Workers turn down €28k Job - because they get more on the dole

the_syco

Ironman76 wrote: »

Thank God Im in a decent industry, I am cracking up here and Im not even out of work two weeks. Another interview lined up for next week, couldnt give a flying f**k what the money is and didnt even ask.

Lasted 2 months before the boredom got to me when I was off work for ia bit.

Morlar wrote: »

a)

b)

d)

What was "c)" ?

Lars1916 wrote: »

Usually, them €1 jobs are supposed to be for so called 'low skilled workforce'...some kind of disgraceful label, I suppose

According to my German colleague, if you refuse to take the €1 job, your benefits go. You get a job, get paid feck all, and keep your benefits.

eco2live

eco2live wrote: »

Results:
€36,520 from state

€37,763 from €50k income PAYE

Difference with job = €1243 per year or €23 per week better off with the job as offered.

Link to my post:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056201698

So... you're better off on the job and you get more work experience under your belt.

Morlar

the_syco wrote: »

What was "c)" ?

To 'C' that you were paying attention.

Laisurg

So these guys are getting more than 28k a year from the state? Thats a fair bit of money.... now these guys are probably getting a lot more benefits than just the dole but to be honest i think its pretty bad that people here can get the dole and stay on it for as long as they want and are not required to go to any job interviews, as far as i know in the uk they have to actually go to job interviews and prove they are going to them and they can't turn down any job without a decent reason, they also get far less as well...

KindOfIrish

Paisley Uninterested Balloonist wrote: »

SOURCE.

Workers turn down €28,000 job because they 'get more on dole

Jesus, I've never allowed myself be idle for a day in my life - 'nor have I sponged off the state/tax payer.

I don't believe a word in this article. He has 300 CV and had chosen Romanian and Fillipino with many children. Bullsh..t

Dyr

As a fully signed up citizen of europe I am in no way bemused that a bankrupt country is paying out welfare to non citizens and I think that anyone who objects to this is an outright xenophobe.

Phill Ewinn

Laisurg wrote: »

So these guys are getting more than 28k a year from the state? Thats a fair bit of money.... now these guys are probably getting a lot more benefits than just the dole but to be honest i think its pretty bad that people here can get the dole and stay on it for as long as they want and are not required to go to any job interviews, as far as i know in the uk they have to actually go to job interviews and prove they are going to them and they can't turn down any job with a decent reason, they also get far less as well...

25.5k after tax. Take child care out of that and transport costs etc.... Still the business man could have gone on to choose another of the 300 applicants or re-advertise the position. He didn't. It's a BS story IMO.

Lawrence1895

the_syco wrote: »

Lasted 2 months before the boredom got to me when I was off work for ia bit.


What was "c)" ?


According to my German colleague, if you refuse to take the €1 job, your benefits go. You get a job, get paid feck all, and keep your benefits.

Your colleague is right there.

I was only giving out to that negative label, those €1 jobs have sometimes

Kinetic^

summerskin wrote: »

we just advertised for 4 positions, starting salary 19k plus commission, should earn no less than 25k in first year, top workers earn 35k in first year, the best is on 65k after 2 years right now, in the West of Ireland.

we had 6 applications after 10 days of advertising, gave 4 of them the jobs as we needed the staff. 2 quit after less than a week as they felt they would be better off on the dole(single people, with rent paid by the state).

No ambition, lazy arsed feckers, and there's thousands out there. i hope they look back in ten years and think "my life could have been so much better if i had just got off my arse and worked".

Surely you don't mean people would have to work for their salary and promotions? :pac:

Whether this guy has actually had this happen to him or not, it's happening out there. People who refuse jobs should be reported and have their welfare cut.

GeorgeBailey

Ironman76 wrote: »

Another interview lined up for next week, couldnt give a flying f**k what the money is and didnt even ask.

With an attitude like that expect to get paid minimum wage the rest of your life.

Spudmonkey

westendgirlie wrote: »

Did you not read what she was saying ?????

