Messi

seafood dunleavy

I don't necessarily think he needs to win a World Cup seeing as he's won a Champions League which Pele and Maradona have never won I don't think.

redout

Melion wrote: »

Just something i was thinking about today. If his career was to end tomorrow how would he be remembered?
Would he go down as one of the very best alongside Maradona, Ronaldo(The real one) and Pele? Or at the level just below them?

Its scary to look through everything he has won with Barca and his personal awards and then remember he is only 23, probably has 10-12 years left at the top, just imagine how many Ballon D'Ors he could win by the time he hangs up his boots.

I reckon about 2 more and thats his lot - someone else will emerge soon enough. Doesnt mean he will stop being a great player.

Pauleta

IMO the likes of Messi and CR7 are superior to anything previous apart from maybe Ronaldo. Unfortunately the football world seems to reject the fact that sport evolves and keeps getting better and the likes of Pele and Maradona will always be better. I dont think Messi needs to do anything in International football either. International football is irrelevant now. Its all about the champions league, which is of a much higher standard.

eZe^

I love how people ride off some of his achievements with Barca because 'he is playing in the best team in the world'. He's the player who makes it the best team in the world ffs, Messi's absence to this Barca team would be more significant than any other player.


He'll prove it with Argentina too, he is now playing in his most favourable position under Batista, he is looking a much better player.

Messi has 27 goals and 15 assists in 24 La Liga appearances lads, he is contributing close to 2 goals per game ffs. Ability wise he is well up there with Pele and Maradona, but so was Ronaldinho, he needs to prove he has the consistency now over the next decade.

TonyD79

eZe^ wrote: »

I love how people ride off some of his achievements with Barca because 'he is playing in the best team in the world'. He's the player who makes it the best team in the world ffs, Messi's absence to this Barca team would be more significant than any other player.

Inniesta and Xavi are the reason Barca and Spain are the best in the world.

parker kent

Pauleta wrote: »

IMO the likes of Messi and CR7 are superior to anything previous apart from maybe Ronaldo. Unfortunately the football world seems to reject the fact that sport evolves and keeps getting better and the likes of Pele and Maradona will always be better.

Again you cannot compare eras in a like-for-like manner. Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo (lets not jerk him off by calling him CR7) benefit from playing on modern pitches, with modern equipment and with modern rules. Obviously they also must deal with modern defensive organisation, but it is a totally different proposition. You cannot blame Pele and Maradona for not having the same fitness levels of players in 2011. They were as fit as anybody else in their era at their peak, so it is much of a muchness.

It would be interesting to see them play on mud baths, with heavy balls (ooh matron) and having some lunatic hacking them to bits. I always think the best players will be the best players in any era, but it is not possible to know. The players that excel in one era, may only excel because the rules and conditions suit their abilities better in that era than any other era.

All you can be is the best in your era.

Theresalwaysone

Dont know if its been mentioned yet but he has 92 goals in last 93 games and 45 for 40 this season.

What does that make his implied value?

Le King

4 more years and he will be the best. Ronaldinho could of done it had he not fallen like a bag of elephants.

#15

TonyD79 wrote: »

Inniesta and Xavi are the reason Barca and Spain are the best in the world.

Messi is the reason why Barca are so much more dynamic and cutting-edge than Spain.

Iniesta and Xavi are amongst the best of their generation. Messi is amongst the best to ever step foot on a pitch.

Turtyturd

CSF wrote: »

Ronaldo has gone to 2 leagues and been absolutely unbelievable. Messi doesn't have to win a major tournament for Argentina for me, just produce the same world class form there consistently, or go to another team (for me preferably the English league to see how exactly he copes with the physicality) and produce it again. Upto now we've only seen Messi produce that football in a team built around him with the best and most suitable players in the world to fit him.

Even if Messi were to go the premier league it would be impossible to make a comparison between him and Ronaldo. Ronaldo came to the premier league when he was 18-19, relatively unknown and was given time to adapt to the physicality. Messi would come in with a reputation as the best player in the world and if he took more than a few games to adapt then he would be written off. Although if a player of David Silva's physique can manage it I have no doubts Messi could.

