called himself a fraud. Either way, they all contributed to Irish footballing success. It is irrefutable evidence that even the "plastic Paddy" can play with pride.

Het-Field

stovelid wrote: »

There is obviously a difference between 1st/2nd/3rd generation Irish only ever wanting to play for Ireland and somebody selecting as a back-up option when they don't make the grade for another nation.

For example, I was born to Irish parents in England and moved here at 11. If I was a footballer, I wouldn't dream of choosing England over Ireland and I think that's the difference between some of the players that have come in under the granny rule and people like Pennant.

What is the difference between Pennant, and the likes of Townsend, Cascarino, Houghton and Aldridge ?

aidan24326

Orizio wrote: »

Nationalist nonsense. Soccer is a truly international and progressive sport that should not be held back by xenophobic and small-minded thoughts of nationality when choosing players for one's national team. Rather we should judge these things completely on talent, and Jermaine is far more talented then 99% of the current Irish squad. Let him play.

That part in bold is wrong just for starters. He's a decent player but has done little to deserve that sort of over-the-top praise. He's better than some of what we have but that's all (and let's be honest that isn't in itself saying a lot).

And wanting the Irish squad to be populated with players who identify as Irish or at least partly Irish is not 'nationalist nonsense', it's the whole point of having a national team.

Bounty Hunter

Im not quite sure why but i did have an *ugh* moment when i read it was Pennant looking to get a call up even though I'd usually be in favour of if they are eligable/good enough they should get the call.

Ireland is clearly his second choice and I have to admit I dont like that in a potential Ireland player. If he was picked however I would have no problem with that as he is eligable, having Irish grandparents and has chosen to pursue getting a call personally while potentially being good enough to improve atleast the Irish squad.

I never understand the "plastic paddy" arguement for people not wanting the 2nd/3rd generation Irish internationals to get the call, because to put it simply thems are the rules. Maybe you think the rule should be only 1st generation Irish nationals should be eligable or something but as things stand we would simply be putting ourselves at a disadvantage if we didnt pick such players. Most other nations do so and it's normally like in Irelands case with English players involving nationalities that have long historical ties to the other country. Deco is Brazillian for example not portugese and many of the French stars that won world and euro honours for example were African iirc.

One thing that worries me about this though is that all these stories seem to be coming from sources outside of the FAI's own recuitment facets. (big surprise i know but) Dunne got Clark on board, many seem to think Stearman was influenced by his manager or some of his team mates, while O'Hara/Pennant seem to be bringing up the issue themselves via the media/agents.

SantryRed

Hate this thread. I hate people who say that because he didn't say he'd play for Ireland from 22/23 then he shouldn't be considered. That's because he was good enough to be near the England team at the time! Whereas fcuking Kilbane and the likes were never, ever going to be good enough for England. No difference whatsoever.

Xavi6

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Says you. If you are happy for the national side to be full of foreigners who don't really want to be there, but are technically available for selection, good for you. Dust off your leprechaun suit and bore the world with stories of how we are the best fans in the world (tm).

I didn't realise the leprechaun suit and accepting eligible players went hand in hand.

Some of us have a longer view about the development of the game, and journeymen who have no affiliation with Ireland stifle it. This puts the entire grassroots elite coaching under jeprody. Why will the FAI pay millions to coach the best young Irish talent if Trapp is just going to select non-Irish talent?

So you'll accept foreign players to the national league at the expense of someone in a youth team but shout down an eligible player wanting to represent the national side for the same reason.

Double standards.

Sir Gallagher

Orizio wrote: »

Nationalist nonsense. Soccer is a truly international and progressive sport that should not be held back by xenophobic and small-minded thoughts of nationality when choosing players for one's national team. Rather we should judge these things completely on talent, and Jermaine is far more talented then 99% of the current Irish squad. Let him play.

What a strange post. If that's your logic there's no point at all in having national teams?

smokedeels

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Says you. If you are happy for the national side to be full of foreigners who don't really want to be there

They wouldn't declare if they "didn't want to be there"

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Trapp is just going to select non-Irish talent?

Trapp isn't Irish - he's doing his job; to make the Irish National Team as successful as possible with the players he has available.

OhNoYouDidn't

Orizio wrote: »

Nationalist nonsense. Soccer is a truly international and progressive sport that should not be held back by xenophobic and small-minded thoughts of nationality when choosing players for one's national team. Rather we should judge these things completely on talent, and Jermaine is far more talented then 99% of the current Irish squad. Let him play.

Ehhh, do you want to read back that to yourself?

Nationality shouldn't be a criteria when picking players for national sides?

Is that not what club football is?

Het-Field

smokedeels wrote: »

They wouldn't declare if they "didn't want to be there"



Trapp isn't Irish - he's doing his job; to make the Irish National Team as successful as possible with the players he has available.

