Comreg V UPC - the outcome - what a fiasco!!!!

dub45

From the Comreg website:

ComReg Update – UPC Notification of Proposed Changes to Contract Terms and Conditions
On 31 January 2011, the Commission for Communications Regulation (ComReg) notified UPC Communications Ireland Limited (“UPC”) of a finding that it had not complied with Regulation 17(4) and Regulation 17(5) of the Universal Service Regulations, by having failed to furnish its subscribers with the proper individual and prior notification of a proposed change to their contract terms and conditions, and their statutory right to withdraw from their contract without penalty, should they not agree to the proposed change, (ComReg 11/06).
UPC has now proposed to ComReg a proactive programme of individual customer communications, covering the relevant customers affected, so as to advise customers of the change and allow them to exercise their rights.
The Commission has decided that, as the above approach addresses ComReg’s concerns and takes full account of the rights of consumers, it will not take further enforcement action in relation to this matter at this stage.

A "proactive" programme!!!! More than 3 months after notification was due to customers under UPC's own Terms and Conditions never mind their other obligations to use the term proactive is truly a sick joke!!!!

Meanwhile "irregular" price increases which UPC have got away with will yield them at least €750,000 per month if the increase averages one euro per month per customer. So over a million so far in January and February!!! Great stuff Comreg.

Meanwhile miss a direct debt to UPC and your charged 11 euros that you are not even warned about. Break your own Terms and Conditions, European Regulations and Comregs own requirements and make millions what a country!!!

And even now UPC dont seem to be abiding by their own Terms and Conditons in respect of how a price increase should be advised to customers!!

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=71053764&postcount=265

Kristopherus

At the risk of you coming down on me like a ton of bricks, could I suggest you make a formal complaint to Comreg about UPC's non-compliance. I'd be on your shoulder with you, but I'm only 6 months into my contract, and my service is via MMDS and MMDS customers did not suffer any increase:)

dub45

Kristopherus wrote: »

At the risk of you coming down on me like a ton of bricks, could I suggest you make a formal complaint to Comreg about UPC's non-compliance. I'd be on your shoulder with you, but I'm only 6 months into my contract, and my service is via MMDS and MMDS customers did not suffer any increase:)

It goes without saying I can assure you.

vibe666

it would be nice if we were allowed (as customers/consumers) to have some sort of a say in things like this, given that it's us who are affected.

if they're going to have som sort of a hearing or meeting about something that concerns us, should we not get to have our say on the matter when its being decided?

bealtine

vibe666 wrote: »

if they're going to have som sort of a hearing or meeting about something that concerns us, should we not get to have our say on the matter when its being decided?

Consumers are a nuisance as far as Comreg is concerned so what you propose is far too radical for their limited mindset...

dub45

Has anyone been "proactively" contacted by UPC yet about something that took place a couple of months ago?:rolleyes:

Nollog

I complained about it.
I feel bad for the person who has to read my email.
But it has to be done!

kmick

I got a text message yesterday but I also got a message from them on the UPC.ie website at the time. Overall I am happy with the service I get from them though. I do agree the santions are absolute pants though. A censure from COMREG is like being attacked by a sheep.

..Brian..

I got a text off them yesterday as well, thought it was gas informing me of January price increases on 7th of March, this explains that so!

dub45

..Brian.. wrote: »

I got a text off them yesterday as well, thought it was gas informing me of January price increases on 7th of March, this explains that so!

What exactly did the text say?

..Brian..

I cant remember exactly, something like;

"Information on our January price increases is available by logging into My UPC.ie or if you would prefer a printed copy posted to your address please reply YES."

RangeR

SMS wrote:

UPC: View a notice about UPC's January price change at www.upc.ie. Sign up to MyUPC & go to My Messages. Prefer a printed copy of the notice? Please reply yes

Received from 51000, 2nd March 3:53pm

upc.ie wrote:

Dear Customer

As you will be aware UPC introduced a number of price changes for its
services on 4 January 2011. UPC’s Broadband and Phone services
remain excellent value, however you have the right to cancel or
downgrade your service within 30 days of receipt of this notice without
penalty if you do not agree with these price changes. If you choose to
cancel you will be entitled to be credited the difference between the old
and the new price.