I think no matter what team Messi played for it would be tailored to make him the focal point. What is the point in having him if you are not going to do that?

gustavo

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I judge a great player by what is done on the greatest stage - the World Cup. At last years World Cup I thought Messi was an embarrassment, when it was time to truly walk the walk he failed. An icon like Maradona, he will never be.

Ithought he was one of their best players

Theresalwaysone

Are people seriously doubting if Messi could do it in the premiership?

Andy Gray, the buffoon, obviously still having an influence on the minds of the English Football massif.

Messi would be fantastic no matter what league he is in.

Turtyturd

gustavo wrote: »

Ithought he was one of their best players

Agreed...If you look the fact that he didn't score then it might seem like he had a terrible World Cup but if you watched any of the games he was one of their best players.

TheTownie

#15 wrote: »

Messi is the reason why Barca are so much more dynamic and cutting-edge than Spain.

Iniesta and Xavi are amongst the best of their generation. Messi is amongst the best to ever step foot on a pitch.

Ya but Xavi and Iniesta are the reason Spain are so much better than Argentina.

1mcampo1

My opinion is if you took Messi out of the Barca team, there are players thats can step into that role (Iniesta, Villa, Pedro, Bojan to and extent)

but if you took Xavi out of the team, there is no one in the squad that can play the role he does so well (Iniesta would be the nearest thing)

el dude

Melion wrote: »

Just something i was thinking about today. If his career was to end tomorrow how would he be remembered?
Would he go down as one of the very best alongside Maradona, Ronaldo(The real one) and Pele? Or at the level just below them?

Its scary to look through everything he has won with Barca and his personal awards and then remember he is only 23, probably has 10-12 years left at the top, just imagine how many Ballon D'Ors he could win by the time he hangs up his boots.

Easily already at Ronaldo's level in the history books IMO. Not quite up there with the other two.....neither is Ronaldo fwiw.

I'm not one who thinks he has to win a WC either. If he does what he's doing now for even another three seasons then he's going down as one of very very players ever no matter what.

Dolph Starbeam

He is on 46 goals for this season, with if he plays all of Barca's remaining games, 17 afaik, he will actually have a great chance of breaking the 60 goal barrier, that would really really cement his place as the best for me.

He is easily the greatest player i've ever seen play, the stuff he does with the ball is ridiculous.

dreamers75 wrote: »

Needs a good WC to be the bestest ever, reckon he will get it sometime.

A good WC, he already had one, SA 2010 he played good in all of his games, just because he didn't score the media said he was rubbish, he was Argentina's best player by a mile and did his best to single handidly drag them through.


Does this really need a new thread too, there is already Lionel Messi Appreciation thread.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055519293&page=6&highlight=messi+appreciation+thread

Dolph Starbeam

theoneeyedman wrote: »

this is a dangerous assumption to make IMO-here are several examples of players peaking in their early 20's after exploding onto the scene-likes od whiteside for NI back in the 80's and more recently Owen and Rooney ......he's showing no signs of this yet thankfully but we should appreciate the likes of him while he is there and not take him for granted.....

In fairness the way Whiteside carried on off the pitch he was never going to last, Messi on the other hand will. I do agree that it is a hard assumption to say he'll be around at the very top for another 10-12 years though.

I'd say in his current position he will be able to play there at his best until about 30, But he has all the talent int he world to be able to drop back when he loses his lightning pace to be able to play where Xavi plays.

dreamers75

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Why does he need a good WC to be the best ever? Sure it would help...

People only remember WC players. its just the way it is (rightfully i may add no ****ing money in playing for your country its you playing for your country).

Some french lad played for Man United, they voted him their best ever player. Other people think of brilliant french players and Platini, Zidane and Tigana spring to mind. its simple because a WC is where the world sees you and you play vs the world. Thats how players are remembered.

The same logic applies to Messi, he doesnt have to win the WC on his own just perform at it.