Im also amazed that ONYD seems capable of seeing into the mind's eye of these players and speaking for them in terms of their attitudes towards our national team. Sorry, but there is no evidence that they dont want to be here. He is making a baseless assumption.

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Ehhh, do you want to read back that to yourself?

Nationality shouldn't be a criteria when picking players for national sides?

Is that not what club football is?

In fairness he did qualify his use of the word "Nationality", witht he words "small minded" and "xenophobic"

Royale with Cheese

The granny rule is a joke anyway. If you have Irish parents then fair enough, I can fully understand how you'd feel Irish (or at least somewhat Irish) and would have a right to represent the Irish national team should you want to.

One of my parents is Welsh and I've always felt partially Welsh. However if one of my grandparents happened to be English, French, etc. I wouldn't give a toss. I'd have no interest in representing that nation other than to serve my own goals.

OhNoYouDidn't

Xavi6 wrote: »

I didn't realise the leprechaun suit and accepting eligible players went hand in hand.

No, but their is an element of 'the craic' about a lot of the posts. The team should mean something, represent the country and inspire the kids to achieve that standard.

Kevin Doyle of Jermaine Pennant? Which would we want our kids to aspire to be? A kid who worked his way up the LoI chain and got a big move overseas where he is considered a model pro or a spoilt brat who leaves Ferrari's in airport carparks and declares for another country at 28?

Xavi6 wrote: »

So you'll accept foreign players to the national league at the expense of someone in a youth team but shout down an eligible player wanting to represent the national side for the same reason.

Double standards.

You have had your arse handed to you on this. Gary Twigg was bought because we have no young players of the standard he is. That is what clubs do. Fill talent gaps with purchases. ITs part of the global nature of the game.

International sides really aren't supposed to 'purchase' talent from overseas. They are supposed to develop and nurture it. And ironically, we are doing that better than we ever have before. And when we finally are producing players at home good enough to compete with the best, Trapp regresses to the granny rule. With dross like Greene and Westwood as well.

I know its a cliche, and I know its old fashioned, but this kind of nonsense fundamentally cheapens the jersey and what it should represent.

OhNoYouDidn't

Het-Field wrote: »

Im also amazed that ONYD seems capable of seeing into the mind's eye of these players and speaking for them in terms of their attitudes towards our national team. Sorry, but there is no evidence that they dont want to be here. He is making a baseless assumption.

How is it baseless? They guy said he was interested in Ireland because at 28 he has realised that England won't come calling.

No-one is disputing its his plan B. The question is should we swallow that and accept him or not.

Orizio

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

What a strange post. If that's your logic there's no point at all in having national teams?

Well pretty much exactly. Soccer needs to lead the way - we live in a truly international world in which culture, tradition and beliefs of all peoples intermingle almost constantly, a world in which antiquated ideas like 'nationality' and 'patriotism' are superficial and little more then excuses to bash 'foreigners'.

As such, teams based around national lines are superficial and increasingly at odds with the world around us. Ideally we should get rid of naitonal teams altogether; but as some people are not progressive enough for this quite yet, although I do believe the highly educated soccer masses will accept and agree with my argument eventually, we should base 'national' team choices completely on talent and enthusiasm to dilute the backwards nationalist element.

Jayob10

Royale with Cheese wrote: »

The granny rule is a joke anyway. If you have Irish parents then fair enough, I can fully understand how you'd feel Irish (or at least somewhat Irish) and would have a right to represent the Irish national team should you want to.

One of my parents is Welsh and I've always felt partially Welsh. However if one of my grandparents happened to be English, French, etc. I wouldn't give a toss. I'd have no interest in representing that nation other than to serve my own goals.

Thats good for you then isn't it. I feel entirely different in relation to my grandparents nationality.

My view on this is that if a player improves our team or would be an addition to our squad then I have no problem. Technically they are perfectly entitled to represent us. A manager will get a look at players within the set up and if a "plastic paddy" has the wrong attitude then they will not last long in our set up.

Players like O'Hara and Pennant would definately improve our squad. Pennant is a vastly superior player to Liam Lawrence for example, may not have a better attitude and as I said before he would be weeded out if that was the case. Nothing wrong with a call up and a cap for him to have a look.
Lets be clear about it here, Lawrence is only playing for Ireland because he knew his level and we were his level as opposed to England where he hadn't a snowballs chance in hell.

Aldo was at oxford united when he got called up, he had damn all ties to ireland bar a grandmother in the midlands where he has never been to visit. Don't kid yourself that some of these guys feel more loyalty to us, circumstances at the time dictated their decision to play for us.
Matt Holland is another, declared for us late and never let us down, was a tremendous addition. There are benefits of guys in that age bracket declaring late in that by that stage they are usually seasoned and experienced pros.

