That Religion Thing?

Colm!

partyatmygaff wrote: »

If an atheist walked around Dublin tomorrow with a banner saying "God doesn't exist" and a Christian walked around Dublin tomorrow with a banner saying "Jesus is God" you can be quite sure who will receive the less hostile response.

The thing is, I'm just thinking about that now, and I'm not even sure. Who would? Both'd get somewhat hostile reaction, but I recall the Atheist Bus Campaign in London getting a substantial amount of hostile reaction for bringing atheist opinion into public space.

amacachi

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Not in this day and age certainly.

If an atheist walked around Dublin tomorrow with a banner saying "God doesn't exist" and a Christian walked around Dublin tomorrow with a banner saying "Jesus is God" you can be quite sure who will receive the less hostile response.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/05/standard_small_town_saga.php

Lawliet

I'd be willing to bet the atheist sign would get a more hostile response. If the campaign in London showed anything it's that people generally think that any religious belief is better than none.

partyatmygaff

Colm! wrote: »

The thing is, I'm just thinking about that now, and I'm not even sure. Who would? Both'd get somewhat hostile reaction, but I recall the Atheist Bus Campaign in London getting a substantial amount of hostile reaction for bringing atheist opinion into public space.

Why exactly would anyone advertise a lack of belief?

IIRC one of their adverts went along the lines of

"There is probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life"

That implies that religious people worry and do not enjoy their lives simply due to the fact that they believe in God.

amacachi wrote: »

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/05/standard_small_town_saga.php

What country do we live in? Ireland. America's situation is completely different to ours.

philologos

I don't mind if they do advertise atheism to be honest with you. It does a lot for generating discussion about whether or not God exists which as far as I'm concerned is only healthy for society.

amacachi

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Why exactly would anyone advertise a lack of belief?

IIRC one of their adverts went along the lines of

"There is probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life"

That implies that religious people worry and do not enjoy their lives simply due to the fact that they believe in God.

Gee, I don't know, maybe people would stop feeling guilt for things they should feel no guilt about. Or would live life instead of trying to get into "heaven". Or I dunno, not give their money away because the rapture was coming last Saturday...

What country do we live in? Ireland. America's situation is completely different to ours.

A country which has seperation of church and state in law which still can't manage to keep it that way. Thankfully, and ironically, Ireland has gotten far more liberal in religious terms (arguable in many ways I'll admit) than American and anything which helps to keep that liberalisation to continue is a good move in my opinion.

partyatmygaff

amacachi wrote: »

Gee, I don't know, maybe people would stop feeling guilt for things they feel no guilt about.

Not exclusive to Religion. People feel guilt if they feel they have failed themselves and their views.

Or would live life instead of trying to get into "heaven".

Define "live life". Last time I checked even the most devout of religious people "live life". Their life may not be your idea of an ideal life but it is to them.

Or I dunno, not give their money away because the rapture was coming last Saturday...

Fools and their money are easily parted. Nothing exclusive to religious belief here either. It is their own fault for believing that a man could determine an exact date and time for something so significant. Why did they pay for a huge advertising campaign? Something as huge as the end of the world as we know it does not need an advertising campaign. As I said before, fools and their money are easily parted. Not theists and their money are easily parted.

A country which has seperation of church and state in law which still can't manage to keep it that way. Thankfully, and ironically, Ireland has gotten far more liberal in religious terms (arguable in many ways I'll admit) than American and anything which helps to keep that liberalisation to continue is a good move in my opinion.

Separation of religion from state is a good thing imo.

amacachi

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Not exclusive to Religion. People feel guilt if they feel they have failed themselves and their views.

Course it's not exclusive but in the case of some religions I don't think it's healthy to be told you're a sinner no matter what.

Define "live life". Last time I checked even the most devout of religious people "live life". Their life may not be your idea of an ideal life but it is to them.

As it happens in a lot of ways I've probably lived my life more like a Christian than most people around despite my complete lack of any religious belief. However I've made the choice, I've broken free from the brainwashing I was raised in.

Fools and their money are easily parted. Nothing exclusive to religious belief here either. It is their own fault for believing that a man could determine an exact date and time for something so significant. Why did they pay for a huge advertising campaign? Something as huge as the end of the world as we know it does not need an advertising campaign. As I said before, fools and their money are easily parted. Not theists and their money are easily parted.

You asked why advertise and there you have your answer. Also I feel this is somewhat relevant http://people-press.org/2010/06/22/section-3-war-terrorism-and-global-trends/

Separation of religion from state is a good thing imo.

Yes, it is, my point is that even the nation that was set up with that idea near it's centre has moved far from it.

