Did many members of the RIC go on to join the Garda Síochána?

The Scientician

The thought just occurred to me earlier. Did RIC members routinely join the Guards, were they even allowed to?
More generally did many RIC members leave the Free State post independence for fear of reprisals etc?

jonniebgood1

Yes, Most of the RIC simply moved forces after the civil war. When the RIC disbanded the new force was called the 'civic guard' which later changed to 'An Garda Síochána'. The Dublin Metropolitan force which had been a part of the RIC force continued till 1925 when it joined the Garda. I would imagine that some members would have left the force at this stage but but most people leaving would more likely have done so during the war of independence.
http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=2283

PatsytheNazi

Quite a few RIC did join the Guards, but what percentage I cannot say. The RIC,like the British Civil Service based in Ireland, receivied pensions on their disbandment all paid for by the new state as part of the terms of the treaty instaed of the British paying them :mad:

who the fug

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

Quite a few RIC did join the Guards, but what percentage I cannot say. The RIC,like the British Civil Service based in Ireland, receivied pensions on their disbandment all paid for by the new state as part of the terms of the treaty instaed of the British paying them :mad:

Them nasty Brits sticking it to poor paddy at every opportunity :rolleyes:

PatsytheNazi

who the fug wrote: »

Them nasty Brits sticking it to poor paddy at every opportunity :rolleyes:

In plain man's language it was nothing short of extortion, the RIC etc had served the British state, they should have been paying their pensions.

who the fug

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

In plain man's language it was nothing short of extortion, the RIC etc had served the British state, they should have been paying their pensions.

No they served the state, which became the Free State, and they became the responsibility of the Free State.

PatsytheNazi

who the fug wrote: »

No they served the state, which became the Free State, and they became the responsibility of the Free State.

No, two different states, they served the British state pre 1922 and therefore the Brits should have been respondcible for their pensions for their years of service up to 1922.

Simples.

who the fug

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

No, two different states, they served the British state pre 1922 and therefore the Brits should have been respondcible for their pensions for their years of service up to 1922.

Simples.

Bet to differ, can't see a civil war breaking out over it, then again we did go to war over an oath

PatsytheNazi

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

No, two different states, they served the British state pre 1922 and therefore the Brits should have been respondcible for their pensions for their years of service up to 1922.

Simples.

They may have had a crown on their emblem, but during the 99.9% of the time when they weren't agents of colonialism, they were directing traffic or investigating burglaries or walking the beat or doing all the things that any police force in the world does as a matter of routine.

I don't want to drag things further off topic, but though they may have been under British control, they were also Irish people serving Irish people and the issue is far from straightforward. The British Army they ain't.

So I see your point, but no, it's really not so simples.

jonniebgood1

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

No, two different states, they served the British state pre 1922 and therefore the Brits should have been respondcible for their pensions for their years of service up to 1922.

Simples.

They served the state that was known as 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland'. They served in Ireland thus pensions could legitimately by attributed to the Irish state. I would imagine the same would be true of other civil servants such as teachers, council construction staff, etc. We would not want it said that such people had to rely on Britain for subsistance when we wanted credible recognition as a separate state.

PatsytheNazi

Deleted User wrote: »

They may have had a crown on their emblem, but during the 99.9% of the time when they weren't agents of colonialism, they were directing traffic or investigating burglaries or walking the beat or doing all the things that any police force in the world does as a matter of routine.

I don't want to drag things further off topic, but though they may have been under British control, they were also Irish people serving Irish people and the issue is far from straightforward. The British Army they ain't.

So I see your point, but no, it's really not so simples.

Sure they were invovled in investigating burglaries or walking the beat etc, but they also were very much invovled in opposing the IRA, routine arrest and harrassment of nationalists, supression of the Land League, evictions across the country, opposing the Fenians, Young Irelanders, Tithe War etc Very much a political police force.

They were servants of the British state - and the British should have been respondcible for the pensions in their period of individual service from X to 1922 and not the state that they had tried to stop coming about.

PatsytheNazi

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

They served the state that was known as 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland'. They served in Ireland thus pensions could legitimately by attributed to the Irish state. I would imagine the same would be true of other civil servants such as teachers, council construction staff, etc. We would not want it said that such people had to rely on Britain for subsistance when we wanted credible recognition as a separate state.

" They served" the British state and British occupation "in Ireland " and thus pensions should legitimately by attributed to the British state.

If a guy works in company A from 2000 to 2011, it's taken over by company B in 2011, company B are not respondcible for his pension payments from 2000 to 2011 !!!!

Simples

PatsytheNazi

PatsytheNazi wrote: »

If a guy works in company A from 2000 to 2011, it's taken over by company B in 2011, company B are not respondcible for his pension payments from 2000 to 2011 !!!!

Simples

Companies don't take up arms against each other. Simples me eye.

My point is that there's a certain validity to the argument, but it's very far from being the full picture. It took 90 years for the Irishmen who fought in World War I to be pardoned by a society which regarded them as traitors. I'd imagine a more nuanced appraisal of the RIC is also on its way.