For details of all UPC price changes please go to the My Messages
section of My UPC at www.upc.ie

wush06

Got a text today goes like this.


UPC: View a notice about UPC's January price change at www.upc.ie.
Sign up to MyUPC & go to My Messages.
Prefer a printed copy of the notice? Please reply YES

dub45

wush06 wrote: »

Got a text today goes like this.


UPC: View a notice about UPC's January price change at www.upc.ie.
Sign up to MyUPC & go to My Messages.
Prefer a printed copy of the notice? Please reply YES

So they are requiring people to sign up to MYUPC to see a message about price increases that under their own terms and conditions they are required to advise customers about in writing?:rolleyes: It gets more idiotic by the day if thats possible!!!!!

16. Changing the Terms and Conditions
We retain the right to amend, modify or substitute these Terms and Conditions at any
time and we will notify you in writing 30 days in advance of doing so. Any such modification, amendment or substitution shall also be posted on our website at www.upc.ie. You have the right to withdraw from this Agreement without penalty if you do not accept the modification,

Could someone print the message on the website please?

RangeR

dub45 wrote: »

Could someone print the message my the website please?

Originally Posted by upc.ie
Dear Customer

As you will be aware UPC introduced a number of price changes for its
services on 4 January 2011. UPC’s Broadband and Phone services
remain excellent value, however you have the right to cancel or
downgrade your service within 30 days of receipt of this notice without
penalty if you do not agree with these price changes. If you choose to
cancel you will be entitled to be credited the difference between the old
and the new price.

For details of all UPC price changes please go to the My Messages
section of My UPC at www.upc.ie

.

dub45

So they are now requiring the customer to actively seek out information which under their own terms and conditions they are required to supply to the customer?


Apart from this being a totally wrong approach it doesnt appear to occur to them that there are customers who do not have the internet.

UPC are not primarily an isp. IIRC they have about 190,000 bb customers out of a total of 760,000.

I know several people who do not have the internet and are upc customers. I also know lots of people who do not want to sign up on any website for anything because of privacy fears etc.

Also it appears that if you leave you get a refund of the "Irregular" price increase so why didn't Comreg require UPC to refund (or credit) all customers and force UPC to withdraw the "irregular" price increase until all customers had been properly notified?

matt-dublin

Kristopherus wrote: »

At the risk of you coming down on me like a ton of bricks, could I suggest you make a formal complaint to Comreg about UPC's non-compliance. I'd be on your shoulder with you, but I'm only 6 months into my contract, and my service is via MMDS and MMDS customers did not suffer any increase:)

im mmds and i got an increase, i rang them, they put me onto customer loyalty, and dropped my bull by 20 euros

RangeR

Never really thought much of their bulls. Although they are great with chips.

colinod0806

@dub45 the last line of the sms says if you prefer to have them send you a printed copy just reply yes so that shouldnt be a problem for people who dont have internet

Nollog

I didn't get no text.

vibe666

/\/ollog wrote: »

I didn't get no text.

i literally just got one about 60 seconds ago. the text reads:

UPC: View a notice about UPC's January price change at www.upc.ie.
Sign up to MyUPC & go to My Messages. Prefer a printed copy of the
notice? Please reply YES

just checked my upc messages online (as they said to in the text) and it looks like they sent me a message on the 21-1-11 notifying me of the change with a full price list showing the changes, and another one on the 18-2-11 saying i could cancel without penalty if i didn't agree.

i'm guessing since i didn't know about any of that at all, they have sent me a text to remind me to read it. or they just don't care and sent out a blanket text to everyone.

Nollog

vibe666 wrote: »

i literally just got one about 60 seconds ago. the text reads:

Maybe they're not going to send me one because I already viewed the message a month ago.

Nollog

Reply
Jean Dwyer ✆ to me
show details Jul 7 (2 days ago)
Dear [me]

Can you please confirm if you received a refund from UPC regarding this matter?

Thank you

Anyone else get similar?

dub45

Funnily enough I had just been wondering about this. UPC are now in their seventh month of benefiting from a price increase which as we know did not comply with either the law or their own Terms and Conditions. The nonsense of texting people and requiring them to visit the UPC website in no way complied with their obligations. Comreg apparently okayed this nonsense.

I wonder what authority Comreg have to excuse an isp from breaking the law and their own Terms and Conditions?:mad::mad:

Seven months * 750,000 euros per month is a lot of money from a price increase that was non compliant! So much for the regulator!

RangeR

I'm sure I've said this numerous times before but.... WHEN have UPC EVER complied with their own T's & C's when it didn't suit?

jor el

/\/ollog wrote: »

Anyone else get similar?

Got exactly that. Doesn't inspire much confidence in Comreg that they are mass mailing everyone that submitted any kind of UPC complaint. I made it perfectly clear in my complaint that I was not effected by the price change, but was complaining that UPC were in breech of both their own T&Cs and Comreg's rulings regarding notification of changes. What I wanted was for Comreg to do something about it.

Sponge Bob

jor el wrote: »

Got exactly that. Doesn't inspire much confidence in Comreg that they are mass mailing everyone that submitted any kind of UPC complaint. I made it perfectly clear in my complaint that I was not effected by the price change, but was complaining that UPC were in breech of both their own T&Cs and Comreg's rulings regarding notification of changes. What I wanted was for Comreg to do something about it.

Comreg are in breach of Article 20 of the Universal Services Directive 2002

Take it to Brussels. Articles 20 onwards apply to ALL Authorised (licenced) carriers not just the Designated one....ie eircom)

CHAPTER IV
END-USER INTERESTS AND RIGHTS
Article 20
Contracts
1. Paragraphs 2, 3 and 4 apply without prejudice to Community rules on consumer protection, in particular Directives 97/7/EC and 93/13/EC, and national rules in conformity with Community law.
2. Member States shall ensure that, where subscribing to services providing connection and/or access to the public telephone network, consumers have a right to a contract with an undertaking or undertakings providing such services. The contract shall specify at least:
(a) the identity and address of the supplier;
(b) services provided, the service quality levels offered, as well as the time for the initial connection;
(c) the types of maintenance service offered;
(d) particulars of prices and tariffs and the means by which up-to-date information on all applicable tariffs and maintenance charges may be obtained;
(e) the duration of the contract, the conditions for renewal and termination of services and of the contract;
(f) any compensation and the refund arrangements which apply if contracted service quality levels are not met; and
(g) the method of initiating procedures for settlement of disputes in accordance with Article 34.
Member States may extend these obligations to cover other end-users.
3. Where contracts are concluded between consumers and electronic communications services providers other than those providing connection and/or access to the public telephone network, the information in paragraph 2 shall also be included in such contracts. Member States may extend this obligation to cover other end-users.
4. Subscribers shall have a right to withdraw from their contracts without penalty upon notice of proposed modifications in the contractual conditions. Subscribers shall be given adequate notice, not shorter than one month, ahead of any such modifications and shall be informed at the same time of their right to withdraw, without penalty, from such contracts, if they do not accept the new conditions.

and the breach occured when subscribers were required to register simply to get adequate notice...it is up to the carrier to notify...not up to the subscriber to actively seek such notifications and when Comreg did nothing about it AT THE TIME, as usual.

If you were not ADEQUATELY informed of your RIGHT to withdraw from your contract, without penalty, in Feb/March then take it to Brussels and complain about the tosspot regulator who refused to apply the 2002 USO Directive.

see here for contacts.