I'd explore everyone of these granny rule options, make enquiries but never chase someone. Make them aware of their options and if they declare (which Pennant has done on his own accord) then we should use these options. Hell, even if it means capping a guy once and if things don't work out then no harm done.

Keith Fahey's name keeps popping up, my response to this is that if Fahey is a better player than any of these blow in's then he will play. If not then tough, but we will have a better team for it.

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

How is it baseless? They guy said he was interested in Ireland because at 28 he has realised that England won't come calling.

No-one is disputing its his plan B. The question is should we swallow that and accept him or not.

How can you say he doesnt want to be here ? Are you Pennant ? Can you speak for him ?

No, you are simply drawing inferences about his mindset. Either way, he clearly wants to be here more then the likes of Ireland. Plus, you cant be waffling on about cheapening the jersey, when those who have cheapened it the most are born and bred Irishmen.

OhNoYouDidn't

Orizio wrote: »

Well pretty much exactly. Soccer needs to lead the way - we live in a truly international world in which culture, tradition and beliefs of all peoples intermingle almost constantly, a world in which antiquated ideas like 'nationality' and 'patriotism' are superficial and little more then excuses to bash 'foreigners'.

As such, teams based around national lines are superficial and increasingly at odds with the world around us. Ideally we should get rid of naitonal teams altogether; but as some people are not progressive enough for this quite yet, although I do believe the highly educated soccer masses will accept and agree my argument eventually, we should base national team choices completely on talent and enthusiasm.

They are called clubs. The best talent goes to the biggest clubs for the most money.

Ironically, more integration has happened over international football than most other things in the world. People come back from world cups with email addresses and phone numbers from the 4 corners of the globe.

Although, its clear your rant is a pop at football from one of our rugby betters. Do you want the 6 nations abolished? Didn't think so.

OhNoYouDidn't

Het-Field wrote: »

How can you say he doesnt want to be here ? Are you Pennant ? Can you speak for him ?

No, you are simply drawing inferences about his mindset. Either way, he clearly wants to be here more then the likes of Ireland. Plus, you cant be waffling on about cheapening the jersey, when those who have cheapened it the most are born and bred Irishmen.

Stephen Ireland is a mutant. He isn't the benchmark for anything.

Can I suggest you go away and read the actual article. When you have done that, let me know if you think that he has always wanted to play for us, or sees this as a good carreer move as he heads to the twilight of his playing days.

Only upside to this is that I might find an abandoned supercar somewhere in town.

Seaneh

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Rabble, rabble, dey tuk ower jerbs/squad spot rabble rabble, patriot, rabble, ole ole, rabble rabble, barstool, rabble LOI, rabble rabble rabble, etc.

Another quality rant from ohfeckhesoffagain...

OhNoYouDidn't

Seaneh wrote: »

Another quality rant from ohfeckhesoffagain...

And you are back again with your usual empty post.

Grownups are talking. If you have nothing to add. Etc. You know the script, you hear it a couple of times a week.

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Stephen Ireland is a mutant. He isn't the benchmark for anything.

Can I suggest you go away and read the actual article. When you have done that, let me know if you think that he has always wanted to play for us, or sees this as a good carreer move as he heads to the twilight of his playing days.

Only upside to this is that I might find an abandoned supercar somewhere in town.

Sorry. You cannot call Ireland a "mutant" and claim he is not a benchmark for anything. That is a cop-out of the highest order. Is Ireland not one of those who prefers to denegrade the jersey over actually engaging with it, and utilising his great talent for the benefit of the Irish nation ?

I read the article, I am the OP. I would also point that I am, and have stated that I am not keen on his rhetoric. But where does it say that he doesnt want to be here ?

Orizio

They are called clubs. The best talent goes to the biggest clubs for the most money.

Exactly - clubs are the ideal mutli-cultural entities to bring soccer into a truly multi-cultural world. National teams are a blight on the soccer landscape by comparison and simply drag soccer's otherwise impeccable reputation down through nationalist and backwards sentiment.

Ironically, more integration has happened over international football than most other things in the world. People come back from world cups with email addresses and phone numbers from the 4 corners of the globe.

They can and do get the exact same things from international club competitions. For example, replace the world cup with a world club cup, the best clubs in the world playing against each other. One keeps the international element without the underlying and ugly national sentiment.

Although, its clear your rant is a pop at football from one of our rugby betters. Do you want the 6 nations abolished? Didn't think so.

Random.

OhNoYouDidn't

Het-Field wrote: »

Sorry. You cannot call Ireland a "mutant" and claim he is not a benchmark for anything. That is a cop-out of the highest order. Is Ireland not one of those who prefers to denegrade the jersey over actually engaging with it, and utilising his great talent for the benefit of the Irish nation ?

