Ruairi Quinn, Education agus an Ghaeilge.

alan85

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

I wonder how much state resources go to waste because every state document has to be translated into a language that is only spoken daily by 30,000 people. Of those 30,000 people, every single one of them has a sufficient knowledge of English to the extent that they don't actually need the Irish versions of state documents in order to understand what's trying to be communicated.

In relation to Irish as a subject for the LC, why is it that a language that is only spoken by 30,000 people a compulsory subject, yet languages such as French, German or Spanish, that are spoken by millions of people and could be far more beneficial in the long run for students, not compulsory subjects. If there is sufficient evident, which there invariably is, that a majority of students will never use the Irish language after the LC then it should be made an optional subject. Instead of wasting students' time with such an archaic language it would prove far more useful if students had the opinion to take up a subject that suits their abilities or a second European language, etc.. that will prove far more useful in the future.

If a student has genuine interest in learning the Irish language then of course he/she should be free and not denied the right to learn that language and sit it as an optional subject for the LC.

Simple logic really. Don't let others suffer so that you can spearhead your own idealism; an idealism that is clouded by some vague form of "national pride".

I say this is a fluent Irish speaker.

I hope that Rory Quinn has the same thoughts on the matter as I do.

Why don't you ask the Welsh or indeed the Scots and any other nation that have a marginal language? http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/schoolgate/aboutschool/content/3inwelsh.shtml This article shows benefits(including higher IQ) outweigh disadvantages. It isn't all about money. Your mindset is the exact type of rot that has this country in it's perilous position. A country is not a business(although responsible finances are important). When I have children they will be brought up with Irish out of not only pride but also the clear advantage intellectually and educationally it will give them.

I speak as someone that went throught the system and came out not being able to speak Irish. I am pro-reform but would not like to see it made non-compulsory. I think it's a shame there are no free Irish classes in Dublin and major cities where one could go to learn Irish. I'm sure there are many parents out there that would like to be able to help their children with their Irish homework and don't have the resources. I'm sure there must be some correlation between child and parent and how the child performs in certain subjects.

áth mór!

Permabear

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Sleepy

alan85 wrote: »

Why don't you ask the Welsh or indeed the Scots and any other nation that have a marginal language? http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/schoolgate/aboutschool/content/3inwelsh.shtml This article shows benefits(including higher IQ) outweigh disadvantages. It isn't all about money. Your mindset is the exact type of rot that has this country in it's perilous position. A country is not a business(although responsible finances are important). When I have children they will be brought up with Irish out of not only pride but also the clear advantage intellectually and educationally it will give them.

I speak as someone that went throught the system and came out not being able to speak Irish. I am pro-reform but would not like to see it made non-compulsory. I think it's a shame there are no free Irish classes in Dublin and major cities where one could go to learn Irish. I'm sure there are many parents out there that would like to be able to help their children with their Irish homework and don't have the resources. I'm sure there must be some correlation between child and parent and how the child performs in certain subjects.

áth mór!

That article is titled "The benefits of bi-lingualism". The educational benefits listed would be true of any two languages and even without the time to research it, I'd be pretty confident in asserting that a bilingual person in posession of two living language is going to reap far greater rewards from those than someone who's second language is a cultural hangover / novelty with little to no commercial application.

This would be particularly true of anyone who's second language is that of a major trading partner or potential trading partner. Spanish, German or Chinese are going to be more beneficial to a job-seeker than Welsh, Irish, Navaho or Klingon.

#15

Hopefully Quinn can get around to sorting out the issue of religious patronage during his time in the education department.

alan85

Permabear wrote: »

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Welsh is now widely used in education, with 20% of all pupils in Wales being taught at Welsh-medium schools.[34] All Welsh universities teach some courses in Welsh (most notably Bangor University and Aberystwyth University), but are primarily English language. Under the National Curriculum, schoolchildren in Wales must study Welsh up to the age of 16 and many choose to continue with it in their A levels and college years. All Local Education Authorities in Wales have schools providing bilingual or Welsh-medium education.[35] The remainder study Welsh as a second language in English-medium schools. Specialist teachers of Welsh called Athrawon Bro support the teaching of Welsh in the National Curriculum. Welsh is also taught in adult education classes. The Welsh Assembly Government has recently set up six centres of excellence in the teaching of Welsh for Adults, with centres in North Wales (learncymraeg.org), Mid Wales, South West, Glamorgan, Gwent and Cardiff. The ability to speak Welsh or to have Welsh as a qualification is essential or desirable for certain career choices in Wales, such as teaching or customer service.