Morlar

Deleted User wrote: »

It took 90 years for the Irishmen who fought in World War I to be pardoned by a society which regarded them as traitors. I'd imagine a more nuanced appraisal of the RIC is also on its way.

Worth pointing out that the RIC worked for the british govt in Ireland against the Irish Republican Army who were fighting for Irish Independence. The RIC worked daily alongside auxillaries and black and tans throughout Ireland during the Irish war of Independence. Unlike the DMP they were by and large not able to stay out of it, (though in many cases they worked either with the IRA or avoided confrontation). Obviously there were notable exceptions where they stood up for their fellow Irishmen against british oppression (such as Listowel). The Irishmen who sincerely fought on england's behalf under the pretext of fighting for 'little catholic belgium' in WWI and those Irishmen in the RIC are not in the same category in my view.

PatsytheNazi

Deleted User wrote: »

Companies don't take up arms against each other. Simples me eye.

My point is that there's a certain validity to the argument, but it's very far from being the full picture. It took 90 years for the Irishmen who fought in World War I to be pardoned by a society which regarded them as traitors. I'd imagine a more nuanced appraisal of the RIC is also on its way.

The comparsion with company's was just an analogy.

But you are right, a more nuanced appraisal of the RIC would be a welcome development in viewing Irish history. For example, it's a bit vague in my memory but in Ernie O'Malley's outstanding On Another Man's Wound he mentions how on occassions the RIC attempted to stop the British army thuggery and looting against the local people. I believe some of them also did the same to stop the burning and looting of Cork city centre. Again it's vague, but I believe in Ballinamore Co Leitrim the Auxilliary's shot point blank an RIC sargent who attempted to prevent their indiscriminate attack on the town following an ambush.

Yeah, I think they're very good anecdotes to highlight. I'd imagine the life of your everyday RIC member is quite removed from dramatic high politics - a lot of them must have joined out of economic necessity, which is why I mention World War I. Common motives existed - for a lot of Irishmen, that was the only work going.

I'd say a lot of ordinary RIC would have seen themselves as serving Ireland and its people, remote as they were from London or Dublin Castle or the Phoenix Park or wherever else. That can't really be squared with post-independence logic, but probably made sense in the circumstances of the time until 1916 or 1919 made a mess of their thinking.

To drag things back on topic, I suppose that's why many would have come over to the Gardaí after independence. Career policemen, in other words.

Snickers Man

Interesting autobiography, if you can ever get your hands on it, is Voices and the Sound of Drums by Patrick Shea.

He was one of only two catholics ever to make it to the top of the Northern Ireland Civil Service. He was the son of an Irish speaking RIC man from Kerry, I think, whose earliest memory was being brought by his father to a bonfire in 1912 to celebrate the passing of the Home Rule Bill by the House of Commons.

As a teenager living in an RIC barracks during the War of Independence he found that he had become "An uncompromising West Briton. The IRA's guns were turned against the people I loved" The fact that many of the RIC, such as his dad, would have been sympathetic to Home Rule didn't save them from the assassination squads. Several of his father's colleagues, whom he would have known from living in the barracks, were shot.

After the war, his father resigned/was demobbed (can't remember which) and they moved to Northern Ireland. I believe this was quite a typical thing to happen.

Shea became a writer of some prominence as well as a Civil Servant and suffered discrimination because of his name and faith in the Civil Service before finally rising to the rank of Permanent Secretary in the 1970s.

Wolfe Tone

My great grandfather was a RIC officer, quit and later joined AGS.

walrusgumble

Conor Brady wrote an excellent book on the history of the Gardaí, should be able to check it out in the library. It will have specific stats.

man1

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, I think they're very good anecdotes to highlight. I'd imagine the life of your everyday RIC member is quite removed from dramatic high politics - a lot of them must have joined out of economic necessity, which is why I mention World War I. Common motives existed - for a lot of Irishmen, that was the only work going.

I'd say a lot of ordinary RIC would have seen themselves as serving Ireland and its people, remote as they were from London or Dublin Castle or the Phoenix Park or wherever else. That can't really be squared with post-independence logic, but probably made sense in the circumstances of the time until 1916 or 1919 made a mess of their thinking.

To drag things back on topic, I suppose that's why many would have come over to the Gardaí after independence. Career policemen, in other words.

This is an interesting topic.
Does anyone know did the RIC just simply become the Garda Siochana after the handover or was it completely disbanded and a new force set up.

Was there a gap of time between these events? If there was a time gap did the free state army fill in while it was being set up?

Did they use the same buildings, uniforms etc at the start or was it completely separate?

Did they all have to re-apply to the new force if it was disbanded.

Also was the new free state army initially made up entirely of pro-treaty IRA or was there an exodus from the Irish regiments/battalions in the british army to the new army??