I don't disagree with your substantive. There are a couple of high profile Corkies who have let us down over the years. I just don't see the relevence to whether we should let anyone who is eligible play regardless of whether they are actually Irish or fit in to the FAI strategy.

Het-Field wrote: »

I read the article, I am the OP. I would also point that I am, and have stated that I am not keen on his rhetoric. But where does it say that he doesnt want to be here ?

Maybe I should tighten up the language. He does, NOW, want to play. But that is a decision he has taken for all the wrong reasons and someone somewhere should say no on principal.

If you have 20 U21 caps for anothe country and held out till you were 28 for a full cap, you clearly are using us for what you can get. I thought we left that behind in the 80's

Xavi6

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

No, but their is an element of 'the craic' about a lot of the posts. The team should mean something, represent the country and inspire the kids to achieve that standard.

Kevin Doyle of Jermaine Pennant? Which would we want our kids to aspire to be? A kid who worked his way up the LoI chain and got a big move overseas where he is considered a model pro or a spoilt brat who leaves Ferrari's in airport carparks and declares for another country at 28?

You're an idealist not a realist. It's not without its charm admittedly but that's not the way of the world.

Did Portugal turn down Deco? Italy tell Camoranesi to feck off?

You have had your arse handed to you on this. Gary Twigg was bought because we have no young players of the standard he is. That is what clubs do. Fill talent gaps with purchases. ITs part of the global nature of the game.

I don't se how I've had my arse handed to me in any way shape or form. Both scenarios curb the development of youngsters. Sure it's been said often enough about that league across the water.

And the global nature of the international game is to pick the best players possible within the rules.

International sides really aren't supposed to 'purchase' talent from overseas. They are supposed to develop and nurture it. And ironically, we are doing that better than we ever have before. And when we finally are producing players at home good enough to compete with the best, Trapp regresses to the granny rule. With dross like Greene and Westwood as well.

I know its a cliche, and I know its old fashioned, but this kind of nonsense fundamentally cheapens the jersey and what it should represent.

It is a cliche and it is old fashioned. It's also ultimately irrelevant under the current rules (whether they are right or wrong is a seperate issue). Until they change Ireland should be playing the best players available to them whether they were conceived in the centre circle of Dalyer or otherwise.

OhNoYouDidn't

Orizio wrote: »

Exactly - clubs are the ideal mutli-cultural entities to bring soccer into a truly multi-cultural world. National teams are a blight on the soccer landscape by comparison and simply drag soccer's otherwise impeccable reputation down through nationalist and backwards sentiment.

How are national teams a blight? How is the sentiment at international football any better or worse than at club football?

Orizio wrote: »

They can and do get the exact same things from international club competitions. For example, replace the world cup with a world club cup, the best clubs in the world playing against each other. One keeps the international element without the underlying and ugly national sentiment.

You do then understand that Ireland will have nothing in a football sense then. What good does that do us? Its embarrasing enough having most Irish football fans cheering for foreign clubs. Now those foreign clubs will become a de facto Irish national side? Fcuk that.

Orizio wrote: »

Random.

No its not. Do you abolish all international events? Rugby, chess, the eurovision?

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I don't disagree with your substantive. There are a couple of high profile Corkies who have let us down over the years. I just don't see the relevence to whether we should let anyone who is eligible play regardless of whether they are actually Irish or fit in to the FAI strategy.

Maybe I should tighten up the language. He does, NOW, want to play. But that is a decision he has taken for all the wrong reasons and someone somewhere should say no on principal.

If you have 20 U21 caps for anothe country and held out till you were 28 for a full cap, you clearly are using us for what you can get. I thought we left that behind in the 80's[/QUOTE]

Sorry, but you are still seeking to speak for the player. His motives are really irrelevant. If he comes and plays for Ireland ala Houghton/Cascarino then he is contributing to the Irish nation, and nationalist sentiments towards the soccer team will increase. The Irish team suffered from the absence of Keane, and is not as good with Stephen Ireland. I agree that we have had some lame-duck "Irishmen", but I believe your gripe is, and should really be with lame-duck players.

Equally, if he is recognised as Irish, then who are we to dictate as to what he feels of his "Irishness" ?

tonycascarino

slingerz wrote: »

In recent days it seems as if Ireland are pursuing the granny rule again with Stearman and now Pennant seemingly interested.

...About time too.

Rob113

He has a desire to play international football. Is practically begging for a call up. He wants to play in a major tournament and will more than likely play out if his skin to get us there. Win - win for us and him.

OPENROAD

I've heard it all.


With Jack and Theo now looking like England regulars, I will be taking an interest in International Football here again, so I would like to formally announce that I am considering declaring for England though with Ramsey now back playing also I might consider Wales. I hope to make a decision by the end of the season and will make the announcement on here then. Not joking either

Sir Gallagher

Orizio wrote: »

Well pretty much exactly. Soccer needs to lead the way - we live in a truly international world in which culture, tradition and beliefs of all peoples intermingle almost constantly, a world in which antiquated ideas like 'nationality' and 'patriotism' are superficial and little more then excuses to bash 'foreigners'.