20% are through Welsh medium and they support adult learning. Very different system. Although parts of it sound very attractive! I think implementing the support systems for Irish firstly, such as adult classes, would be a necessity for me to support making Irish non-compulsory from J.C. onwards.

Would you support free Irish classes for adults? I have been looking for them and can't find them. Everywhere charges and I don't have the means. I would love to see adult classes being supported...

Bottle_of_Smoke

Permabear wrote: »

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What's interesting about the A-levels is they are correctly recognised as preparation for further study and therefore no subject is compulsory.

Our Leaving cert is outdated. Originally intended as being optional, with the Inter/Junior Cert being sufficient for many jobs/trades.

So somewhere along the line ordinary level leaving cert replaced the inter/junior cert's previous role, which in effect makes the leaving cert compulsory.

I'm all for developing writing skills, numeracy and rounded education but this can easily be achieved without making someone do leaving cert english/maths.

Perhaps what's really needed here is to give a stronger status to the junior cert and make the entire leaving cert optional. Can't help but think ours must be a very expensive system for what it produces.

alan85

Sleepy wrote: »

This would be particularly true of anyone who's second language is that of a major trading partner or potential trading partner. Spanish, German or Chinese are going to be more beneficial to a job-seeker than Welsh, Irish, Navaho or Klingon.

Once you have the basic language skills from learning Irish and having learning aids, such as TG4/RG4/Road Signage, around you you are perfectly placed to go on and perform excellently at learning the commercially viable(as you put them) languages. Why would it hinder you? If anything I think it would help. Why has it to be commercially viable for it to be valuable? You could say the same about poetry, Shakespearean plays and many other aspects of the English syllabus. If everything were to come down to commercial viability wouldn't it be such a boring and scary world... This isn't commercially viable... Knock it, scrap it, kill it, etc. etc. It's a poor arguement if you ask me.

@#15 Agreed! Hopefully Ruairí will sort out religious involvement. I understand he's a fan of educate together so fingers crossed.

Bottle_of_Smoke

alan85 wrote: »

20% are through Welsh medium and they support adult learning. Very different system. Although parts of it sound very attractive! I think implementing the support systems for Irish firstly, such as adult classes, would be a necessity for me to support making Irish non-compulsory from J.C. onwards.

Would you support free Irish classes for adults? I have been looking for them and can't find them. Everywhere charges and I don't have the means. I would love to see adult classes being supported...

Not free but very cheap - http://www.peoplescollege.ie/courses.html#irishbeg

ELEMENTARY IRISH <<back to top


Lecturer: Aonghus Ó Croídheáin
This course is suitable for those who may have done Irish at school but want to go back to basics. The emphasis will be on oral Irish. By the end of the term students will be able to hold a basic conversation. They will also learn some Irish songs, poetry and seanfhocail. The aim is to re-learn, in an enjoyable way, the rudiments of the Irish language and culture.

This is a 20 week course divided into two terms of 10 weeks each - it will continue in January 2011.

Time: 6.15 -7.45p.m. 10 classes Cost: €50.00

There's also lots of stuff you can do yourself - this link has a load of very basic stuffs from youtube. Though if you spent some time on those you could easily pop into the conradh (irish speaking pub) and get chatting to people.

http://www.irishrepublican.net/forum/showthread.php?56042-15-Basic-Irish-Lessons

alan85

I didn't ask you for the link to something cheap. I am aware of The People's College anyway.

Question: Would you support free adult classes nationwide and other supports as a precursor to non-compulsory L.C. Irish?

It may be a case of reform but not necessarily cheaper. I think at the end of the day you will be stretched to save money from Irish language education. I agree, reform is key. But support that's not there is badly needed and will be fought for if reform is as drastic as suggested by FG.

Bottle_of_Smoke

yeah i would support free lessons.