Herself and her partner currently have one child. They both work so child is in an expensive creche. Should they choose to have further children it would be more cost effective to stay at home rather than pay 2 expensive childcare costs.
She never once mentioned that she would jack her job, have another baby and claim welfare of some sort. She said her family unit would live off one income!

All in all everything she said sounded like good family planning.

Going by the crazy comments I have read so far.....a hell of alot of our own mothers should be classed as welfare scroungers! Is your mum a welfare scrounger ????

Erm I did read the rest of her comments and the point remains. If you think raising kids is expensive and you have an opinion to pass on it then don't have another. Simple as. If she has no problem then I fail to see what the point of making this comment was particularly on a thread like this.

I didn't mention welfare scrounger there, you did.

Spudmonkey

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

*waits for Spudmonkey to read the whole thread instead of cherry picking what they want to scrap over* :rolleyes:

Done. Point remains. :rolleyes:

sollar

I don't know why the dole doesn't reduce over time. Start it off at a reasonable rate then lower it each year. So by year 3 or 4 people still on it get vouchers and no cash at all.

murrayp4

I run a business in Dublin city centre. I have on several occasions offered people jobs (unemployed for over a year) for pretty much the same- circa. 26-28k and was turned down because the dole + other entitlements + nixers = more money for less work.
I was absolutely shocked and think the attitude is pretty galling for those of us who are paying our way tax-wise and actually creating jobs- only to find that many are unwilling to work for their money. These people btw were single with no kids- so family responsibilities don't come into it.
Its the first time I've encountered this attitude and I was pretty shocked tbh.

pickarooney

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

25.5k after tax. Take child care out of that and transport costs etc.... Still the business man could have gone on to choose another of the 300 applicants or re-advertise the position. He didn't. It's a BS story IMO.

He has a wife at home (who presumably doesn't work, otherwise they wouldn't get the dole) so childcare would not really be an issue.

Hannibal Smith

Spudmonkey wrote: »

Done. Point remains. :rolleyes:

nope unfortunately you just missed it.

DonalK1981

eco2live wrote: »

See this breakdown that I did for another post to highlight the injustice for working people. I was made redundant at Christmas and turned down 50k a couple of weeks ago on the basis that I got advice I would get more from an agency with my education and skills. I have now changed my mind and will take a hit to get working again. I just thought this breakdown is useful for this discussion. Please don't flame me for turning down a job in the current climate. I know.... I know...

Read my post if you want my full thoughts and conclusion on it.

I have two children and I get the following

375 per week Job seekers (for whole family)
215 per week rent allowance
70 per week children's allowance

660 per week in total.

660 x 52 = 34320 per year (take home)

+ medical card. (annual benefit of about 2000 per year to my family)

+ Back to school allowance (200)

Total = 36520 (total income from state)

I have been offered 50K so far.

To explain a bit further one of my daughters require regular medical care that used to cost about 100 per month. Other medical costs averaged out about €50 per month.

Net income on 50k is €39,483
+ Children's Allowance €2,880 (corrected as per comment)

Total €42,363

Out of that I would need to pay:

€2000 medical costs (per year)
€200 back to school (per year)
€200 per month costs for getting to work (€2,400)

Total €4,600 per year.

Take €4,600 from €42,363 = €37,763

Results:
€36,520 from state

€37,763 from €50k income PAYE

Difference with job = €1243 per year or €23 per week better off with the job as offered.

Link to my post:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056201698

And for the €23 extra you are expected to work 39 hours. Only a muppet would work for 60c an hour. It is this exact point, the imbalance or difference in handout or employment divide that stops people working. Until the gap is widened enough to make people to benefit from work there will be scroungers taking their 'entitlements' and who can blame them?

Ostrom

Paisley Uninterested Balloonist wrote: »

SOURCE.

Workers turn down €28,000 job because they 'get more on dole

Jesus, I've never allowed myself be idle for a day in my life - 'nor have I sponged off the state/tax payer.