As such, teams based around national lines are superficial and increasingly at odds with the world around us. Ideally we should get rid of naitonal teams altogether; but as some people are not progressive enough for this quite yet, although I do believe the highly educated soccer masses will accept and agree with my argument eventually, we should base 'national' team choices completely on talent and enthusiasm to dilute the backwards nationalist element.

I think you're trying to portray international football in a very sinister way here, there's not much difference between national and club football it's sport and it's tribal in it's very nature.

Yakult

Tbf that teams needs all the decent players it can get. Pennant isnt anything special but he has some pace and can cross the ball so why not. McGeady on the left wing and Pennant on the right. Already looks better than what we have.
Of course, if we do have a talented right winger already I wouldnt put pennant first choice.

OhNoYouDidn't

Het-Field wrote: »

Sorry, but you are still seeking to speak for the player. His motives are really irrelevant. If he comes and plays for Ireland ala Houghton/Cascarino then he is contributing to the Irish nation, and nationalist sentiments towards the soccer team will increase. The Irish team suffered from the absence of Keane, and is not as good with Stephen Ireland. I agree that we have had some lame-duck "Irishmen", but I believe your gripe is, and should really be with lame-duck players.

Equally, if he is recognised as Irish, then who are we to dictate as to what he feels of his "Irishness" ?

My gripe is with the regression in the national team back to the 80's when any cabbage with an Irish granny, usually one he was unaware of, was selected over the locals. My bigger gripe is with the culture of the national team fans who accept this, and indeed often see it as a good thing.

Maybe I am an idealist who would prefer to see 11 Irishmen or Irishmen born overseas represent the country than 11 brits who failed to make the grade elswhere and fancied a crack at plan b or c. But I swallowed it before when we had a choice between losing with the locals or winning with the imports.

But I find it VERY hard to believe that Ireland is better off with Greene over Meyler, Westwood over Murphy etc. We have the home produced talent. Lets use it.

OPENROAD

Yakult wrote: »

Tbf that teams needs all the decent players it can get. Pennant isnt anything special but he has some pace and can cross the ball so why not. McGeady on the left wing and Pennant on the right. Already looks better than what we have.
Of course, if we do have a talented right winger already I wouldnt put pennant first choice.

I don't have an issue with Pennant playing but the argument you hear from some to put on the Green jersey all whatever country jersey is the greatest honor you have kind of goes out the window imo.

NeoKubrick

Orizio wrote: »

Well pretty much exactly. Soccer needs to lead the way - we live in a truly international world in which culture, tradition and beliefs of all peoples intermingle almost constantly, a world in which antiquated ideas like 'nationality' and 'patriotism' are superficial and little more then excuses to bash 'foreigners'.

As such, teams based around national lines are superficial and increasingly at odds with the world around us. Ideally we should get rid of naitonal teams altogether; but as some people are not progressive enough for this quite yet, although I do believe the highly educated soccer masses will accept and agree with my argument eventually, we should base 'national' team choices completely on talent and enthusiasm to dilute the backwards nationalist element.

Orizio wrote:

Exactly - clubs are the ideal mutli-cultural entities to bring soccer into a truly multi-cultural world. National teams are a blight on the soccer landscape by comparison and simply drag soccer's otherwise impeccable reputation down through nationalist and backwards sentiment.

Absolutely clueless. I'll ignore the ignorant claims that 'nationality' and 'patriotism' are "antiquated", because this isn't the forum to correct your ignorance on that subject.

Clubs are not "ideal multi-cultural entities". First, that's an oxymoron: anything that separates an entity into entities is not ideal in the context of homogeneity. Second, the same energy that drives nationalism in football teams or miltary armies is the same energy that drives tribalism in club football. The difference is that one is at the national level and one, the local: same meaning but different labels. I used the word 'clueless' before because there is abundance evidence here in this forum of this tribalism. Here, read: Liverpool versus Manchester United match thread.

Jayob10

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

My gripe is with the regression in the national team back to the 80's when any cabbage with an Irish granny, usually one he was unaware of, was selected over the locals. My bigger gripe is with the culture of the national team fans who accept this, and indeed often see it as a good thing.

Maybe I am an idealist who would prefer to see 11 Irishmen or Irishmen born overseas represent the country than 11 brits who failed to make the grade elswhere and fancied a crack at plan b or c. But I swallowed it before when we had a choice between losing with the locals or winning with the imports.

But I find it VERY hard to believe that Ireland is better off with Greene over Meyler, Westwood over Murphy etc. We have the home produced talent. Lets use it.