Jaafa

amacachi wrote: »

Course it's not exclusive but in the case of some religions I don't think it's healthy to be told you're a sinner no matter what.

What religion says that and where?

amacachi

Jaafa wrote: »

What religion says that and where?

Check out Christianity.

partyatmygaff

amacachi wrote: »

Course it's not exclusive but in the case of some religions I don't think it's healthy to be told you're a sinner no matter what.

I have not heard of any religion maintaining that people are forever sinners no matter what they do.

You asked why advertise and there you have your answer. Also I feel this is somewhat relevant http://people-press.org/2010/06/22/section-3-war-terrorism-and-global-trends/

You are confusing common sense with atheism. Foolish people will always be foolish whether or not they believe in God.

amacachi

You are confusing common sense with atheism. Foolish people will always be foolish whether or not they believe in God.

"Common sense." You seem to be ignoring one of the words in the inverted commas. Also I happen to see atheism as common sense.


I'm looking for some sources on the sin stuff, few months since I read it.

EDIT: Can't find specific quotes and not arsed looking on Christian websites but there's plenty of quotes in the bible. Given the amount of people who supposedly read the bible literally I think it's fair to say religions teach it.

partyatmygaff

amacachi wrote: »

Check out Christianity.

Christianity maintains that you are forever a sinner no matter what you do?

Perhaps certain denominations may do so... but none that I have knowledge of in any case.

If you are talking about Roman Catholicism and its view on Original Sin then that is different. Roman Catholicism is not representative of Christianity as a whole. Other major denominations hold different views on the matter.

partyatmygaff

amacachi wrote: »

"Common sense." You seem to be ignoring one of the words in the inverted commas. Also I happen to see atheism as common sense.

*yawn*

Surely you've something a bit better than that?

It's not common sense unless said "sense" or "view" is commonly accepted. We can all argue "I believe that everything that I do and believe is worthy of the title common sense" but that will lead us nowhere.

amacachi

partyatmygaff wrote: »

*yawn*

Surely you've something a bit better than that?

It's not common sense unless said "sense" or "view" is commonly accepted. We can all argue "I believe that everything that I do and believe is worthy of the title common sense" but that will lead us nowhere.

You're holding me up to a standard which you're then ignoring. That Jesus is likely or moreso to come back with in the next 40 years is a widely-held belief in America. Therefore it must be common sense?

Lawliet

partyatmygaff wrote: »

I have not heard of any religion maintaining that people are forever sinners no matter what they do.

Maybe not, but Christianity does the next best thing and claims that people are born sinners. The bible also implies that's it's inevitable that people will sin because of this as "a bad tree bears bad fruit".

partyatmygaff

amacachi wrote: »

You're holding me up to a standard which you're then ignoring. That Jesus is likely or moreso to come back with in the next 40 years is a widely-held belief in America. Therefore it must be common sense?

America is not the world. It is one country of many others.

Saying that one should think before parting with their money would be considered as being common sense as that is by and large a universal view held across the globe.

Saying that the rapture is likely to occur in forty years is not a universal view and only certain people in certain countries hold said view. Therefore it is not considered to be common sense.

amacachi

partyatmygaff wrote: »

America is not the world. It is one country of many others.

It's a huge one though. Ironically also the original secular society.

Saying that one should think before parting with their money would be considered as being common sense as that is by and large a universal view held across the globe.

Of course, and thinking is what I'd love people to do instead of blindly following someone bashing a book that makes no sense.

Saying that the rapture is likely to occur in forty years is not a universal view and only certain people in certain countries hold said view. Therefore it is not considered to be common sense.

In America it is though. In parts of South Africa it's common sense that raping a virgin will cure AIDS. It's all relative in different places. A bit like in 1994 this country just allowed divorce, not long before that it was common sense that it shouldn't be.

partyatmygaff

Lawliet wrote: »

Maybe not, but Christianity does the next best thing and claims that people are born sinners.

Does it really? Are you quite sure you know what you are talking about?

This a huge debate within Christianity. Not all Christians hold the view that all people are guilty of Adam's sin.

The bible also implies that's it's inevitable that people will sin because of this as "a bad tree bears bad fruit".

That's quite the axiom. It is indeed inevitable that all people will sin or for want of a more universal term "Do bad things". Have you ever heard of a man (Besides a newborn baby) who has done nothing bad or immoral in their lives?

Turtwig

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Roman Catholicism is not representative of Christianity as a whole. Other major denominations hold different views on the matter.

But it does represent the vast majority of Christianity. Anyways argument ad populum aside, do you believe in the rapture? If so, what do you believe happens to all those who Jesus doesn't save?