You also cant spot a good dose of PR bollocks from a well trained scumbag IBEC lobbyist

http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/nickdavies

The statistics in his book on the proportion of media content accounted for by PR fluff and unproofed wire copy should put some context on the above

Morlar

On this thread there are have people who are posting saying:

'I am an employer and people turned down jobs down despite the good wages as they would get more on benefits',

other posters are saying

'only an idiot would take that job'

And yet there are still people on here saying 'this story is clearly made up'.

Knasher

DonalK1981 wrote: »

And for the €23 extra you are expected to work 39 hours. Only a muppet would work for 60c an hour. It is this exact point, the imbalance or difference in handout or employment divide that stops people working. Until the gap is widened enough to make people to benefit from work there will be scroungers taking their 'entitlements' and who can blame them?

That's a very short sighted view tbh, if you spend years on the dole it will have a knock-on effect on your employ-ability. It will definitely lower the wages you can expect and if you stay on it long enough can make you unemployable.

The poster should definitely keep looking for a better job, but its still better than being unemployed.

Ostrom

Morlar wrote: »

And yet there are still people on here saying 'this story is clearly made up'.

It works on evidence, and this **** happens all the time

squod

Morlar wrote: »

On this thread there are have people who are posting saying:

'I am an employer and people turned down jobs down despite the good wages as they would get more on benefits',

other posters are saying

'only an idiot would take that job'

And yet there are still people on here saying 'this story is clearly made up'.

It is made up. Are you're seriously telling me that people won't work for 28k?
Seriously?

I'm a technician, I've accepted lower wages than that. That's a first hand account for you. Not some made up third hand rumour designed to boost advertising.

Morlar

efla wrote: »

It works on evidence, and this **** happens all the time

There is anecdotal evidence everwhere that this happens. Including on this very thread from both sides, employers and potential employees. One look at the calculations of benefits vs wages shows it is likely. I am going to go with the likelihood that this story is true, considering there is no evidence whatsoever to say the man is lying. Someone saying 'This **** happens all the time - therefore this article is untrue' doesn't convince me at all.

Morlar

squod wrote: »

It is made up.

There is no proof whatsoever that this article is based on lies.

Read the thread. There are employers and potential employees agreeing with this. Do the maths.

Ostrom

Morlar wrote: »

There is anecdotal evidence everwhere that this happens. Including on this very thread from both sides, employers and potential employees. One look at the calculations of benefits vs wages shows it is likely. I am going to go with the likelihood that this story is true, considering there is no evidence whatsoever to say the man is lying. Someone saying 'This **** happens all the time - therefore this article is untrue' doesn't convince me at all.

Of course not, nor should it. Neither should I accept as fact anonymous postings on an open internet forum. The weight of evidence in this case suggests the story has another possible motivation - of course it is not certain. Either way, anecdote should never replace data, and with this in mind, posts like this are frightening;

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

Amazing, it just goes to show how generous our SW system is. Unemployment is not going away until the dole is made the least unnatractive option (financially speaking).

People dont really believe unemployment is caused by this, do they? Or that a reduction automatically creates many thousands of jobs?

squod

Morlar wrote: »

There is no proof whatsoever that this article is based on lies.

Read the thread. There are employers and potential employees agreeing with this. Do the maths.

There's no proof it is not. until the employer in question puts the story up for himself I won't believe a bluddy word of it. 300 applicants, 400,000 unemployed people, loads of qualified people I know personally who would do the job for that amount of money etc..........


The OP requires a huge leap of faith for me to believe it. I don't know the fella, but I seriously doubt his story.

Morlar

efla wrote: »

The weight of evidence in this case suggests the story has another possible motivation - of course it is not certain.

I have not seen a shred of evidence this story is fabricated.

Lumen

efla wrote: »

The weight of evidence in this case suggests the story has another possible motivation

There is no weight of evidence, there's just a bunch of people supplying anecdotes which disagree with your assertion.

Since you're basically accusing a journalist of lying and/or failing to check sources, you ought to have something more concrete than idle speculation.

Ostrom

Morlar wrote: »

I have not seen a shred of evidence this story is fabricated.