Bodhisopha

dreamers75 wrote: »

People only remember WC players. its just the way it is (rightfully i may add no ****ing money in playing for your country its you playing for your country).

Some french lad played for Man United, they voted him their best ever player. Other people think of brilliant french players and Platini, Zidane and Tigana spring to mind. its simple because a WC is where the world sees you and you play vs the world. Thats how players are remembered.

The same logic applies to Messi, he doesnt have to win the WC on his own just perform at it.

Say whaaaaat?

What point are you making regarding French players? Only one of those listed won a world cup and i think it's safe to say that Messi will go down in history as a better player than Zidane. World cup or not.

Paully D

He's a fantastic player who won't ever leave Barcelona but that doesn't mean he can't go down as one of the best ever.

At 23 years of age he's already won 2 Champions Leagues, 4 La Liga's, many domestic cups and a list of individual honours as long as anyone.

For those saying he has to do it in the World Cup to go down as great. Well, as I said he's only 23 and he has over 50 caps. He possibly has another 3 World Cup's left, and in all honesty Argentina might as well have had no manager last summer as Maradona was a joke. In the 2006 World Cup he was only a kid (albeit an astonishingly talented one). Argentina haven't done well in World Cup's for years anyway, the last time they got past the QF was in 1990 when Messi was 3 years old and these days I don't feel it's possible for one player, no matter how good they are, to win a World Cup on their own. People claim Maradona did that, but the truth is that he had a talented team and coaching staff who assisted superbly.

Messi or Ronaldo? Both absolutely fantastic players for me and a joy to watch, but I'd have to go for Messi.

Finally, to answer the OP's question, if his career was to end tomorrow I think he'd be remembered something along the lines of ''someone who would have become the best player the game has ever seen''.

At 23 years of age in terms of pure talent I'd put him in the same league as Pele, Maradona etc, but I'd always say he could have achieved so much more over the next number of years. However, I know in my heart of hearts that when he retires in around 12 years time (with the way fitness methods have evolved over the years it's possible he could go on even longer) that Messi's going to be the player I tell my grand-kids about, in the same way my grandfather speaks of Pele etc.

Liam O

I don't really see how anyone can say Messi is so much better than C.Ronaldo tbh. Same amount of goals and plenty of assists but it's fair to say Messi has better players beside him capable of finishing the chances he puts in front of them. Higuain is out now and Benzema isn't a patch on Villa and Di Maria, as good as he's been, is nowhere near as good a finisher as Pedro. Still you can only deal with what's put in front of you and Messi has obviously done that superbly as has Ronaldo.

The overall standard of defenses in Spain is shocking though and neither player should have been allowed near the amount of goals/assists they have and IMO there's no way they'd score near as many in the PL as they score in Spain. They'd still be the 2 best players and the 2 top scorers but not near the amount that they have now.


Ronaldo doesn't get near the amount of respect Messi does though and that's where my main problem is and it's making me start to really dislike Barca as a whole, a team that you could probably class me as a supporter of a couple of years ago, I have 4 or 5 Barca jerseys and went over to see them a couple of years ago (granted they changed the date of the game 10 days before and I couldn't change flights so I couldn't see it ). I don't believe they are as good as they are being made out to be. They are shown way to much respect and I'd like to see what would have happened if the ref didn't send RVP off the other night. I don't think Barca will win the CL and again someone will shut them down and excuses will be made. I was shocked by the disrespect they showed Inter last season after they went out.

CorkMan

Ronaldo is better IMO. It only took him 51 games to get 50 goals for Madrid, beating greats such as Puskas and Di Stefano.

The record in the league for most goals is held by Hugo Sanchez and Zarro, both 38 goals. (Sanchez 1989-90, Zarra 1950-51) Both Ronaldo and Messi could beat it! Ronaldo has 27 goals in 26 games, Messi 27 goals in 24 games.

karma_

Liam O wrote: »

I don't really see how anyone can say Messi is so much better than C.Ronaldo tbh. Same amount of goals and plenty of assists but it's fair to say Messi has better players beside him capable of finishing the chances he puts in front of them. Higuain is out now and Benzema isn't a patch on Villa and Di Maria, as good as he's been, is nowhere near as good a finisher as Pedro. Still you can only deal with what's put in front of you and Messi has obviously done that superbly as has Ronaldo.