Permabear

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alan85

Permabear wrote: »

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It is a drastic re-jig of things. If it's non-compulsory for L.C. you are going to have change the selection criteria for public sector and ecuation courses. I'm not saying the effects will necessarily be drastic but it is a drastic re-jig none the less. I think it will have to be done carefully. I would support it if proper supports were put in elsewhere and there was genuine grá for the language at the heart of it.

LordSutch

alan85 wrote: »

It is a drastic re-jig of things. If it's non-compulsory for L.C. you are going to have change the selection criteria for public sector and ecuation courses. I'm not saying the effects will necessarily be drastic but it is a drastic re-jig none the less. I think it will have to be done carefully. I would support it if proper supports were put in elsewhere and there was genuine grá for the language at the heart of it.

Welcome aboard alan85.

KeithAFC

I suppose Meningitis should be ignored by the Health service because Cancer is 'a far bigger issue'

Comparing life threatening diseases to a language which is hardly used in the grand scheme of things is rather silly.

deise go deo

Can people please stop using this thread as a platform for a rant about Irish.


Making Irish optional is not really an Issue, it will not happen before the curriculum is reformed, if it happens at all. This is layed out clearly in the program for government. Even FG were planning on doing it this way before Labor got Education.

This thread is to discuss those reforms. Please try to remember that.

deise go deo

Permabear wrote: »

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Whats your point? I am interested in this topic and want to know what his plans are for reforming how the language is taught. Do you have a problem with that?

If the resources (in the form of medical professionals' time) that could be devoted toward treating cancer were being devoted instead to applying homeopathic remedies, then yes, there would be cause for intervention. There are a limited number of hours in the school day. An hour devoted to Irish is an hour not devoted to something else—such as maths, science, or foreign languages, which are vitally important to our future.

So you are claiming that there is no educational benefit to teaching Irish?

It's clear from posts earlier in the thread that Mr Quinn is concerned about how much of students' time is regularly wasted on religion and Irish, to the detriment of the overall educational experience. I'm sure he'll be dealing with the issue in due course.

We shall wait and see about this. The process is clearly layed out in the program for government. Reform of the curriculum first with the possibility of making it optional after. This thread is intended to discuss these reforms, what should happen and what should not.

Permabear

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Bottle_of_Smoke

Should make it optional first, then reform, if its done that way the gaelige board will be a lot more enthusiastic about making it a student friendly subject.

alan85

Permabear wrote: »

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I'm sure there's still other sectors that would need a re-think if it were non-compulsory? Gardaí, do they still have to have compulsory L.C. Irish?

deise go deo

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Should make it optional first, then reform, if its done that way the gaelige board will be a lot more enthusiastic about making it a student friendly subject.

So instead of Reforming it, you would make it optional so that it has to be refomed?

Sounds a little unnecessary as the first step is reform anyway.

Permabear

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Lockstep

RandomName2 wrote: »

Ah... but in which dialect?

The same dialects that are being used now.

Permabear

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Bottle_of_Smoke

deise go deo wrote: »

So instead of Reforming it, you would make it optional so that it has to be refomed?

Sounds a little unnecessary as the first step is reform anyway.

Precisely. They've f*cked it up for 80 years I think they need a little incentive. This is the public sector we're dealing with remember.

Lets say they reform it first but its not made optional; it will be in their heads "well its going to be compulsory anyway, making it student friendly not such a big deal"

compared to

"right they're making this optional, we'd really better get our act together or there'll be no demand for the subject"

jimmycrackcorm

If any language should become compulsory then it should be Mandarin. China is the largest economic area of growth and the opportunities of tying into that should not be overlooked.

alan85

If any language should become compulsory then it should be Mandarin. China is the largest economic area of growth and the opportunities of tying into that should not be overlooked.

Cliché... Yawn...

deise go deo

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Precisely. They've f*cked it up for 80 years I think they need a little incentive. This is the public sector we're dealing with remember.

Lets say they reform it first but its not made optional; it will be in their heads "well its going to be compulsory anyway, making it student friendly not such a big deal"

compared to

"right they're making this optional, we'd really better get our act together or there'll be no demand for the subject"

Quick Fixes like 'Make it optional' and then leaving it to the same people who are responciple for the current system to sort it out is exactly the kind of poorly taught out FF type Bull that destroyed this country.

