Messi

Melion · 10-03-2011 6:55pm #1

Just something i was thinking about today. If his career was to end tomorrow how would he be remembered?
Would he go down as one of the very best alongside Maradona, Ronaldo(The real one) and Pele? Or at the level just below them?

Its scary to look through everything he has won with Barca and his personal awards and then remember he is only 23, probably has 10-12 years left at the top, just imagine how many Ballon D'Ors he could win by the time he hangs up his boots.

karma_ · 10-03-2011 6:57pm

I am convinced he will be remembered as the greatest player ever, leaving aside for the moment if he was injured tommorow.

He is just unbelievable, I'm old enough to have watched Maradonna play but Messi is on another level completely.

Bodhisopha · 10-03-2011 6:59pm

karma_ wrote: »

I am convinced he will be remembered as the greatest player ever, leaving aside for the moment if he was injured tommorow.

He is just unbelievable, I'm old enough to have watched Maradonna play but Messi is on another level completely.

Cue the "world cup by himself" comments...

NukaCola · 10-03-2011 7:00pm

Best player i ever seen play.....if he continues the way he has he will go down as the greatest player ever IMO

karma_ · 10-03-2011 7:05pm

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Cue the "world cup by himself" comments...

It's true, I remember that WC vividly, and Maradonna was the best player I'd ever seen until recently. I have no doubt Messi will surpass his legendary status.

dreamers75 · 10-03-2011 7:08pm

Needs a good WC to be the bestest ever, reckon he will get it sometime.

Bodhisopha · 10-03-2011 7:09pm

karma_ wrote: »

It's true, I remember that WC vividly, and Maradonna was the best player I'd ever seen until recently. I have no doubt Messi will surpass his legendary status.

Nah, nobody wins a world cup by themselves. Obviously, it was possibly the greatest individual performance in a major international tournament, maybe Platini 84 was better, i don't know...

I was just dreading the usual lines that get wheeled out in a Maradona argument...

Bodhisopha · 10-03-2011 7:10pm

dreamers75 wrote: »

Needs a good WC to be the bestest ever, reckon he will get it sometime.

Why does he need a good WC to be the best ever? Sure it would help...

Royale with Cheese · 10-03-2011 7:11pm

I never saw Maradona in his prime so I can't comment, but I think it's unfair to suggest Messi needs to win a World Cup to be considered the greatest ever. It's clear to see he's fúcking amazing and if he keeps it up for another 10 years then I think he'll have earned that title.

TheTownie · 10-03-2011 7:12pm

Has to guide Argentina to winning the World Cup to go down as the best ever IMO.

His Barca form is stunning but with Argentina, despite them having some seriously good players, it just isn't the same Messi! but plenty time for him to change that.

Blatter · 10-03-2011 7:16pm

16 goals in 54 international appearances is a really poor return considering the talent he is.

Although this stat has obviously more to do with the team than the individual.

If he played for Spain, which I'm sure he could have done seeing as he lived there since he was young, he would be remembered as the best ever now IMO.

Tbh, when I look at him I just think how can you get ANY better than this?

Paparazzo · 10-03-2011 7:16pm

The whole gareth bale is the best player in the world argument is comical when you see messi play.

TheTownie · 10-03-2011 7:17pm

The reason he has to have success with Argentina is to prove he can do it outside of Barca.

It would just put to bed any suggestion he couldn't do what he does without Xavi and Iniesta beside him.

I think he undoubtedly can do it!

Melion · 10-03-2011 7:19pm

He doesnt get the freedom with Argentina that he gets with Barca, he has to stick to one position much more rigidly than when he is playing with Barca where he can go wherever he wants.

Bodhisopha · 10-03-2011 7:23pm

Funny that his last WC was massively hampered by Maradona's ineptitude as a manager. I'd love to know his true feelings about Maradona the manager.

Liam O · 10-03-2011 8:10pm

I think it's fair to say that himself (so far anyway) and Pele had it considerably easier in their club careers than Maradona and (the 2nd best) Ronaldo. They had to constantly switch to new systems and still shone whereas Messi and Pele have been/were in their comfort zone their whole careers.

CSF · 10-03-2011 8:16pm

Liam O wrote: »

I think it's fair to say that himself (so far anyway) and Pele had it considerably easier in their club careers than Maradona and (the 2nd best) Ronaldo. They had to constantly switch to new systems and still shone whereas Messi and Pele have been/were in their comfort zone their whole careers.