The overall standard of defenses in Spain is shocking though and neither player should have been allowed near the amount of goals/assists they have and IMO there's no way they'd score near as many in the PL as they score in Spain. They'd still be the 2 best players and the 2 top scorers but not near the amount that they have now.


Ronaldo doesn't get near the amount of respect Messi does though and that's where my main problem is and it's making me start to really dislike Barca as a whole, a team that you could probably class me as a supporter of a couple of years ago, I have 4 or 5 Barca jerseys and went over to see them a couple of years ago (granted they changed the date of the game 10 days before and I couldn't change flights so I couldn't see it ). I don't believe they are as good as they are being made out to be. They are shown way to much respect and I'd like to see what would have happened if the ref didn't send RVP off the other night. I don't think Barca will win the CL and again someone will shut them down and excuses will be made. I was shocked by the disrespect they showed Inter last season after they went out.

CorkMan wrote: »

Ronaldo is better IMO. It only took him 51 games to get 50 goals for Madrid, beating greats such as Puskas and Di Stefano.

The record in the league for most goals is held by Hugo Sanchez and Zarro, both 38 goals. (Sanchez 1989-90, Zarra 1950-51) Both Ronaldo and Messi could beat it! Ronaldo has 27 goals in 26 games, Messi 27 goals in 24 games.

He is so obviously not better it could not possibly be any more blatant.

Like I said earlier, Ronaldo is a great player, but he is just not technically as good as Messi, he doesn't work as hard, he does not have the same attitude as Messi nor has he the same vision and guile on the field of play. If you can watch both players it should be plain to any observer this is the case.

You pair seem to be basing your opinion on the amount of goals scored but that is not the sum of the parts of a player alone.

nullzero

Messi is a brilliant player, but I really can't see him being remembered as the best ever.

It's my opinion that football on the whole isn't as good as it was 10-15 years ago, especially in terms of the amount of extremely talented players in the game.
The athleticism these days is the best it's ever been but we see so few genuinely brilliant players nowadays that we possibly lose perspective somewhat.

That's not to write off Messi's potential to win everything in the game and prove me wrong but as great as he is the great players of the past will always rank that bit higher than him, in my mind at least.

Xavi6

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

I judge a great player by what is done on the greatest stage - the World Cup. At last years World Cup I thought Messi was an embarrassment, when it was time to truly walk the walk he failed. An icon like Maradona, he will never be.

You must not rate that Giggs fella so.

Blatter

Xavi6 wrote: »

You must not rate that Giggs fella so.

Yeah hes ****.

Klose is also up there with Ronaldo as one of the best strikers of all time too.:pac:

The World Cup really means Jack **** these when determining how good a player is.

Theresalwaysone

nullzero wrote: »

Messi is a brilliant player, but I really can't see him being remembered as the best ever.

It's my opinion that football on the whole isn't as good as it was 10-15 years ago, especially in terms of the amount of extremely talented players in the game.
The athleticism these days is the best it's ever been but we see so few genuinely brilliant players nowadays that we possibly lose perspective somewhat.

That's not to write off Messi's potential to win everything in the game and prove me wrong but as great as he is the great players of the past will always rank that bit higher than him, in my mind at least.

This is so wrong on so many levels.

Firstly it goes against the very basic fundamental principle of human interaction. It claims we don't learn. The players these days are so much better in every sense than those before them, similarly, the players in 10-15 years time will be so much better than those now. Its human nature to learn, adapt and improve.

Another funny human trait is nostalgic bias, "things were so much better in the old says". Horsecrap. No they werent. The great players of yore were undoubtedly great in their own day, relatively speaking but stack your Maradona's and Pele's, Di Stefanos and Puksa's in their prime up against todays elite and they will get shown up.