I am all for using the granny rule, but this is where we differ my friend. Favouring the rule doesn't mean one favours Green over Meyler. Top Irish players will always play. Any tom, dick or harry can tell you Meyler is a significantly better player and he will be a key player in our future.

Westwood on the other hand is a far better keeper than Murphy and that just a fact of life, hence he would play in goal for me.

Its about picking the best players available, Westwood is eligible to play for us, he is a significant improvement on whats already on offer in that area (back up to Given) and I have no problem with that.

Green is anohter story though, he is just not good enough.

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

My gripe is with the regression in the national team back to the 80's when any cabbage with an Irish granny, usually one he was unaware of, was selected over the locals. My bigger gripe is with the culture of the national team fans who accept this, and indeed often see it as a good thing.

Maybe I am an idealist who would prefer to see 11 Irishmen or Irishmen born overseas represent the country than 11 brits who failed to make the grade elswhere and fancied a crack at plan b or c. But I swallowed it before when we had a choice between losing with the locals or winning with the imports.

But I find it VERY hard to believe that Ireland is better off with Greene over Meyler, Westwood over Murphy etc. We have the home produced talent. Lets use it.

In the 1980s/1990s Ireland qualified for a European Championship, and two World Cup Finals with a heavy Anglo-Irish influence. Hictorical commentators often refer to these events as watershed events, which sparked a real revivial in Irish pride, and a sustainable upswing in the nations political and economic fortunes. It may not have been a direct catalyst, but they were events, as a result of which, our national stock rose. If we continued on the losing path at that point, we would not have had the swell of pride which came as a result of those events. Would you prefer to display the Green Jersey to the whole world, or simply retain it for those who are born within defined borders, or have direct parental linkage to the nation-state ?

With due respect, I wouldnt call you an idealist if you chose to lose with the locals as opposed winning with the imports. I would call you crazy. Globalisation, and the development of disporas mean that we cannot live in a form of "Anzac legend" whereby Irishness is defined by certain traits, and personalities. The Irish nation is rooted all over the world. The Granny Rule was a natural product of displacement amongst international communities. Many people are entitled to Irish passports, who have never set foot in the country. That is not the product of chance, or seeking nationality under false pretences. That is the product of deliberate displacement by their ancestors. Thus, we should not be trying to limit ourselves as to who is, and who is not Irish.

It is easy use the likes of Paul Green, and Kieran Westwood as a stick to beat people like me with. And I agree that the likes of Green should not be in front of Keith Andrews and Darren Gibson. However, that is on a footballing basis. If Jamie O Hara was to declare for Ireland I would equally be calling for the dropping og Glenn Whelan, who is a far weaker player, and is a bit part player at Stoke City.

I would lso warn against citing the likes of Meyler and Murphy. Meyler has been incapable of playing for Ireland due to a lengthy injury lay-off, while Murphy is an ordinary footballer, with questionable attitude.

OPENROAD

Het-Field wrote: »

In the 1980s/1990s Ireland qualified for a European Championship, and two World Cup Finals with a heavy Anglo-Irish influence. Hictorical commentators often refer to these events as watershed events, which sparked a real revivial in Irish pride, and a sustainable upswing in the nations political and economic fortunes. It may not have been a direct catalyst, but they were events, as a result of which, our national stock rose. If we continued on the losing path at that point, we would not have had the swell of pride which came as a result of those events. Would you prefer to display the Green Jersey to the whole world, or simply retain it for those who are born within defined borders, or have direct parental linkage to the nation-state ?

With due respect, I wouldnt call you an idealist if you chose to lose with the locals as opposed winning with the imports. I would call you crazy. Globalisation, and the development of disporas mean that we cannot live in a form of "Anzac legend" whereby Irishness is defined by certain traits, and personalities. The Irish nation is rooted all over the world. The Granny Rule was a natural product of displacement amongst international communities. Many people are entitled to Irish passports, who have never set foot in the country. That is not the product of chance, or seeking nationality under false pretences. That is the product of deliberate displacement by their ancestors. Thus, we should not be trying to limit ourselves as to who is, and who is not Irish.

It is easy use the likes of Paul Green, and Kieran Westwood as a stick to beat people like me with. And I agree that the likes of Green should not be in front of Keith Andrews and Darren Gibson. However, that is on a footballing basis. If Jamie O Hara was to declare for Ireland I would equally be calling for the dropping og Glenn Whelan, who is a far weaker player, and is a bit part player at Stoke City.

I would lso warn against citing the likes of Meyler and Murphy. Meyler has been incapable of playing for Ireland due to a lengthy injury lay-off, while Murphy is an ordinary footballer, with questionable attitude.

As long as you and the media acknowledge the players country of birth, with all the English born players playing for Ireland.