Agree with this, I'd have Cristiano Ronaldo over Messi, this being one of the main reasons. Messi has proved nothing outside the comfortable confines of the best team in the world. Ronaldo has absolutely destroyed the 2 top leagues in the world with significantly weaker players around him than the ones Messi plays with. If Messi shines for Argentina or gos elsewhere and hits the same highs I'll put him in with the best player ever. Until that point, he is just the best player in the best team in the world for me. Not a bad accolade or one to be scoffed at, but not the characterisitics of one to be considered the best ever at his trade.

JPA · 10-03-2011 8:25pm

CSF wrote: »

Agree with this, I'd have Cristiano Ronaldo over Messi, this being one of the main reasons. Messi has proved nothing outside the comfortable confines of the best team in the world. Ronaldo has absolutely destroyed the 2 top leagues in the world with significantly weaker players around him than the ones Messi plays with. If Messi shines for Argentina or gos elsewhere and hits the same highs I'll put him in with the best player ever. Until that point, he is just the best player in the best team in the world for me. Not a bad accolade or one to be scoffed at, but not the characterisitics of one to be considered the best ever at his trade.

Significantly weaker players? Like Scholes, Giggs, Rooney, Tevez, Alonso, Ozil, Higuain etc. Jeez, you'd think he was playing for Wigan or something.

10-03-2011 8:29pm

He's a genius, love watching him play

Paully D · 10-03-2011 8:31pm

A poor man's Steed Malbranque.

karma_ · 10-03-2011 8:32pm

This whole argument about having to somehow prove himself in another team besides Barcelona is a load of old nonsense. Why would anyone want to leave the best team in the world? Maybe if he wasn't getting games but he is an integral part of that team and will remain so. The argument is driven I fear, by fervent Ronaldo fans who just cannot accept that Messi is by far the greater talent. Sure Ronaldo is a great, great footballer but he cannot compare to Messi in so many ways.

CSF · 10-03-2011 8:41pm

karma_ wrote: »

This whole argument about having to somehow prove himself in another team besides Barcelona is a load of old nonsense. Why would anyone want to leave the best team in the world? Maybe if he wasn't getting games but he is an integral part of that team and will remain so. The argument is driven I fear, by fervent Ronaldo fans who just cannot accept that Messi is by far the greater talent. Sure Ronaldo is a great, great footballer but he cannot compare to Messi in so many ways.

He doesn't have to leave Barcelona, he can go do it for Argentina if he wants. But a 1 club footballer who never hit the same heights at international level should never be considered the best footballer ever, considering some of the greats that have graced the world stage.

stovelid · 10-03-2011 8:42pm

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Nah, nobody wins a world cup by themselves. Obviously, it was possibly the greatest individual performance in a major international tournament, maybe Platini 84 was better, i don't know...

I was just dreading the usual lines that get wheeled out in a Maradona argument...

What makes them any more dreaded than the messi ones? The fact that you disagree with them?

CSF · 10-03-2011 8:43pm

JPA wrote: »

Significantly weaker players? Like Scholes, Giggs, Rooney, Tevez, Alonso, Ozil, Higuain etc. Jeez, you'd think he was playing for Wigan or something.

Those players (with the exception of Rooney) are significantly weaker than the likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Villa, Alves and Pedro though. Scholes and Giggs weren't in their prime, and Tevez may be getting closer to them now but when Ronaldo was playing with them they weren't at the same level.

Bodhisopha · 10-03-2011 8:45pm

stovelid wrote: »

What makes them any more dreaded than the messi ones? The fact that you disagree with them?

I'm not familiar with them, his career is still ongoing.

I'd like to hear them, if you have the time.

karma_ · 10-03-2011 8:45pm

CSF wrote: »

He doesn't have to leave Barcelona, he can go do it for Argentina if he wants. But a 1 club footballer who never hit the same heights at international level should never be considered the best footballer ever, considering some of the greats that have graced the world stage.

Best didn't have much success on the international stage but he is considered one of the greatest players of all time.

CSF · 10-03-2011 8:46pm

karma_ wrote: »

Best didn't have much success on the international stage but he is considered one of the greatest players of all time.

He isn't considered the best though, is he? Maybe if he turned it on for more of his career, overcoming more challenges he would be considered for that accolade.

Blatter · 10-03-2011 8:47pm

karma_ wrote: »

This whole argument about having to somehow prove himself in another team besides Barcelona is a load of old nonsense. Why would anyone want to leave the best team in the world? Maybe if he wasn't getting games but he is an integral part of that team and will remain so. The argument is driven I fear, by fervent Ronaldo fans who just cannot accept that Messi is by far the greater talent. Sure Ronaldo is a great, great footballer but he cannot compare to Messi in so many ways.

Tbh, we will never know how good Ronaldo would be if he played in that Barca team.

Would he score more goals/look better there? Probably

Would he be as good as Messi in that team? Maybe. Who knows, it's all speculation.

Bodhisopha · 10-03-2011 8:51pm

SOCCER4LIFE wrote: »

Tbh, we will never know how good Ronaldo would be if he played in that Barca team.

Would he score more goals/look better there? Probably

Would he be as good as Messi in that team? Maybe. Who knows, it's all speculation.

Ronaldo has never shown that he has the ethic to fit in at Barcelona. It's very much a team built around and for Messi. It's not as simple as pulling someone out and sticking someone else in.

Would Ibra score more goals and look better in the Barcelona team?

The Floyd p · 10-03-2011 8:51pm

Liam O wrote: »

I think it's fair to say that himself (so far anyway) and Pele had it considerably easier in their club careers than Maradona and (the 2nd best) Ronaldo. They had to constantly switch to new systems and still shone whereas Messi and Pele have been/were in their comfort zone their whole careers.

CSF wrote: »

Agree with this, I'd have Cristiano Ronaldo over Messi, this being one of the main reasons. Messi has proved nothing outside the comfortable confines of the best team in the world. Ronaldo has absolutely destroyed the 2 top leagues in the world with significantly weaker players around him than the ones Messi plays with. If Messi shines for Argentina or gos elsewhere and hits the same highs I'll put him in with the best player ever. Until that point, he is just the best player in the best team in the world for me. Not a bad accolade or one to be scoffed at, but not the characterisitics of one to be considered the best ever at his trade.

Call me crazy, but I don't think he was talking about Christiano Ronaldo. Maybe try this guy?

Wikipedia wrote:

In 2007, he was named as one of the best starting eleven of all-time by France Football and was named to the Fifa 100, a list of the greatest footballers compiled by fellow countryman Pele. In 2010, he was voted Goal.com's "Player of the Decade" in an online poll, gathering 43.63 percent of all vote. and was also included as centre forward in the "Team of the Decade. On 23 February 2010, Ronaldo announced that he will retire after the 2011 season, signing a two-year contract extension with the Corinthians at the same time He is widely considered by experts and fans as one of the greatest players of all time

CSF · 10-03-2011 8:54pm

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Ronaldo has never shown that he has the ethic to fit in at Barcelona. It's very much a team built around and for Messi. It's not as simple as pulling someone out and sticking someone else in.

Would Ibra score more goals and look better in the Barcelona team?

Ronaldo wouldn't fit in better at Barca, but I don't think Messi would fit in better than Ronaldo at almost any other team in the world (maybe Spain for Messi). There is something about Ronaldo's pace, power and strength that leads me to believe he could play for any team in the world and look absolutely immense.

The Floyd p wrote: »

Call me crazy, but I don't think he was talking about Christiano Ronaldo. Maybe try this guy?

I knew who he was talking about.

Dont be at yourself · 10-03-2011 8:59pm

Could he do it on a cold Wednesday night in Stoke?

Seriously though, I think he needs to prove himself somewhere else. At Barca, he's playing in possibly the greatest club side ever, so it's obviously going to be easier for him. He hasn't done enough for Argentina to dispel these doubts.

Maradona cemented his legendary status at Napoli, and if Messi wants to be considered alongside him, he should do something similar.

Blatter · 10-03-2011 8:59pm

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Ronaldo has never shown that he has the ethic to fit in at Barcelona. It's very much a team built around and for Messi. It's not as simple as pulling someone out and sticking someone else in.

Would Ibra score more goals and look better in the Barcelona team?

I understand your point but we will never know for sure.

Ibrahimovic was too slow for Barca and missed to many chances whereas Ronaldo is lightening fast and is one of the most clinical finishers in the world.

I here ya on the workrate thing, that is something Ronaldo would have to add to his game if he was to fit in with Barca's philosophy.

Leiva · 10-03-2011 9:01pm

Messi will be remembered as the best player in the World.

He has still a little bit to go like WC win etc , but unlike the era when Maradona played the WC is not as important for World exposure as what a player can now achieve at club football .
Club football has never been more globalised .

It's scary to think he could be still be going for the next 10 or 12 years . He can only get better and better.

CSF · 10-03-2011 9:02pm

mixednuts wrote: »

Messi will be remembered as the best player in the World.

He has still a little bit to go like WC win etc , but unlike the era when Maradona played the WC is not as important for World exposure as what a player can now achieve at club football .
Club football has never been more globalised .

It's scary to think he could be still be going for the next 10 or 12 years . He can only get better and better.

But will only ever be viewed as an amazing player in 1 system if he fails or chooses not to try something else.

Bodhisopha · 10-03-2011 9:05pm

SOCCER4LIFE wrote: »

I understand your point but we will never know for sure.

Ibrahimovic was too slow for Barca and missed to many chances whereas Ronaldo is lightening fast and is one of the most clinical finishers in the world.

I here ya on the workrate thing, that is something Ronaldo would have to add to his game if he was to fit in with Barca's philosophy.

I know for sure. Ronaldo, as good and all as he is just doesn't have the football brain or passing ability to drop deep and join up in the approach like Messi does. Hence the reason why Messi is miles ahead of him in assist stats.

You think Ronaldo could play in that side and beat Xavi and Iniesta for assists like Messi currently does?

karma_ · 10-03-2011 9:08pm

CSF wrote: »

But will only ever be viewed as an amazing player in 1 system if he fails or chooses not to try something else.

So a player has to play in a less technically adept system to prove he is the best. Total non sequitur.

Only the very best players can play in the Barca system, it's Cruyffs vision of total football and Messi excels at it.

CSF · 10-03-2011 9:12pm

karma_ wrote: »

So a player has to play in a less technically adept system to prove he is the best. Total non sequitur.

Only the very best players can play in the Barca system, it's Cruyffs vision of total football and Messi excels at it.

No he doesn't have to, hehas to be able to. Messi doesn't have to leave Barca, he can do it for Argentina. Up to now he hasn't shown enough signs he can do it outside this technically adept system.

stovelid · 10-03-2011 9:12pm

Bodhisopha wrote: »

I'm not familiar with them, his career is still ongoing.

I'd like to hear them, if you have the time.

You're summarily dismissing the arguments for Maradona - presumably based on a perceived boring unanimity - as dreaded which is lazy and semantic and obviously motivated by personal preference. My point is that it would just as easy - and lazy - to dread an equivalent unanimity regarding Messi if I happened to disagree with it.

My personal view is that the dreaded view of Maradona has merit: he dominated a World Cup like no other plater except Pele and Platini and played in teams surrounded by far less talent but it's more than probable that Messi (with his talent, youth and lifestyle/attitude) could surpass Maradona by the end of his career.

Bodhisopha · 10-03-2011 9:18pm

stovelid wrote: »

You're summarily dismissing the arguments for Maradona - presumably based on a perceived boring unanimity - as dreaded which is lazy and semantic and obviously motivated by personal preference. My point is that it would just as easy - and lazy - to dread an equivalent unanimity regarding Messi if I happened to disagree with it.

My personal view is that the dreaded view of Maradona has merit: he dominated a World Cup like no other plater except Pele and Platini and played in teams surrounded by far less talent but it's more than probable that Messi (with his talent, youth and lifestyle/attitude) could surpass Maradona by the end of his career.

You have put forth your opinion sensibly, i have no problem with that.

It's comments like he single handedly won the World cup with a poor Argentina side (when was there ever one of those?) and plucked lowly Napoli, a tiny little Italian club from obscurity and single handedly won two league titles for them.

You have presented facts without the usual myth making.

Good man!

theoneeyedman · 10-03-2011 9:23pm

Melion wrote: »

Just something i was thinking about today. If his career was to end tomorrow how would he be remembered?
Would he go down as one of the very best alongside Maradona, Ronaldo(The real one) and Pele? Or at the level just below them?

