Pennant seeks ROI Call-up

OhNoYouDidn't

Het-Field wrote: »

Sorry, they were cheering on decendents of the Irish disapora, who made deliberate decisions to join homegrown Irish players in an attempt to improve the Irish soccer team. The other team is another nation, with many players with no connections to the Irish nation at all.

Thats where you are wrong and I might suggest you were a bit too young at the time to get the nuances happening around the game.

There were genuine diaspora like McGrath, McCarthy, O'Leary, Morris, Sheedy, Sheridan and Houghton in that team.

There were also pure chancers like Townsend and McLoughlin. And they were controversial picks even back then when Jack was approaching canonisation..

tonycascarino

Jayob10 wrote: »

Its an English bias that is all it is. Irish people do not like hearing an English accent. People clamour for James McCarthy to be persuaded not to change his mind but if he was English he would prob have been written off by now. Barry Maguire is another one.

That's what I think it is alright. If Pennant was for instance Dutch I doubt too many would be kicking up a fuss.

OhNoYouDidn't

Paully D wrote: »

Portugal, England, Germany, Turkey etc all take advantage of using players who aren't born in the country so it doesn't bother me if Ireland do it too.

We aren't talking about the Granny rule as a concept. We are talking about the specific player and his comments.

None of the 4 you listed would take a 28 year old with 24 U21 caps for another country. None.

OhNoYouDidn't

tonycascarino wrote: »

That's what I think it is alright. If Pennant was for instance Dutch I doubt too many would be kicking up a fuss.

Patronising rubbish.

No-one objects to English born players. The issue is the stringing along and arrogance to admit we are his plan b. If Leo Messi was dicking us around like this, I would argue to cut the cord.

Ebbs

Id say no.

Not because hes dicking us around, not because hes english but because hes poisin.

tonycascarino

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

We aren't talking about the Granny rule as a concept. We are talking about the specific player and his comments.

None of the 4 you listed would take a 28 year old with 24 U21 caps for another country. None.

How about Jermaine Jones getting capped 3 times for the German national side before now becoming a USA international & the likes of Thiago Motta getting capped twice by Brazil before and now is an Italian international.

OPENROAD

tonycascarino wrote: »

How about Jermaine Jones getting capped 3 times for the German national side before now becoming American & the likes of Thiago Motta getting capped twice by Brazil before now deciding he is Italian.

I am sure if we were to benefit from a player who played for several counties before declaring for Ireland, we would not have a problem with it.

With regards the official rules personally I feel the parent rule is fine but if you go further back, I think you should just be able to declare for whatever country you like, which I would like to see.

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I stated before back then that I held my nose and cheered them on because there were no other options..

Why hold your nose ? Ireland were doing well. It would be nice for the Irish team to be made up of "genuine" Irishmen, but the entire domestic set-up was such a joke that there were very few "genuine" Irishmen available. If you would prefer Ireland to perform poorly with a team of "genuine" Irishmen, as opposed to well with some diaspora/products of the diaspora then you are a nationalist, and not a football fan.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

And yes, I would limit selection to the national side to Irishmen and diaspora.

Is Pennant not, a product (at least) of the disapora ????

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

In an ideal world Townsend and his black armbands for Diana Windsor would have been nowhere near the Irish team...

Cop yourself on. Townsend did more for this nation then many "patriots". I defy you to tell me that Townsend's involvement with the Irish nation was negative. I think you will find that you will be trodding on tenuious ground.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

I 100% agree. But there is a difference between genuine diaspora, which I have repeatedly stated I would welcome in green shirts, and being a doormat for good but not great players who want to increase their value at contract time by being international players.

You cannot realistically compare Aiden McGeady and Jermaine Pennant, who both qualify the same way, in terms of any realistic definition of Irishness. One is. One isn't. Its that stark. Now the question becomes one of principal and even pride. ..

Pennant and McGeady both seem to qualify through Grandparents From that perspective, they are as Irish as each other. Thus, they are both "genuine diaspora" of "genuine products of diaspora". I understand your point regarding the differences i.e. McGeady's initial declaration of his intention to play for Ireland. But, have we got to a stage where an early declaration of Irishness is required to wear the shirt ? Both McGeady and Pennant appear to have the same degree of family ties to the county. As such, they are both equally worthy in my eyes.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

We are into a tangential argument over Trapp not playing the right players in the right positions. My dislike of Greene is not because he is English, its because he is a long way from an international player, as is Whelan.

But I would prefer a mediocre Dub than a mediocore player from Derby.

I presume the reverse is not the case, i.e. you would select O'Hara over Whelan, in spite of the former being a far better player ?

Paully D

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

We aren't talking about the Granny rule as a concept. We are talking about the specific player and his comments.

None of the 4 you listed would take a 28 year old with 24 U21 caps for another country. None.

That's because they're much better footballing nations than Ireland are.

Look, if I had my way then a player could only player for the country he or his parents were born in, but that fact is under the current rules Pennant can play for Ireland. Also, he would improve Ireland as he's a good footballer (Steve Bruce said he's the most talented player he has ever worked with).

Obviously he wants to play for England, what player with English nationality wouldn't? However, he knows in his heart of hearts that that's not going to happen, therefore he's looking at other options (ie Ireland) so that he can play international football.

I suppose if you had your way every player would have to be called Paddy Murphy and have an Irish accent, but give me talented players like Pennant over ''pure'' Irishmen like Glenn Whelan any day, regardless of whether they'd prefer to play for England or not.

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Thats where you are wrong and I might suggest you were a bit too young at the time to get the nuances happening around the game.

There were genuine diaspora like McGrath, McCarthy, O'Leary, Morris, Sheedy, Sheridan and Houghton in that team.

There were also pure chancers like Townsend and McLoughlin. And they were controversial picks even back then when Jack was approaching canonisation..

Please define "genuine disapora" for me ?

Houghton is the same as Pennant. Pure and simply. Didnt get in the Scottish side. Still referred to his preference for Scotland. You cannot compare him in the same vein as McGrath and O'Leary who returned from England at a very young age, with Irish lineage already running through them.

Im not wrong. You are attempting to shift goalposts on grounds of nationality", and moreover on grounds of one's degree of nationality.

Chancers they may have been. But the likes of McGloughlin and Townsend perfomred more of a service to the Irish nation, then many of those who sought to wrap themselves in the flag.

OPENROAD

Paully D wrote: »

That's because they're much better footballing nations than Ireland are.

Look, if I had my way then a player could only player for the country he or his parents were born in, but that fact is under the current rules Pennant can play for Ireland. Also, he would improve Ireland as he's a good footballer (Steve Bruce said he's the most talented player he has ever worked with).

Obviously he wants to play for England, what player with English nationality wouldn't? However, he knows in his heart of hearts that that's not going to happen, therefore he's looking at other options (ie Ireland) so that he can play international football.

I suppose if you had your way every player would have to be called Paddy Murphy and have an Irish accent, but give me talented players like Pennant over ''pure'' Irishmen like Glenn Whelan any day, regardless of whether they'd prefer to play for England or not.

I'm glad you acknowledge that.

parker kent

Jayob10 wrote: »

Using the example of issuing passports of convenience to Brazilians is not relevant here at all. Thats a totally different issue.

Like it or not, Jermaine Pennant is entitled to an irish passport if he follows the official channels. He has blood lineage to Ireland, whether he actively embraces it is another story.

We whinge that Pennant is only looking to get to a world cup to increase his value, we could just as easily squeeze a few good performances out of him (a player who legally qualifies to play for us) to our own benefit of maybe qualifying for a major tournament.

Look at Matt Holland, he declared for us late and played a vital role in our 2002 world cup qualification and indeed at the tournament itself.

We need good players. One previous poster complained that we should not embrace a scenario that sees Green play over Meyler and Westwood play over Murphy.

Ive never heard such nonsense. Thats not a product of exploiting the granny rule. I don't think too many managers would rate green over Meyler. And I would hope any manager with 2 eyes would rate Westwood over Murphy as he is a vastly better keeper. And he is eligible to play for Ireland.

Its an English bias that is all it is. Irish people do not like hearing an English accent. People clamour for James McCarthy to be persuaded not to change his mind but if he was English he would prob have been written off by now. Barry Maguire is another one.

Sure we want our best Irish talent to play, and they will they always have. The Pennants of this world are not being recruited to replace the McGeadys and Keanes and Meylers. They are there to maybe provide competition to the lesser names who are only called up due to a lack of depth.

I was referring specifically to posts saying that international football should follow club football. I used exaggerated examples to highlight the differences between the two. I then added a personal gripe with how easy it is to switch allegiance. I did not compare Brazilians with the Pennant issue directly.

How is it an English bias when I have spoken about Kilbane, Clark etc? Nobody has a problem with Clark. The only issue with Kilbane were his performances over the last few years. He was genuinely like by most Irish soccer fans. We could see his passion for Ireland. He is not a 28 year old deciding he wants to improve his career. He actually wanted to play for Ireland.

Ireland actually have a decent batch of young players. We should be relatively OK depth wise. Well good enough to avoid Pennant. Aside from his lack of Irishness, I don't feel he is the type of player Ireland want or need.

OhNoYouDidn't

tonycascarino wrote: »

How about Jermaine Jones getting capped 3 times for the German national side before now becoming a USA international & the likes of Thiago Motta getting capped twice by Brazil before and now is an Italian international.

Jones moved FROM Germany ffs, how is that relevent to my point?

Motta is a more interesting example. A couple of caps for Brazil way back when and a one cap wonder for Italy 9 years later. I suppose the difference is he lives in Italy....

But the point remains. None of the big boys would be strung along like this.

Jayob10

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

We aren't talking about the Granny rule as a concept. We are talking about the specific player and his comments.

None of the 4 you listed would take a 28 year old with 24 U21 caps for another country. None.

Yes but those other 4 either have a rich footballing history or substantial population that we do not have.

The comment about the English accent does ring true aswell. Its the old inferiority complex kicking in.
Pennant has shown honesty, and its up to us if we want to pick him or not.

We could just as easily cap him and then bin him ala Paul Butler. its a win win for us either way.

parker kent

Jayob10 wrote: »

Yes but those other 4 either have a rich footballing history or substantial population that we do not have.

The comment about the English accent does ring true aswell. Its the old inferiority complex kicking in.
Pennant has shown honesty, and its up to us if we want to pick him or not.

We could just as easily cap him and then bin him ala Paul Butler. its a win win for us either way.

He didn't bring those 4 countries into the argument. They were given as examples by another poster of countries who have used the granny rule. So their rich history and large populations are still being ignored in favour of granny rule players or people living in the country claiming passports of convenience.

wandatowell

Who is he again???

Ebbs

wandatowell wrote: »

Who is he again???

Some potential fringe player, average and plays in argueablly our strongest/most contested position.

Great at whipping balls in for keane to outjump everyone and score.

sonic85

anytime ive seen pennant play hes been rubbish so he can jog on. dont know why theres so much love for him in this thread

Jayob10

parker kent wrote: »

He didn't bring those 4 countries into the argument. They were given as examples by another poster of countries who have used the granny rule. So their rich history and large populations are still being ignored in favour of granny rule players or people living in the country claiming passports of convenience.

He quite clearly stated that none of those 4 countries would take a 28 year old with 24 caps at under 21 level for another nation.

Comparing ourselves to the above nations in terms of standard of players we recruit is ridiculous in my book.

OhNoYouDidn't

Jayob10 wrote: »

He quite clearly stated that none of those 4 countries would take a 28 year old with 24 caps at under 21 level for another nation.

Comparing ourselves to the above nations in terms of standard of players we recruit is ridiculous in my book.

Those four were mentioned as teams that also use the Granny rule.

I agree. And I have no problem with the granny rule per say.

None of those sides would accept a jumped up ferrari forgetter dictate terms. Thats my point.

Het-Field

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Those four were mentioned as teams that also use the Granny rule.

I agree. And I have no problem with the granny rule per say.

None of those sides would accept a jumped up ferrari forgetter dictate terms. Thats my point.

What terms is he trying to dictate ? He seems to be flying a kite, and offering his services for the team. He is not pinching the noses of the FAI like Roy Keane, or he is not storming out of meetings with Trappatoni after he has been kept waiting for 15 mins. I dont see any desperation on the part of the FAI, and I dont see Pennant trying to exploit that.

Pro. F

When we're talking about this sort of thing I think we shouldn't overlook how much this country has been affected by emigration. We've suffered because of it for centuries and it's still going on. We are the most widely spread nation on the planet iirc. So we should be allowed to take some benefit from that. The Granny Rule lets us do that.

I also think it's important to realise that plenty of people in the world consider themselves to have two nationalities. I personally have known loads of people like that. I've also got half brothers with Irish parents born and raised in England. They would easily play in an Irish or English jersey. There is nothing weird about that for them. So it's not hard to imagine a situation where they would play youths for England and only declare for Ireland late. I don't see a problem with that.

But people like Pennant who clearly have no real feeling of Irishness are a different story. He is unable to point at any real feeling of connection to that part of his roots so my feeling would be to leave him alone.

The real problem comes when it's a situation that isn't as obvious as Pennant's or, at the opposite end of the spectrum, McGeady and the like. It would be horrible to have trials by media to try and determine whether or not a potential player is telling the truth when they say that they have always felt a connection with their Irish roots.

It's a complicated situation in general and a complicated decision to be made in each particular case.

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

This thread is demeaning.

Also sums up nicely why LoI fans look down on the Ole Ole brigade. No pride whatsoever.

OhNoYouDidn't with another obviously false sweeping generalisation. It is beyond doubt that there is a lot of debate amongst supporters of the national team about players like pennant, but you will always ignore that and lie about the reality of the situation so you can throw your insults at them. Your obvious bitterness and complete disregard for the evidence that we can all read on this forum (even in this very thread) is pathetic.

Look, you don't like Irish people supporting foreign clubs. Get over it for God's sake man. Just deal with it and grow up. If you want to change the way the world is, acting like a tool is never going to achieve that.

flahavaj

Pro. F wrote: »

OhNoYouDidn't with another obviously false sweeping generalisation. It is beyond doubt that there is a lot of debate amongst supporters of the national team about players like pennant, but you will always ignore that and lie about the reality of the situation so you can throw your insults at them. Your obvious bitterness and complete disregard for the evidence that we can all read on this forum (even in this very thread) is pathetic.

Look, you don't like Irish people supporting foreign clubs. Get over it for God's sake man. Just deal with it and grow up. If you want to change the way the world is, acting like a tool is never going to achieve that.

BOOM! Spot on my man.

amiable

flahavaj wrote: »

BOOM! Spot on my man.

How about that. We agree on something;)

parker kent

Jayob10 wrote: »

He quite clearly stated that none of those 4 countries would take a 28 year old with 24 caps at under 21 level for another nation.

Comparing ourselves to the above nations in terms of standard of players we recruit is ridiculous in my book.

This is the post which brought those countries into the debate.

Paully D wrote: »

Portugal, England, Germany, Turkey etc all take advantage of using players who aren't born in the country so it doesn't bother me if Ireland do it too.

Pennant's would be an excellent addition IMO.

So it is natural to respond to that post by referring to those countries. So regardless of what he said, my point is correct. Other people brought such countries into the debate.