The human body is more understood, the physioglogy of atheletics and soccer has come on leaps and bounds compared to how it was. The tactical awareness has 20, 30, 40 and sometimes 50 more years knowledge. Similarly, technical ability and the way it is taught can use the experience of older generations like in every other walk of life.

You can say "But Maradona had talent and would fit in any generation"- but thats not really the point. Plus "Talent" as most people view it, is massively overrated.

Messi's the best so far.

Blatter

Bodhisopha wrote: »

I know for sure. Ronaldo, as good and all as he is just doesn't have the football brain or passing ability to drop deep and join up in the approach like Messi does. Hence the reason why Messi is miles ahead of him in assist stats.

You think Ronaldo could play in that side and beat Xavi and Iniesta for assists like Messi currently does?

I'm sorry but unless you have a crystal ball sitting on front of you then you don't know. It's impossible to write off how good a player like Ronaldo would do in that Barca side.

If he can get 70 goals in 75 appearances in that Madrid team, then God only knows how many he could potentially get with Xavi, Iniesta, Villa, Pedro and Alves playing with him. No disrespect to the current Madrid players like Alonso, Ozil, Higuain and Ramos, but the Barca boys are on a different level.

He would probably get more assists at Barca, purely because there are better players there to finish the chances he creates. And I think most people would agree he would have a better chance of scoring more goals there.

Again, it's all speculation. But there is definitely grounds to argue that Messi has a distinct advantage over Ronaldo by playing in that Barca side, whilst we are debating which one is better. There is no doubt about this.

Liam O

for the record, Ronaldo does have more assists than Xavi and Iniesta, as does Ozil and Di Maria. So do Pedro and Dani Alves. Doesn't prove anything IMO.

Blatter

Liam O wrote: »

for the record, Ronaldo does have more assists than Xavi and Iniesta, as does Ozil and Di Maria. So do Pedro and Dani Alves. Doesn't prove anything IMO.

Agreed.

Assist statistics ate overrated. Ronaldo has one more assist this season, Than Messi managed in the whole of last season. What does that tell us? Nothing.

My honest opinion is that it will be tit for tat between the two of them for the next few years.

Ronaldo was better in 2007-08. Messi better in 08-09 and 09-10. This season they are pretty much equal IMO. Next season and the season after that? Who knows?

karma_

SOCCER4LIFE wrote: »

I'm sorry but unless you have a crystal ball sitting on front of you then you don't know. It's impossible to write off how good a player like Ronaldo would do in that Barca side.

If he can get 70 goals in 75 appearances in that Madrid team, then God only knows how many he could potentially get with Xavi, Iniesta, Villa, Pedro and Alves playing with him. No disrespect to the current Madrid players like Alonso, Ozil, Higuain and Ramos, but the Barca boys are on a different level.

He would probably get more assists at Barca, purely because there are better players there to finish the chances he creates. And I think most people would agree he would have a better chance of scoring more goals there.

Again, it's all speculation. But there is definitely grounds to argue that Messi has a distinct advantage over Ronaldo by playing in that Barca side, whilst we are debating which one is better. There is no doubt about this.

The blunt truth of the matter is that Ronaldo would not get into that Barca side, he just wouldn't fit. Stupid argument anyway, you are judging Messi by the players around him, but you judge Ronaldo on his own merits.

parker kent

SOCCER4LIFE wrote: »

Yeah hes ****.

Klose is also up there with Ronaldo as one of the best strikers of all time too.:pac:

The World Cup really means Jack **** these when determining how good a player is.

Well that's not true either. Anybody that says it is the only way or has no meaning is being over the top. Obviously the most prestigious tournament i football has an impact.

As for Messi v C Ronaldo, Messi is comfortably a better player. Messi gets as many goals as Ronaldo (more this season) and plays a massive role in the game. Ronaldo scores goals and does jack shít otherwise. Things like Messi's workrate at getting the ball back are part of what make him great. Ronaldo can be kept out of a game, Messi can't. Ronaldo would be like Ibrahimovic (not saying they are are at the same talent level) in the Barca team in my view, you cannot have somebody in there who will not put the effort in at getting the ball back. Too many people treat soccer as something that can be dissected by stats. Whilst Messi has awesome stats, there is more to it than that.

If Messi's career ended tomorrow, he would be remembered as one of the best players ever. A great WC would, whilst not being necessary, help seal his place at the top. If he follows Maradona's career, he should dominate the next one. Maradona was left out 1978 and had a miserable 1982. Messi whilst at the 2006 WC, hardly played and had a relatively poor WC (relative to his own standards as he wasn't actually that bad).

Not sure how Brazilians would feel watching Messi list the World Cup in the Maracana!

eagle eye

Messi will go down in history as one of the greatest of all time. He needs to do it in a World Cup to join Pele, Maradona, Ronaldo, Zidane and the likes. Its not just about club football, you have to show your brilliance for your country too.

As for the Messi vs C.Ronaldo argument. Well its Messi for me, he as good if not better than him as an individual footballer but he is also a team player. He works so much harder off the ball than C.Ronaldo. For me C.Ronaldo will be compared to players like Hristo Stoichkov, Thierry Henry and the likes. Basically great individually talented players but not great team players. For me Xavi will be higher on the all-time list than C.Ronaldo.

gimmick

eagle eye wrote: »

Messi will go down in history as one of the greatest of all time. He needs to do it in a World Cup to join Pele, Maradona, Ronaldo, Zidane and the likes. Its not just about club football, you have to show your brilliance for your country too.

I do not understand this. Why does a player absolutely have to win a worlsd cup, or light it up to be remembered as an all time great? George Best is still remembered as one of, if not the greatest player of them all afterall.

Corvus Maximus wrote:

At last years World Cup I thought Messi was an embarrassment, when it was time to truly walk the walk he failed. An icon like Maradona, he will never be.

Sorry, but that is not just wrong, its crazy. Messi, despite not scoring, had quite a decent world cup. How many times did he hit the post/cross bar? How many times did the Nigerian keeper pull out top drawer saves in his MOTM performance? Sure, people expected more from him, fair enough, but to say he was an embarrassment? Nonsense. We also have to remember that was a very poor Argie side with a god awful manager.

If Messi continues as he is going, he will be the greatest of them all. He is on course at the moment to have scored 100 goals in 2 seasons. He has won every club honour possible with Barca. He will win every club honour again. He will win the Ballon D'or a number more times before he quits.

Re the CR7 argument. Meh, there is a long ass thread on that already.

iregk

Xavi6 wrote: »

You must not rate that Giggs fella so.

Lets not forget George Best. He never played in a world cup so he is even more rubbish than say Lampard, Gerrard and Rooney who were all poor at any world cup they've ever played in.

eagle eye

gimmick wrote: »

I do not understand this. Why does a player absolutely have to win a worlsd cup, or light it up to be remembered as an all time great? George Best is still remembered as one of, if not the greatest player of them all afterall.

Well particularly in the Messi case the World Cup is important. Its highly unlikely that he will ever play for another club team and the team he currently is playing with is full of World Cup winners and great players in their own right.

You got Xavi, Puyol and Villa who will be talked about as greats of the game when they retire. You got Iniesta, Pique, Pedrito and Busquets to make that 7 players who started the World Cup final. Then you have Dani Alves who is considered by many to be the best right back in World football. He played with Ronaldinho and Eto'o too.

He has to show he can do it with his country. The George Best comparison is not a good one. Firstly he came from a very small unsuccessful country and secondly he is rated as one of the greats by people in Britain and Ireland and not so much outside there.

A good example if you want one would be Dejan Savicevic who for me is one of the best players to ever put on a pair of boots but you don't hear people raving about him outside of the former Yugoslavia and Milan.

Blatter

parker kent wrote: »

Well that's not true either. Anybody that says it is the only way or has no meaning is being over the top. Obviously the most prestigious tournament i football has an impact.