I'm talking generally. Given that we can establish nothing about the reliability of posters, and given that these media postings are generally well documented and extensive, I would tend toward the 'other motive' interpretation

I'm not arguing it is 100% fabricated, just a possibility - my opinion on my own limited experience is that it is. Of course you may equally be correct, but I think it is important to be critical, especially when stories like this usually end up undermining the motives of some 400,000 others

Morlar

efla wrote: »

...I think it is important to be critical, especially when stories like this usually end up undermining the motives of some 400,000 others

There are situations in the Irish jobs market where even a generous salary is (for some - particularly married with mortgage and children) within striking distance of the combined total of social welfare and all related benefits. This article reflects that. If this equates to undermining the motives of the unemployed then so be it. Personally I do not think it does.

angelfire9

Sykk wrote: »

If you've got a nine year old I'd assume you have enough working experience behind you to be able to demand a lot more than €30k... So what's your point? The less educated/less skilled workforce must sponge off the state to pay for their families?

The price of child healthcare is retarded in fairness though.

My point was that the cost of childcare is prohibitive for people looking to go back to work

I have a degree and postgrad qulifications but cannot find work in my chosen field in my geographical area
So i'm now looking at ANY job that will pay me a minimum of €30k per annum so i can work again!

eco2live

gosuckonalemon wrote: »

Yes but that's 37K€ less the state have to put into schools, hospitals etc.

Also, they are losing out on taxes you would have paid.

I'm not judging you, I can understand your reasoning, but you have to admit it is you and others like you that contribute to our banjaxed economy. At least you admit it thou!

I turned down one job that was not paying enough for my experience or education. This is the 1st time in nearly 18 years that I have been out of work. I paid for my own education at night during that time and have paid a shed load of tax. I paid more tax last year alone then I would receive if I was seeking a job for all this year. I am only looking for 8 weeks and did not take the 1st job I was offered on the advice of an agency and because I thought I was worth more. I don't think that you do understand my reasoning or you would see that I am off the same opinion regarding work vs dole. I have not contributed in any way to the economy and I will not. I never admitted that. I will be working soon and I am willing to take a 40% pay cut to get back working again. If everyone in Ireland worked as hard and contributed as much as I have over the years and will do in the future we would not be in this situation. I know the type of person you are talking about but in all fairness how did you come to the conclusion that I was that type of person by reading my post. I am highlighting the injustice for working people from the perspective of a working person who has always worked but not temporally finds themselves on welfare. The very fact that I am raising the point might be a hint that I am not myself part of the problem but understand it.

It is not fair on the average working person in Ireland. Not because employers are not paying enough but because FF had to keep the peace whist fueling the property boom by handing out huge social welfare, social partnership, pension and public sector increases. Employers are now competing with that legacy and the cost of living and that is not good for jobs or business. A lot of Ireland need to earn less to make us more competitive but this cant happen until the cost of living is addressed.

Money was cheap and peoples standard of life in Ireland was based on one thing and one thing alone, When you bought your house. If you where one of the lucky ones you bought early but even most of those people ended up refinancing their homes and living beyond their means. How many people do you know who was on the average industrial wage and where jet setting around the world to new york on shopping trips. The time has come now to pay all that money back and guess what? a salary is the only game in town.

I worked all the way through the Celtic tiger. I had some savings that are now gone clearing credit cards and personal loans. I was lucky because I was not drawn into buying at the top of the market as I could see the crash coming since 2004/5.

So with no debt and having worked all my life I am hardly contributing to Ireland's downfall. You can be sure of one thing. I will be part of rebuilding it and I will be carrying a lot of people who are not in as enviable situation as I am. I love this country and its people.

Lets see how many other people will take a 40% pay cut to get back to work. Also lets see how we get on with the bankers, public sector, private sector unions, doctors, dentists, solicitors etc. taking a 40% pay cut. We would not need the IMF if everyone contributed as much as I have and will.