Insect Overlord

partyatmygaff wrote: »

That's quite the axiom. It is indeed inevitable that all people will sin or for want of a more universal term "Do bad things". Have you ever heard of a man (Besides a newborn baby) who has done nothing bad or immoral in their lives?

Where's the common sense in condemning a man/woman/soul to an eternity of suffering, perhaps because of a trivial immoral act?

partyatmygaff

amacachi wrote: »

It's a huge one though. Ironically also the original secular society.

China's an even bigger country. What does it matter? It is not the world in its entirety.

Of course, and thinking is what I'd love people to do instead of blindly following someone bashing a book that makes no sense.

Why are you so presuming? Not all Theists "blindly follow" everything they hear contrary to what you would like to portray.

As for the latter part of that section I quoted... Opinion does not necessarily make fact.

In America it is though. In parts of South Africa it's common sense that raping a virgin will cure AIDS.

That is not common sense. It is not sound practical judgement accepted commonly by people around the globe. It's odd and completely off the wall judgement by a certain subgroup of people in one particular country.

A bit like in 1994 this country just allowed divorce, not long before that it was common sense that it shouldn't be.

Popular opinion of a country =/= Common sense.

partyatmygaff

Malty_T wrote: »

But it does represent the vast majority of Christianity. Anyways argument ad populum aside, do you believe in the rapture? If so, what do you believe happens to all those who Jesus doesn't save?

I do not believe in the rapture.

amacachi

partyatmygaff wrote: »

China's an even bigger country. What does it matter? It is not the world in its entirety.

Because it's the third largest country in the world and is meant to be secular and is failing at that. China is the biggest and while not religious has a number of other superstitions to take Religion's place. The second biggest is India and religion has had nothing but great effects there...

Why are you so presuming? Not all Theists "blindly follow" everything they hear contrary to what you would like to portray.

Not all theists follow everything they hear, but some do. And all theists do follow something blindly. It's called "faith".

That is not common sense. It is not sound practical judgement accepted commonly by people around the globe. It's odd and completely off the wall judgement by a certain subgroup of people in one particular country.

A huge subgroup. Look at Mbeki and AIDS. You said something is only common sense if it's commonly accepted, so it's pretty damn hard to find anything that is common sense under your definition.

partyatmygaff

amacachi wrote: »

Because it's the third largest country in the world and is meant to be secular and is failing at that. China is the biggest and while not religious has a number of other superstitions to take Religion's place. The second biggest is India and religion has had nothing but great effects there...

People fight over differences in beliefs. That's not exclusive to religion. They fight over politics, they fight over land, they can even fight over something as petty as a football match.

Not all theists follow everything they hear, but some do.

There are a surprising number of people who claim to be scientific but will automatically agree with anything reported as being "scientific consensus" in a newspaper without so much as a single thought. There are also a certain few people who believe anything they see written in print or in a newspaper.

A huge subgroup. Look at Mbeki and AIDS. You said something is only common sense if it's commonly accepted, so it's pretty damn hard to find anything that is common sense under your definition.

Here's an example of something that could be considered common sense

Be wise with your money and your resources and always think twice before expending them.

That is considered to be common sense as it is universally accepted by almost all people.

Believing that AIDS can be cured by raping a virgin is not. Whether or not said group is huge in South Africa is irrelevant. They are miniscule in proportion to all other people on the planet.

Lawliet

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Does it really? Are you quite sure you know what you are talking about?

Admittedly it's been a while since I've read the bible, but I'm reasonably certain original sin gets a few mentions.

This a huge debate within Christianity. Not all Christians hold the view that all people are guilty of Adam's sin.

Whether or not all Christians actively believe in it, it is part of the theology. After all your question was about religion, not the followers of it.

That's quite the axiom. It is indeed inevitable that all people will sin or for want of a more universal term "Do bad things". Have you ever heard of a man (Besides a newborn baby) who has done nothing bad or immoral in their lives?

You missed the point slightly, the implication is that original sin corrupted people making them much more likely to sin, and so without it you would be able to find people who had lived their lives without doing anything bad or immoral.

Pygmalion

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Here's an example of something that could be considered common sense

Be wise with your money and your resources and always think twice before expending them.

That is considered to be common sense as it is universally accepted by almost all people.

Not really.

partyatmygaff

Lawliet wrote: »

Admittedly it's been a while since I've read the bible, but I'm reasonably certain original sin gets a few mentions.

It's not. There is no mention of the phrase "original sin" anywhere within the Bible.

partyatmygaff

Pygmalion wrote: »

Not really.

Le sens commun n'est pas si commun...



/Android Fascist

Lawliet

partyatmygaff wrote: »

It's not. There is no mention of the phrase "original sin" anywhere within the Bible.

I wasn't talking about the phrase but the concept. Sorry for not spelling that out.