As for Messi v C Ronaldo, Messi is comfortably a better player. Messi gets as many goals as Ronaldo (more this season) and plays a massive role in the game. Ronaldo scores goals and does jack shít otherwise. Things like Messi's workrate at getting the ball back are part of what make him great. Ronaldo can be kept out of a game, Messi can't. Ronaldo would be like Ibrahimovic (not saying they are are at the same talent level) in the Barca team in my view, you cannot have somebody in there who will not put the effort in at getting the ball back. Too many people treat soccer as something that can be dissected by stats. Whilst Messi has awesome stats, there is more to it than that.

If Messi's career ended tomorrow, he would be remembered as one of the best players ever. A great WC would, whilst not being necessary, help seal his place at the top. If he follows Maradona's career, he should dominate the next one. Maradona was left out 1978 and had a miserable 1982. Messi whilst at the 2006 WC, hardly played and had a relatively poor WC (relative to his own standards as he wasn't actually that bad).

Not sure how Brazilians would feel watching Messi list the World Cup in the Maracana!

Well I don't judge players that we already know are very good by their WC performances anymore as the standard of International football has decreased dramatically due to the fact too many players are out of touch with reality due to their wages and do not give a **** about their country. This is one of the reasons International football teams look disjointed alot of the time(apart from the fact they don't play regularly) and most of the games are boring. Too much of the passion and pride of one playing for their country is gone.

On Ronaldo, it's all about personal preference. If you want somebody that's more direct, big, strong, can head the ball, excellent stamina and good at set pieces then it's Ronaldo. If you want more of a link up player who is an excellent passer/vision and has very good workrate, then it's Messi. You cannot say that ''Messi is comfortably better'', you can't blame anybody for chosing one over the other.

gimmick

The Argies were a heavy hitter internationally, but they have not won the World Cup in over 2 decades, and have not passed the semis since 1990. They have not won the Copa since the early 90s. One player cannot change this. They are a bit like Liverpool. Good long term history, poor recent.

I do not think Messi should be thought less of because his nation of birth are floundering internationally.

And, I think this is an important point, there is alot more mass put on club football now than what there was in the past.

Blatter

karma_ wrote: »

The blunt truth of the matter is that Ronaldo would not get into that Barca side, he just wouldn't fit. Stupid argument anyway, you are judging Messi by the players around him, but you judge Ronaldo on his own merits.

No, the blunt truth of the matter is that Ronaldo would comfortably make it into any side in the world, including Barcelona. To suggest otherwise is a nonsense.

Where did I ever solely judge Messi by the players around him? I said he has an advantage over Ronaldo in that regard, which is clearly true. You are taking what I said out of context.

Davaeo09

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Funny that his last WC was massively hampered by Maradona's ineptitude as a manager. I'd love to know his true feelings about Maradona the manager.

Exactly, as for doing it outside of Barca. His goal against Mexico, his goal against Brazil, his average (by his own standards) world cup.

and if your judging Messi by his international games then Ronaldo shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as Pelé or Maradona.

Davaeo09

SOCCER4LIFE wrote: »

No, the blunt truth of the matter is that Ronaldo would comfortably make it into any side in the world, including Barcelona. To suggest otherwise is a nonsense.

Where did I ever solely judge Messi by the players around him? I said he has an advantage over Ronaldo in that regard, which is clearly true. You are taking what I said out of context.

Wait, you think Ronaldo would start for Barca? He doesn't have the mentality of a Barca player (head up, pass, move, receive etc) and would struggle to adapt. He like's been given the ball so he can do his own thing. I'm not saying he hasn't got the talent but in reality he is too lazy and immature.

Zebra3

Messi is a far superior player to Ronaldo.

Better team player and better attitude too.

dreamers75

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Say whaaaaat?

What point are you making regarding French players? Only one of those listed won a world cup and i think it's safe to say that Messi will go down in history as a better player than Zidane. World cup or not.

Why do they have to win a WC They just need to play well at one.

parker kent

SOCCER4LIFE wrote: »

No, the blunt truth of the matter is that Ronaldo would comfortably make it into any side in the world, including Barcelona. To suggest otherwise is a nonsense.