If the new government care about getting Ireland back on track there needs to be a type of debt forgiveness. They are saying that they want to keep people in their homes but the reality is that they are propping up the residential property market. There are loads of people who would rather **** the keys back at the banks but their debts will follow them. It does not need to be that way. Just change the bankruptcy laws so that people can declare themselves bankrupt in a reasonable amount of time if they cannot service their debt even if they are still working.

They wont do that because houses and other properly are still way over priced, we own the banks and that debt and if we wright it all down in one go then its bye bye for Ireland and default is the only option for all the debt and our ability to pay the wages of the public services and welfare. Its a **** situation but I will be part of the solution and not the problem. Nama is a smokescreen for this debt.

By the way just to make another point that my family are barely coping on social welfare and can't afford the heating bills at the moment so we are not living it up on welfare. The cost of living for homes and business alike is the main problem and that is dictated by councils and state run services and artificially supported inefficient services. There are reasons why we always say "why is everything more expensive in Ireland". 1. because we will pay and 2. The cost of doing business 3. Because the Irish public repeatedly voted for cute hurs in the past. 3. We have a culture of accepting incompetence and complacency and have been bribed to accept it. Look at the health service (and I am talking about the system not the people in it).

How much of this came up in the election? Are the media asking the right questions? Do politician's even understand what is going on for the working family? I have some hope after watching the first day in the dail. Some fresh thinking and straight talking going on. I hope it is followed with swift action.

Irish people not understand that businesses are like households have rates, taxes and all the expenses of doing business in Ireland. Now they are competing with the state for people. The whole thing is a load of crap but I won't contribute to it.

DonalK1981

Knasher wrote: »

That's a very short sighted view tbh, if you spend years on the dole it will have a knock-on effect on your employ-ability. It will definitely lower the wages you can expect and if you stay on it long enough can make you unemployable.

The poster should definitely keep looking for a better job, but its still better than being unemployed.

I was illustrating the idiocy of working for in effect for 60 cents per hour! I said to widen the gap between working and welfare. How is that short sighted?

Mr Benevolent

OP you posted an article from the Independent. Might as well post one from the Daily Mail and The Sun while you're at it.

Handy rule of thumb: If it's in the Independent it didn't happen or has been hugely exaggerated.

saywhatyousee

I was reading this article about an hour ago i knew there would be a thread about it.Very clever piece of journalism notice how the they dont include child benefit in the working parents side

Knasher

DonalK1981 wrote: »

I was illustrating the idiocy of working for in effect for 60 cents per hour! I said to widen the gap between working and welfare. How is that short sighted?

Oh I agree that the gap between working and welfare should be wider. I just think that taking the attitude that you are only working for ¢60 an hour is shortsighted. Especially if you work in an area which puts a high premium on experience.

That's not to say I'd jump at the first job offered to me irregardless of the wage, just that if there were no well payed jobs out there I'd be willing to work for ¢60 an hour over welfare because I think it will pay out in the long run.

senordingdong

Why was it necessary to mention the workers nationalities while writing that article?

walshb

Paisley Uninterested Balloonist wrote: »

SOURCE.

Workers turn down €28,000 job because they 'get more on dole

Jesus, I've never allowed myself be idle for a day in my life - 'nor have I sponged off the state/tax payer.

Well if ever there was a doubt that these people are here to sponge, it is clearly rebuffed here. They are coming here to sponge, always have been and always will be, and who can blame them. It's not them that is the problem, it's this sh!thole that rewards spongers. The working man in Ireland really is the sucker here; because it's him who is funding this sham!

walshb

senordingdong wrote: »

Why was it necessary to mention the workers nationalities while writing that article?

Yes, it damn well was. Maybe if we did it more, it might ****ing sink in that these people are here riding the system, and unless we clamp down, we'll be forever rode.

Lumen

DonalK1981 wrote: »

I was illustrating the idiocy of working for in effect for 60 cents per hour! I said to widen the gap between working and welfare. How is that short sighted?

You're not working for 60c/hr, you're working for whatever you're paid.

Social welfare is not a career choice, it's designed to keep a roof over your head and food in your mouth until you're able to find employment again. If you can find employment you should take it.