Its scary to look through everything he has won with Barca and his personal awards and then remember he is only 23, probably has 10-12 years left at the top, just imagine how many Ballon D'Ors he could win by the time he hangs up his boots.

this is a dangerous assumption to make IMO-here are several examples of players peaking in their early 20's after exploding onto the scene-likes od whiteside for NI back in the 80's and more recently Owen and Rooney ......he's showing no signs of this yet thankfully but we should appreciate the likes of him while he is there and not take him for granted.....

stovelid · 10-03-2011 9:25pm

Bodhisopha wrote: »

It's comments like he single handedly won the World cup with a poor Argentina side (when was there ever one of those?) and plucked lowly Napoli, a tiny little Italian club from obscurity and single handedly won two league titles for them.
!

I did say these claims had merit though even if they are often romanticized. If Maradona had played in the Barcelona side of modern times (with referee protection) he could have been even scarier. Ditto some of the Argentine teams of recent times.

One thing Messi has that Diego didn't is application and professionalism too: no drugs, witch doctors or madness but still has the alarming talent and expression on the pitch.

Bodhisopha · 10-03-2011 9:32pm

stovelid wrote: »

I did say these claims had merit though even if they are often romanticized. If Maradona had played in the Barcelona side of modern times (with referee protection) he could have been even scarier. Ditto some of the Argentine teams of recent times.

One thing Messi has that Diego didn't is application and professionalism too: no drugs, witch doctors or madness but still has the alarming talent and expression on the pitch.

Okay, sorry, i should have been clearer. It's the cliches that bug me, nothing else.

He would definitely have fared better in the current Barca team than the one he played in, no doubt about that. I'm not sure if he had the mentality to take to it as quick as Messi has done though, he's been at it for years and he's still only 23.

Turtyturd · 10-03-2011 9:34pm

I think Messi will be remembered as the best player ever, we are living through it and will probably only realise how good he was when his career is finished... the argument that he has to win a major tournament with Argentina to be called the best player in the World is ridiculous...Ronaldo hardly performs to the same standards for Portugal as he has for his clubs yet people are willing to say he is a better player.

CSF · 10-03-2011 9:42pm

Turtyturd wrote: »

I think Messi will be remembered as the best player ever, we are living through it and will probably only realise how good he was when his career is finished... the argument that he has to win a major tournament with Argentina to be called the best player in the World is ridiculous...Ronaldo hardly performs to the same standards for Portugal as he has for his clubs yet people are willing to say he is a better player.

Ronaldo has gone to 2 leagues and been absolutely unbelievable. Messi doesn't have to win a major tournament for Argentina for me, just produce the same world class form there consistently, or go to another team (for me preferably the English league to see how exactly he copes with the physicality) and produce it again. Upto now we've only seen Messi produce that football in a team built around him with the best and most suitable players in the world to fit him.

UpTheSlashers · 10-03-2011 10:00pm

Messi can be the best but, for me, he needs to do it at international level too.

Mister men · 10-03-2011 10:06pm

Messi is the best right now but Pele imo is the best ever. If he continues playing like he is now for another few years he will become the greatest ever. Just watched his goal versus Arsenal again and i think it got lost in a lot of the RVP bitterness just how good a finish it was. He will be the first 100m quid player at some stage within the next few seasons i think.

#15 · 10-03-2011 10:20pm

Messi is not lucky to be playing in such a fantastic club team. He is the main reason they are such an incredible team IMO.

That said, it's very hard to say that there is one best ever player IMO.

He's certainly in the highest echelon of players though.

Son Of A Vidic · 10-03-2011 10:28pm

I judge a great player by what is done on the greatest stage - the World Cup. At last years World Cup I thought Messi was an embarrassment, when it was time to truly walk the walk he failed. An icon like Maradona, he will never be.

stovelid · 10-03-2011 10:34pm

Bodhisopha wrote: »

he's been at it for years and he's still only 23.

Maradona arguably greatest period as a player was between 23 and 26.

parker kent · 10-03-2011 10:38pm

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I judge a great player by what is done on the greatest stage - the World Cup. At last years World Cup I thought Messi was an embarrassment, when it was time to truly walk the walk he failed. An icon like Maradona, he will never be.

The World Cup is not the greatest stage any more, the Champions League has a higher percentage of the best players in the world. The 25 years since 1986 has seen untold changes in club and international football. The World Cup still is the most iconic trophy, but not the greatest test.

He was far from an embarrassment either, don't get fooled into the goals=great player thing. He played well in the position he was played in. Plus he was close to scoring a lot of goals anyway, hitting the post several times, great saves etc.

Anyway, you can't have one single "greatest". You cannot compare eras.

Messi

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