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/information_society/index_en.htm

Nollog

R DUNNE AND G GILL
Are these people in charge of UPC by any chance?
I got 30 euro and 20 cent lodged into my bank account and have absolutely no idea who it's from.

Abbeycraic

/\/ollog wrote: »

R DUNNE AND G GILL
Are these people in charge of UPC by any chance?
I got 30 euro and 20 cent lodged into my bank account and have absolutely no idea who it's from.

www.bethrifty.ie, I think.......it all counts!!!!! :)

dub45

/\/ollog wrote: »

Anyone else get similar?

The question being asked by Comreg is extraordinary and displays an amazing lack of perspective and indeed a clear lack of appreciation of the importance of this issue.

The issue is the compliance of an isp with the law, their own Terms and Conditons and also the fact that by behaving in the way they did UPC were clearly giving the two fingers to Comreg given that Comreg had highlighted the issue on their website in advance of any price increases.

Even where a customers is perfectly happy with their isp they are entitled to expect that isp to behave lawfully and in compliance with their Terms and Conditions.

It would seem to me that UPC are still in breach of the law and of their own Terms and Conditons. Comreg surely have no authority to absolve UPC from complying with the law or their own Terms and Conditons.

It should be remembered that UPC are getting quite a lot of money from this price increase - a conservative estimate at an average of one euro per month per customer would mean that up to July UPC could have collected €5,250,000.

Just a reminder for anyone coming late to this thread -

ComReg Update – UPC Notification of Proposed Changes to Contract Terms and Conditions
On 31 January 2011, the Commission for Communications Regulation (ComReg) notified UPC Communications Ireland Limited (“UPC”) of a finding that it had not complied with Regulation 17(4) and Regulation 17(5) of the Universal Service Regulations, by having failed to furnish its subscribers with the proper individual and prior notification of a proposed change to their contract terms and conditions, and their statutory right to withdraw from their contract without penalty, should they not agree to the proposed change, (ComReg 11/06).

UPC has now proposed to ComReg a proactive programme of individual customer communications, covering the relevant customers affected, so as to advise customers of the change and allow them to exercise their rights.
The Commission has decided that, as the above approach addresses ComReg’s concerns and takes full account of the rights of consumers, it will not take further enforcement action in relation to this matter at this stage.

Even at the time this seemed most unsatisfactory - bad enough the mangling of the English language -"proactive" in relation to something that should have been done before. This did not address the issue of the money UPC had collected and continue to collect from the irregular price increase nor did it address the issue of them failing to complay with their own Terms and Conditons.

The note above talks of the relevant customers affected but surely all customers were affected?

Comreg should have required UPC to retrpospectively cancel the price increase and to refund or credit customers with the money collected to date and then to properly notify customers of any propose price increase. I cannot see how Comreg had any authority to do anything else.

Also customers were entiltled to know what had been agreed between UPC and Comreg for this retrospective "proactive program"

Did Comreg agree to customers having to visit the website to inform themselves of the price increases? If so they were surely acting way beyond any authority they might have?

UPC's relevant Terms:

16. Changing the Terms and Conditions
We retain the right to amend, modify or substitute these Terms and Conditions at any
time and we will notify you in writing 30 days in advance of doing so

17. Notices
Unless otherwise detailed in this Agreement, notices given under this Agreement should
be delivered by hand or by prepaid first class post or electronic mail either:-
(i) to us: at the address on this Agreement or on the last invoice or to an alternative
address notified to you;
(ii) to you: at the address in this Agreement or to an alternative address notified to us.
Alternatively, if you take the Television Service or Internet Services we may deliver
notices to you by sending them via the Network so that they are displayed on your
television or computer screen.

Nollog

Abbeycraic wrote: »

www.bethrifty.ie, I think.......it all counts!!!!! :)

Oh!
So I finally got the money from that 3 thing last Christmas.
Thanks, you've put my mind at ease.

Got another email just now, they wanted to know if I contacted them, and if so what response I got.