Doing otherwise undermines the credibility of the system, and will ultimately result in reduction of payments to people in genuine need.

If you need a more selfish reason, bear in mind that the longer you're out of work the more difficult you'll find it to get back in, and you'll then be at the mercy of welfare handouts in a bankrupt state under a right-wing government. Good luck with that.

santiago

Can we also see the job advertisement?
A friend went for a simillar job (could be the same company) and the offer was 19k plus comission .He was told that if business is picking up he could take home UP to 28k.
19k to be on call 24/7 is not that much.

Knasher

walshb wrote: »

Yes, it damn well was. Maybe if we did it more, it might ****ing sink in that these people are here riding the system, and unless we clamp down, we'll be forever rode.

You must have a very saintly view of the Irish if you think the only people taking advantage of the welfare system are immigrants.

walshb

Knasher wrote: »

You must have a very saintly view of the Irish if you think the only people taking advantage of the welfare system are immigrants.

What have our Irish spngers got to do wit it? I am well aware that we have our own here who ride the social welfare system, as does every country on earth. It just seems ludicrous that we also have so many flocking here for one reason only, to avail of this ludicrous welfare system.

BTW, plenty of Irish on welfare who are good, honest and decent people, who need the help from the state.

And, there are simply too many flocking here who are just here for the hand outs. **** them I say!

condra

I'm on the dole, I think it's too much.
My friend is on the dole, he also thinks it's too much.

It's what 188 now? At one point a couple of years ago it was €204. Holy moly.

Put it down to 160 and you might have some money left over to improve our third world health system.

My girlfriend works her ass off in a hotel all week, gets up at the crack of dawn, spends hours on busses, and gets **** from customers.... for what? –for 300 euro, and 100 of that goes on rent.

This country is a f***ing sham.

Knasher

walshb wrote: »

What have our Irish spngers got to do wit it? I am well aware that we have our own here who ride the social welfare system, as does every country on earth. It just seems ludicrous that we also have so many flocking here for one reason only, to avail of this ludicrous welfare system.

BTW, plenty of Irish on welfare who are good, honest and decent people, who need the help from the state.

And, there are simply too many flocking here who are just here for the hand outs. **** them I say!

And surely the answer to that is to make our welfare system less ludicrous so that both Irish and foreign people who are taking advantage are stopped from doing so.

The very last thing I'd want to see is if a foreign person comes to this county to work, pays years of PRSI then looses their job being told to feck off because they aren't Irish. Or being told they can't work here because they weren't born here.

So again why do you specifically want to target immigrants but give Irish scroungers a free pass?

And by scrounger I mean people who are on welfare by choice and earning cash in hand through nixers.

MagicMarker

Haven't really read much of the thread tbh, but I just thought I'd say that if I have a family then I'm going to go with whatever option puts my family in the best position financially. If that means turning down a job that pays 28k per year then so be it.

I don't blame the people for turning down this job, I blame the government for making them better off on the dole.

Mr Cawley

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Someone get this guy a Nobel prize for economics...:rolleyes:

Where the hell do you think dole money comes from, Messi??

Ahem, 85 billion bailout, don't let your nobel prize weigh you down on your way out!

you cheeky girl;)

galwayrush

We self employed can't get the dole, no money coming in means exactly that, some weeks there is far less than the minimun wage to live on. Amazing on how little you can actually survive on when you have to.
So wrong that for some people, a 28K job is not worth the effort.:mad:

amacachi

MagicMarker wrote: »

Haven't really read much of the thread tbh, but I just thought I'd say that if I have a family then I'm going to go with whatever option puts my family in the best position financially. If that means turning down a job that pays 28k per year then so be it.

I don't blame the people for turning down this job, I blame the government for making them better off on the dole.

Absolutely.

amacachi

galwayrush wrote: »

We self employed can't get the dole, no money coming in means exactly that, some weeks there is far less than the minimun wage to live on. Amazing on how little you can actually survive on when you have to.
So wrong that for some people, a 28K job is not worth the effort.:mad:

Another joke right there, really incentivises business start-ups. :rolleyes: