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That Religion Thing?
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I'm not entirely I'm sure I understand your point. I do not see what would be objectionable about a flat earth model at a time where it was the simplest model conceivable and they had not come across any contradictory evidence (which they did early enough AFAIK). While a belief that the Earth was spherical might have been ultimately correct it would still be questionable for it to be assumed true in the absence of evidence. By the same token they could just assume true many other ultimately false notions. Reason and logical argument are still useful tools in this instance in that they allow us to see where the model works and where it fails/is unsupported enabling further assessment and an improved model later on.randylonghorn wrote: »For many centuries, those (whether religious or atheist) who followed logical/reason-based arguments *knew* that the earth was flat and that the sun revolved around it. New knowledge questioned that contemporary scientific dogma, and now we all know that the earth is a sphere and revolves around the sun.
I am not, by the way, arguing that it is likely that new knowledge will prove the existence of a god or gods. I am simply pointing out, despite my own personal predilection for logic and reason, that the logic and reason of one generation may look quite risible to the next. A blind belief in logic and reason (one might almost say the substitution of logic and reason as gods in the atheist pantheon!
) ignores the reality that the beliefs founded on logical and rational thinking are only as valid as the known facts which underpin them.
I'm not familiar with pre-classical era science and for all I know many may have concluded that the Earth was flat on an illogical basis. I'm doubtful that logical arguments with sensible assumptions ever concluded that the Earth was ever in near-absolution flat but rather that a flat Earth was the simplest explanation for what they had observed. Ultimately the Greeks used reason to conclude that a spherical Earth model was much more likely in the end as far as I know.
I don't really see how this changes the fact that a logical/reasoned argument is a lot more worthy of consideration than blind faith. Just because people believed something for no reason that happened to be true doesn't make it equally worthy of consideration in any practical sense.
I disagree. On principle religious views should not be afforded any more protection than that which is afforded to any kind of viewpoint about anything as there is nothing objectively different about religious ideas other than the number of people who hold a conviction in them (often just because they were encouraged to). I don't see why somebody's right to think there is an all-loving creator that interferes in our lives on the basis of prayer should be protected any more than somebody's right to believe The Simpsons has gotten worse or even somebody's right to think that blacks are malevolent aliens. Everybody is entitled to think what they please regardless of its content and I don't see why an arbitrarily chosen subject of thought should be given special protection.On issues like the recent blasphemy law, I totally agree. The right to hold (or not to hold) religious views does seem to need special protection though, or that is what history has repeatedly taught those of us who started our careers as historians (there's a hint for amacachi!).
I'm generally ignoring the philosophy of whether reality exists or not and what is truth here because of the lack of consequence. In essence making the assumption that we are not stuck in the matrix, that this is reality essentially and that truth is basically what conforms with it.Pontius Pilate: "Truth? What is truth?!"
What gives you the right to declare something as truth? Do you see yourself as an omniscient god?
Even at the most simple level, the nature of truth is contested. You might say to your mother "I got up early on Saturday, I was up at 10 a.m." She might accept that you were up at 10, yet to her, the "truth" is that you got up late ... because to her, 10 a.m. *is* late! Truth, far more than beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. And truth changes, and has changed many times over the centuries (see the flat earth comments above, for example). I have always had the sneaking suspicion that there is no such thing as actual truth.
/philosophy (sorry!)
As was pointed out the example given involved ambiguity. When I speak of promoting what is true over what makes people feel good I mean to say that it is better for us all to promote what is objectively evident even when it does not conform to the preconceptions or deeply held convictions of others. We should not pretend certain ideas are reasonable or have supporting evidence when they do not. We should also not avoid being openly critical of those ideas just because people are emotionally invested in them.0 -
I was raised Catholic and did the whole you have to go to mass every week thing. Now, I'd consider myself leaning towards being agnostic. I'm not athiest as I don't KNOW there is nothing out there, nobody can know for certain whilst they are still alive. I also find a lot of the Catholic traditions quite ridiculous. But at the same time, afetr being brought up believing in Catholicism I find it hard to just disregard all that completely.
To me, I think it is a fact that we evolved and were just not made my God, but somewhere in the back of my find I find it hard to believe that there is nothing more out there. Life just seems a bit empty if this is all there is - being born, growing old, dying, with nothing after or no other reason.
I dunno, just what I think 0 -
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flyswatter wrote: »I know two Jewish girls, it seems to be a pretty cool religion
No, not really.very wealthy people
The entire Jewish population?
but they kind of deserve it, very charitable people.
Again, the entire Jewish population?0 -
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flyswatter wrote: »Is it? It's the belief of the religion after all. Ireland probably needs more jewish people!
Their belief is that they're cool and generous?
Here was me thinking totally different, will change religion nao.0 -
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flyswatter wrote: »Nah, the wealthy ones are expected to give back to charity, obviously not everyone is in the position to do that! What problems do you have with the religion?
You'd hope that anyone who was in a position to would give back to charity. It's not a Jewish "thing".
Pygmalion didn't express any "problems" with Judaism. I really don't know where you got that from. From what I can see, he was just pointing out that you can't say "all Jews do this", just like you can't say "all Christians do that".
To be on topic: going out for my friend's birthday tomorrow night. Can't wait.
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Join Date:Posts: 28656
Anyone else ever been in a similar position where you faced an onslaught of questions because of your beliefs/lack of beliefs?
It wasn't an onslaught, but I was asked several questions by a born-again preacher in Galway a few months ago. There was a group of eight of us. We met up outside the shopping centre, and when I got there two Christians were chatting with everyone else. I kept quiet mostly, listening to the two of them. The man did most of the talking.
He was trying to explain why pre-marital sex was a bad idea, and asked us if anyone in the group knew the leading cause of cancer in young people today. He bet the sum of money in his pockets that nobody knew. I broke my silence to answer that it was HPV. My knowledge of STIs impressed him! But I didn't take his money. He asked me to think about the afterlife and the creation of the universe. Rather than challenging him (which I should have done!) I said I've thought enough about those already. They left shortly after that. I guess they figured out we were more interested in getting to our party than converting to theirs.Btw, for the census, I got my parents to put in "No Religion". They weren't impressed but they didn't push it.
I got to put that in for my entry as well. It felt slightly cooler than putting in Irish as a language I speak pretty much every day. :cool:0 -
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