Can you not see how Ronaldo's style is at odds with how Barcelona play? Some players do not suit some teams. It doesn't mean they are not a great player, but they just don't fit in. Barcelona are all about the team ethic and retaining possession. Ronaldo would break that up. Ibrahimovic broke up that team ethic and they were not as good a team with him.

I'm not a Barca fanboy or any other slur that can be put on people who defend Messi or Barcelona. But Ronaldo would really have to change elements of his game to fit in. Ronaldo is best suited to a counter-attacking team that allow him to focus mainly on his own game(best suited, not only suited etc). Ronaldo wants to take shots as often as possible, which would break up Barca's passing game. He also would not be that interested in the extreme pressure Barca put on the other team when they have the ball. Messi is best suited to a possession based team with a very high workrate and team ethic.

Blatter

parker kent wrote: »

Can you not see how Ronaldo's style is at odds with how Barcelona play? Some players do not suit some teams. It doesn't mean they are not a great player, but they just don't fit in. Barcelona are all about the team ethic and retaining possession. Ronaldo would break that up. Ibrahimovic broke up that team ethic and they were not as good a team with him.

I'm not a Barca fanboy or any other slur that can be put on people who defend Messi or Barcelona. But Ronaldo would really have to change elements of his game to fit in. Ronaldo is best suited to a counter-attacking team that allow him to focus mainly on his own game(best suited, not only suited etc). Ronaldo wants to take shots as often as possible, which would break up Barca's passing game. He also would not be that interested in the extreme pressure Barca put on the other team when they have the ball. Messi is best suited to a possession based team with a very high workrate and team ethic.

Ibra didn't fit into the team for a combination of 3 reasons IMO, not just workrate

1) Poor workrate
2) Lack of pace
3) Not clinical enough, missed too many chances.

2) and 3) are not problems that Ronaldo has. I also think he works harder than Ibra, but still no where near how he should and know where you are coming from there.

I really don't understand how people can say that Ronaldo wouldn't displace Pedro or Villa in the Barca side. I know he's not 100% suited to how the team plays but that dosen't necessarily mean he wouldn't be a starter and improve the team.

ThunbergsAreGo

Ronaldo would walk into any team in the world

parker kent

SOCCER4LIFE wrote: »

Ibra didn't fit into the team for a combination of 3 reasons IMO, not just workrate

1) Poor workrate
2) Lack of pace
3) Not clinical enough, missed too many chances.

2) and 3) are not problems that Ronaldo has. I also think he works harder than Ibra, but still no where near how he should and know where you are coming from there.

I really don't understand how people can say that Ronaldo wouldn't displace Pedro or Villa in the Barca side. I know he's not 100% suited to how the team plays but that dosen't necessarily mean he wouldn't be a starter and improve the team.

I was not comparing Ibra with Ronaldo on a like-for-like basis. Just used him as an example of somebody that disrupted the team. I don't think Ronaldo has the footballing brain (i.e he shoots first asks questions later), ball retention, work ethic, personality (me first, not team first) or style to suit Barcelona. Some players can totally disrupt a team and ruin what made them special. His attitude might (repeat might) cause trouble in a team built on ball retention and a team-first attitude. Also both players require and/or are used to the team to be built around them (as most teams with great players do). Ronaldo and Messi in the same team would mean too many Chiefs and not enough Indians.

I think Ronaldo should be compared to somebody like Henry, Van Nistelrooy, Gerd Muller etc. A great goalscorer but not in the top tier of all-time great footballers. Messi scores as much as Ronaldo and offers far more than that.

Boskowski

karma_ wrote: »

I'm old enough to have watched Maradonna play but Messi is on another level completely.

Wha? How do you make that out? I know its all opinion but 'on another level completely'?

I would actually tend to make that very statement the other way around.

parker kent

Boskowski wrote: »

Wha? How do you make that out? I know its all opinion but 'on another level completely'?

I would actually tend to make that very statement the other way around.

Either statement is impossible really. You simply can't compare people who played in different eras and with different rules (i.e Maradona had different offside laws, backpass laws, tackle from behind etc). Each era would have pros and cons for each player.