In the 90's it always amused me watching international football in the pub, Ireland would be playing with a bunch of English players, the next match on tv would be England and the abuse was unbelievable, never made sense to me, only a few mins earlier the same people were cheering on English born players

And the other thing with the amount of immigration we have had in recent years and with immigrants now having Irish born kids, I really hope we don't see threads in years to come calling X player a traitor cause he doesn't want to play for Ireland.

parker kent

Xavi6 wrote: »

I didn't realise the leprechaun suit and accepting eligible players went hand in hand.

So you'll accept foreign players to the national league at the expense of someone in a youth team but shout down an eligible player wanting to represent the national side for the same reason.

Double standards.

Do you just want international football to become like club football? Maybe the Irish national team can be bought by a Russian or Middle-Eastern billionaire. Then we can fill the LOI with Brazilians and give them passports.

Club football is not international football. FIFA should ban the mercenary footballers that are getting passports of convenience such as Deco or any of the Brazilians that turn up all over the place. It is not a double standard to see club and international football as different. They just are different. I disagree with ONYD on a few issues on here, but he is dead right here.

I don't understand how people cannot that see a 28 year old who has played 24 times for England U-21s should not be playing for Ireland. He is not Irish. He does not think he is Irish. At least people like McGeady and McCarthy made a decision at an early age. Ciaran Clark has made a similar switch. All of them would be pretty sure of playing for Scotland or England. This is different. This is a guy looking to increase his value by getting to a World Cup.

SantryRed wrote: »

Hate this thread. I hate people who say that because he didn't say he'd play for Ireland from 22/23 then he shouldn't be considered. That's because he was good enough to be near the England team at the time! Whereas fcuking Kilbane and the likes were never, ever going to be good enough for England. No difference whatsoever.

Kilbane has grown up with dual nationality in his family. Maybe you don't know English people like that, but it pretty common for them to consider themselves from both countries. Pennant on the other hand is totally different.

Het-Field

OPENROAD wrote: »

As long as you and the media acknowledge the players country of birth, with all the English born players playing for Ireland.

In the 90's it always amused me watching international football in the pub, Ireland would be playing with a bunch of English players, the next match on tv would be England and the abuse was unbelievable, never made sense to me, only a few mins earlier the same people were cheering on English born players :confused:

So what if they are English born ? If their lineage allows them to play for Ireland, then they may be construed as such. I am not so narrow minded as to think that Irishness begins and ends at North-Wall and Dublin Airport.

Sorry, they were cheering on decendents of the Irish disapora, who made deliberate decisions to join homegrown Irish players in an attempt to improve the Irish soccer team. The other team is another nation, with many players with no connections to the Irish nation at all.

That_Guy

I'd take Pennant in a heartbeat to be honest.

Paully D

Yes please!

He'd be a fantastic addition to the starting 11.

parker kent

Paully D wrote: »

Yes please!

He'd be a fantastic addition to the starting 11.

Duff, McGeady, Coleman are all better. Why screw around Coleman who should be a pillar of our team for the next 12-15 years to suit a journeyman English player?

OPENROAD

Het-Field wrote: »

So what if they are English born ? If their lineage allows them to play for Ireland, then they may be construed as such. I am not so narrow minded as to think that Irishness begins and ends at North-Wall and Dublin Airport.

Sorry, they were cheering on decendents of the Irish disapora, who made deliberate decisions to join homegrown Irish players in an attempt to improve the Irish soccer team. The other team is another nation, with many players with no connections to the Irish nation at all.

I have absolutely no problem with them playing for Ireland, but I disagree with you on the behaviour of Irish fans in the example I gave, it actually put me completely off International football.

I could qualify to play for a couple of countries on the parent/grandparent rule, but it would feel strange considering I have never been to them before and was born and brought up in Ireland.

All I am saying is acknowledge the country of birth, have seen people knock Andy Townsend here when he has referred to England as we, this type of knocking really pisses me off.

Listen to Big Mick, clearly an Irish legend, but he is also comes across as very English, just wish people would acknowledge this.

OhNoYouDidn't

Het-Field wrote: »

In the 1980s/1990s Ireland qualified for a European Championship, and two World Cup Finals with a heavy Anglo-Irish influence. Hictorical commentators often refer to these events as watershed events, which sparked a real revivial in Irish pride, and a sustainable upswing in the nations political and economic fortunes. It may not have been a direct catalyst, but they were events, as a result of which, our national stock rose. If we continued on the losing path at that point, we would not have had the swell of pride which came as a result of those events. Would you prefer to display the Green Jersey to the whole world, or simply retain it for those who are born within defined borders, or have direct parental linkage to the nation-state ?

I stated before back then that I held my nose and cheered them on because there were no other options.

And yes, I would limit selection to the national side to Irishmen and diaspora.

In an ideal world Townsend and his black armbands for Diana Windsor would have been nowhere near the Irish team.