As the free state army were mostly a guerilla force before independence what uniforms did they wear at the start, did they hastily get new ones made up or did they wear ex-british army ones that were left behind in the curragh, portobello etc barracks? This is fascinating stuff!!

who the fug

Slightly off topic, did the state take over the pensions for the Coast Guard service as well

jonniebgood1

who the fug wrote: »

Slightly off topic, did the state take over the pensions for the Coast Guard service as well

Hello who the fug. The coast guard is an interesting consideration in many ways. I would imagine the state did take on the pensions of Coast guard as they would be also considered public servants. The treaty stated "The Government of the Irish Free State agrees to pay fair compensation on terms not less favourable than those accorded by the Act of 1920 to judges, officials, members of Police Forces and other Public Servants who are discharged by it or who retire in consequence of the change of government effected in pursuance hereof."

What makes it interesting is that our coast is still patrolled by the RNLI (royal national lifeboat institute). This was shown on an episode of Coast on BBC recently. The RNLI seems to be an all 32 counties Ireland entity- http://www.irishlifeboats.com/
Perhaps this is a legacy also of the Anglo-irish treaty as it stated that:

Until an arrangement has been made between the British and Irish Governments whereby the Irish Free State undertakes her own coastal defence, the defence by sea of Great Britain and Ireland shall be undertaken by His Majesty’s Imperial Forces, but this shall not prevent the construction or maintenance by the Government of the Irish Free State of such vessels as are necessary for the protection of the Revenue or the Fisheries.

I would add that this was to be reviewed after 5 years and presumably meant military defense as opposed to rescue.

Irish ports were also open for British use as part of the treaty.

walrusgumble

man1 wrote: »

This is an interesting topic.
Does anyone know did the RIC just simply become the Garda Siochana after the handover or was it completely disbanded and a new force set up.

Was there a gap of time between these events? If there was a time gap did the free state army fill in while it was being set up?

Did they use the same buildings, uniforms etc at the start or was it completely separate?

Did they all have to re-apply to the new force if it was disbanded.

Also was the new free state army initially made up entirely of pro-treaty IRA or was there an exodus from the Irish regiments/battalions in the british army to the new army??

As the free state army were mostly a guerilla force before independence what uniforms did they wear at the start, did they hastily get new ones made up or did they wear ex-british army ones that were left behind in the curragh, portobello etc barracks? This is fascinating stuff!!

There was another force or the body that made up the Gardaí, prior to the Gardaí estblishment in 1921-1922. For the life of me, I can't recall their name - I think Civic Guards.Dublin CIty still had the Met until it amaglamated in 1925

THe history of the Gardaí is actually very (surprisingly) interesting, when you look at what they went through, their sporting achievements etc. _ A time when General O'Duffy was not a mad man. Brady and another couple of lads have done some very good work on them. Pop into the muesum at Dublin Castle some time. Collins Barracks for the army,

They had their own uniform, which was made by the same people who made the British uniform. There was not too much difference to say the 1914-1918 model. Like the Gardaí, some of the force in the army was made up of a few Brits, even a Black n Tan (you can imagine the anti treaties were not happy) Moreover, there were many students of UCD and Trinity who lined up to join (expecting NCO's) despite not being there for the war - again much to the annoyance of all the force come promotion time.

I get the fealing, like all things Irish, it was jobs for the boys. Even the men of Collins's Squad (eg Paddy Daly) turned out not to be too great at leaders. Paddy along with Nelligan is known for Balliseedy (sp)

jonniebgood1

walrusgumble wrote: »

There was another force or the body that made up the Gardaí, prior to the Gardaí estblishment in 1921-1922. For the life of me, I can't recall their name - I think Civic Guards.Dublin CIty still had the Met until it amaglamated in 1925

As per link in post no. 2

Following the Civil War and the truce of July 1921 the RIC disbanded and a new police force, “The Civic Guard” (renamed the Garda Síochána na hÉireann on 8 August 1923) was formed by Michael Collins and the Irish Government. The DMP merged with An Garda Síochána in 1925.

The civic guard were given the role of 'guardians of the peace' in the 26 counties. As far as I know this is the translation of the Garda Siochana.





The Civic Guard enter Dublin castle in 1922

Taken from http://www.esatclear.ie/~garda/early3.html

Simarillion

who the fug wrote: »

Slightly off topic, did the state take over the pensions for the Coast Guard service as well

While I'm not absolutely certain, I doubt it was much of an issue.
The Coast Guard Service, was effectively a branch of the Royal Navy, and those men staffing the stations around the coast had usually signed up and then applied for more stationary positions in the Coast Guard Service. So most of the Coast Guards were Englishmen by birth, and moved over with their families.

During the rebellion and conflict in the '20s the poor coast guards like the RIC were targeted as representing the Crown and powers that be in Dublin Castle.
As a result they were added to the growing list of Irish monuments, and public buildings that were being torched across the countryside.

British warships steamed along the coast and picked up the Coastguards and their families and brought them back to Britain.

If you're very interested you can search the 1901/1911 census by occupation and you'll see that Coastguards in Ireland were a small demographic onto themselves.