Your idea is critically flawed in that it assumes (rather oddly) that A) those responciple in the Dept of Education are activly against making Irish 'Student Friendly' now and that If Irish is made Optional they will suddenly become Pro-Active and want to make it 'Student Friendly'


This is not a very well taught out plan, and is not supported by any evidence. The Current set up is much better in my opinion. Reform of how Irish is taught to bring it in Line with European Best Practice and then the posibility of it being made optional.

Bottle_of_Smoke

deise go deo wrote: »

Quick Fixes like 'Make it optional' and then leaving it to the same people who are responciple for the current system to sort it out is exactly the kind of poorly taught out FF type Bull that destroyed this country.

Your idea is critically flawed in that it assumes (rather oddly) that A) those responciple in the Dept of Education are activly against making Irish 'Student Friendly' now and that If Irish is made Optional they will suddenly become Pro-Active and want to make it 'Student Friendly'


This is not a very well taught out plan, and is not supported by any evidence. The Current set up is much better in my opinion. Reform of how Irish is taught to bring it in Line with European Best Practice and then the posibility of it being made optional.

Apologies. I phrased it rather badly.

What I would do is say "from 2015 on Irish be optional for leaving cert, to maintain student numbers you need to reform its teaching"

I don't think it is in anyway odd to assume they will not be pro-active about making it student friendly, they've failed to do for the entire history of the state.

So long as its compulsory I believe they will keep the literature aspect for everyone and not change it to be taught as a spoken language

deise go deo

Permabear wrote: »

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Religion has nothing to do with this thread, please stop trying to include it.

I would be perfectly happy if A third language was introduced as a proper part of the Primary school curriculum. In my own we had French, This should be made a part of the whole primary school system. There are dificulties in that very few existing Primary school teachers have any french. But this could be over come by having French teachers that work between several schools giving classes on different days.(This was the system used in my old school and it worked well.)

Science presents more of a problem. When teaching, you have to keep within a students Zone of Potential learning. Much of what would be covered in a Science class in Secondary school would be well beyond that Zone. Teaching Boyles Law to primary School students would be counter productive. Of course there are aspects of basic that could and as part of Geography are are included in Primary school. But you have to acknolage the limitations of what can be done in terms of science at this level. Saying teach science coz its vital may sound good, but in reality before 5th or 6th class there is very little that can be done in this area.

With that said, there are things that could be taught in 5th and 6th to prepare pupils for going on to JC science, to expose them to the basic concepts etc

This is a topic for a different thread however.

Nationalistic, parochial governments once accepted that language revival and Catholic indoctrination should be the predominant functions of our educational system. This narrow, prescriptive model was challenged by the Language Freedom Movement of the 1960s—and it is now necessary to rethink again what objectives are prioritized in our educational system.

I dont see what relevance a defunct movement from the 60's has to this discussion, All tha political parties are clear on where they stand on the issue of the Irish language, as is the program for government.

There is clearly widespread support for the Irish language in the population, and all evidience shows that there is clear benefit to language learning.
I believe that Language learning should be at the core of our Education system. In my opinion, the European moddel of Mother toung +2 should be implemented.

The benefits of Bilingualism is well known, Irish is the best choice for a second language for Ireland in my opinion as it would allow not only Individual Bilingualism which would decay over time due to lack of oppertunities to use of the second language, but National Bi-lingualism where people could use both languages as part of their lives allowing both languages to be kept and passed on to the next generation.

The reason that Irish is the best choice for national Bi-lingualism is because the Building Blocks for a Bi-lingual Ireland with Irish as the second language already exist.
To change to a different second language would be costly and would not bring any additional benefit, and would be less practicle in the long run.

deise go deo

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Apologies. I phrased it rather badly.

What I would do is say "from 2015 on Irish be optional for leaving cert, to maintain student numbers you need to reform its teaching"

I don't think it is in anyway odd to assume they will not be pro-active about making it student friendly, they've failed to do for the entire history of the state.

So long as its compulsory I believe they will keep the literature aspect for everyone and not change it to be taught as a spoken language

They wont if the Government implement a policy of reform, the dept has no power to over rule government policy.