Het-Field wrote: »

With due respect, I wouldnt call you an idealist if you chose to lose with the locals as opposed winning with the imports. I would call you crazy. Globalisation, and the development of disporas mean that we cannot live in a form of "Anzac legend" whereby Irishness is defined by certain traits, and personalities. The Irish nation is rooted all over the world. The Granny Rule was a natural product of displacement amongst international communities. Many people are entitled to Irish passports, who have never set foot in the country. That is not the product of chance, or seeking nationality under false pretences. That is the product of deliberate displacement by their ancestors. Thus, we should not be trying to limit ourselves as to who is, and who is not Irish.

I 100% agree. But there is a difference between genuine diaspora, which I have repeatedly stated I would welcome in green shirts, and being a doormat for good but not great players who want to increase their value at contract time by being international players.

You cannot realistically compare Aiden McGeady and Jermaine Pennant, who both qualify the same way, in terms of any realistic definition of Irishness. One is. One isn't. Its that stark. Now the question becomes one of principal and even pride.

Het-Field wrote: »

It is easy use the likes of Paul Green, and Kieran Westwood as a stick to beat people like me with. And I agree that the likes of Green should not be in front of Keith Andrews and Darren Gibson. However, that is on a footballing basis. If Jamie O Hara was to declare for Ireland I would equally be calling for the dropping og Glenn Whelan, who is a far weaker player, and is a bit part player at Stoke City.

I would lso warn against citing the likes of Meyler and Murphy. Meyler has been incapable of playing for Ireland due to a lengthy injury lay-off, while Murphy is an ordinary footballer, with questionable attitude.

We are into a tangential argument over Trapp not playing the right players in the right positions. My dislike of Greene is not because he is English, its because he is a long way from an international player, as is Whelan.

But I would prefer a mediocre Dub than a mediocore player from Derby.

Jayob10

parker kent wrote: »

Do you just want international football to become like club football? Maybe the Irish national team can be bought by a Russian or Middle-Eastern billionaire. Then we can fill the LOI with Brazilians and give them passports.

Club football is not international football. FIFA should ban the mercenary footballers that are getting passports of convenience such as Deco or any of the Brazilians that turn up all over the place. It is not a double standard to see club and international football as different. They just are different. I disagree with ONYD on a few issues on here, but he is dead right here.

I don't understand how people cannot that see a 28 year old who has played 24 times for England U-21s should not be playing for Ireland. He is not Irish. He does not think he is Irish. At least people like McGeady and McCarthy made a decision at an early age. Ciaran Clark has made a similar switch. All of them would be pretty sure of playing for Scotland or England. This is different. This is a guy looking to increase his value by getting to a World Cup.




Kilbane has grown up with dual nationality in his family. Maybe you don't know English people like that, but it pretty common for them to consider themselves from both countries. Pennant on the other hand is totally different.

Using the example of issuing passports of convenience to Brazilians is not relevant here at all. Thats a totally different issue.

Like it or not, Jermaine Pennant is entitled to an irish passport if he follows the official channels. He has blood lineage to Ireland, whether he actively embraces it is another story.

We whinge that Pennant is only looking to get to a world cup to increase his value, we could just as easily squeeze a few good performances out of him (a player who legally qualifies to play for us) to our own benefit of maybe qualifying for a major tournament.

Look at Matt Holland, he declared for us late and played a vital role in our 2002 world cup qualification and indeed at the tournament itself.

We need good players. One previous poster complained that we should not embrace a scenario that sees Green play over Meyler and Westwood play over Murphy.

Ive never heard such nonsense. Thats not a product of exploiting the granny rule. I don't think too many managers would rate green over Meyler. And I would hope any manager with 2 eyes would rate Westwood over Murphy as he is a vastly better keeper. And he is eligible to play for Ireland.

Its an English bias that is all it is. Irish people do not like hearing an English accent. People clamour for James McCarthy to be persuaded not to change his mind but if he was English he would prob have been written off by now. Barry Maguire is another one.

Sure we want our best Irish talent to play, and they will they always have. The Pennants of this world are not being recruited to replace the McGeadys and Keanes and Meylers. They are there to maybe provide competition to the lesser names who are only called up due to a lack of depth.

Paully D

parker kent wrote: »

Duff, McGeady, Coleman are all better. Why screw around Coleman who should be a pillar of our team for the next 12-15 years to suit a journeyman English player?

Duff has a couple of seasons left at best.

Coleman can play RB or RM (he'll end up dropping back to RB in the near future with Everton) and McGeady can play RM or LM (it's also debatable whether he's better than Pennant).

Players get injured, suspended etc so it would be useful to have a number of good options.

Portugal, England, Germany, Turkey etc all take advantage of using players who aren't born in the country so it doesn't bother me if Ireland do it too.

Pennant's would be an excellent addition IMO.