Messi

parker kent

losthorizon wrote: »

I take in your general points. I can actually remember the 1982 world cup (and for me the Italy v Brazil match was the best game of football I have ever seen). Maradonna Gave a great display against Hungary. I cant remember what he did against El Salvador but he was hacked down by the Belgians and the Italians. It wasnt like today were you get too much protection. Gentile in particular went way beyond what was acceptable.

I understand that and that partly is why I say any lines about Messi being far better are ludicrous (other reasons include Maradona's excellent time at Napoli etc). It is why I said Maradona played with different tackling, offside, backpass etc laws.

But it should still be said, that Messi having an ordinary 2010 WC does not necessarily mean anything. Maradona and Pele both had underwhelming World Cup's for various reasons in 1966 anf 1982 (getting hacked to bits, poor players around them, ageing players etc). So Messi is not alone.

TheDoc

THFC wrote: »

That argument is still very much alive...

I just dont understand this point that Ronaldo "Fails to perform in the big games"

In the big games, there is big teams, big players and big coaches.

The obvious scenario is that Ronaldo is going to get bullied, overmarked and double teamed at every stage. Meticulous work will go into ensuring he is as ineffective as possible.

The same goes for Messi, what bigger games is he performing better in then Ronaldo.

At the world cup it looked to me like both were overcrowded, bit tired and were simply just made ineffective by stiffling defensive tactics and marking.


I remember reading this arguement after the United vs Barca final.
"O Ronaldo failing again on the big stage as usual, Messi showing his better"

Lets not forget that the year before United won the CL with Ronaldo scoring against at the time, one of the more formiddable defences in Europe.
And I also remember him pretty much dragging United through the 1/4 and 1/2 finals.

Its a bollox arguement in my opinion, as operating at that level with that high a reputation, it is very hard to simply light the world on fire.

I'm genuinely trying to remember Messi " Burning the stage alight" in a big game.

I remember his cL goal against United.....when United were bombing forward on the break.....and him getting a free header...being marked by John O Shea... is that performing on the big stage?

Really, its a bollox arguement

Bodhisopha

TheDoc wrote: »

I just dont understand this point that Ronaldo "Fails to perform in the big games"

In the big games, there is big teams, big players and big coaches.

The obvious scenario is that Ronaldo is going to get bullied, overmarked and double teamed at every stage. Meticulous work will go into ensuring he is as ineffective as possible.

The same goes for Messi, what bigger games is he performing better in then Ronaldo.

At the world cup it looked to me like both were overcrowded, bit tired and were simply just made ineffective by stiffling defensive tactics and marking.


I remember reading this arguement after the United vs Barca final.
"O Ronaldo failing again on the big stage as usual, Messi showing his better"

Lets not forget that the year before United won the CL with Ronaldo scoring against at the time, one of the more formiddable defences in Europe.
And I also remember him pretty much dragging United through the 1/4 and 1/2 finals.

Its a bollox arguement in my opinion, as operating at that level with that high a reputation, it is very hard to simply light the world on fire.

I'm genuinely trying to remember Messi " Burning the stage alight" in a big game.

I remember his cL goal against United.....when United were bombing forward on the break.....and him getting a free header...being marked by John O Shea... is that performing on the big stage?

Really, its a bollox arguement

You don't think Messi "burned the stage alight" in the last Classico?

"The same goes for Messi, what bigger games is he performing better in then Ronaldo."

The answer to that is the vast majority of games in which they have played against eachother. Your argument probably would've worked better if you just focused on Ronaldo.

GLaDOS

TheDoc wrote: »

I'm genuinely trying to remember Messi " Burning the stage alight" in a big game.

He demolished Arsenal in last years Champions League

eZe^

TheDoc wrote: »

I'm genuinely trying to remember Messi " Burning the stage alight" in a big game.

Hattrick against Madrid when he was 19, 4 goals against Arsenal last year, tore Utd a new one in the CL final, was amazing at Stamford Bridge in a CL SF at the age of 17, demolished Madrid in a 6-2 win at the Bernabeu. That's just off the top of my head.

redout

TheDoc wrote: »

I'm genuinely trying to remember Messi " Burning the stage alight" in a big game.

I remember his cL goal against United.....when United were bombing forward on the break.....and him getting a free header...being marked by John O Shea... is that performing on the big stage?

Really, its a bollox arguement

LMAO - He orchestrated the manita ffs - a game which has been hailed as the greatest footballing display of all-time by some.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

TheDoc wrote: »

I just dont understand this point that Ronaldo "Fails to perform in the big games"

In the big games, there is big teams, big players and big coaches.

The obvious scenario is that Ronaldo is going to get bullied, overmarked and double teamed at every stage. Meticulous work will go into ensuring he is as ineffective as possible.

The same goes for Messi, what bigger games is he performing better in then Ronaldo.

At the world cup it looked to me like both were overcrowded, bit tired and were simply just made ineffective by stiffling defensive tactics and marking.


I remember reading this arguement after the United vs Barca final.
"O Ronaldo failing again on the big stage as usual, Messi showing his better"

Lets not forget that the year before United won the CL with Ronaldo scoring against at the time, one of the more formiddable defences in Europe.
And I also remember him pretty much dragging United through the 1/4 and 1/2 finals.

Its a bollox arguement in my opinion, as operating at that level with that high a reputation, it is very hard to simply light the world on fire.

I'm genuinely trying to remember Messi " Burning the stage alight" in a big game.

I remember his cL goal against United.....when United were bombing forward on the break.....and him getting a free header...being marked by John O Shea... is that performing on the big stage?

Really, its a bollox arguement

I think the saddest thing about that post is that people have thanked it.. Dear God... At least I've been spared having to reply to that^

th3 s1aught3r

Lionel Messi became the first player to score 50 goals in a Spanish season as Barcelona beat Osasuna 2-0.

CorkMan

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I remember all the talk about Ronaldo not being able to play in "big" games being levelled at him.

THFC wrote: »

That argument is still very much alive...

lol

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

Lionel Messi became the first player to score 50 goals in a Spanish season as Barcelona beat Osasuna 2-0.

Ronaldo has 43 at the moment, so he is very much not a lot behind. Di Stefano and Hugo Sanchez are the only 2 other players in Real's history to get that amount.

tommyhaas

I think next season could be the defining season in terms of how Messi really measures in comparison to the games true greats

If Stoke qualify for the UEFA Cup, and Barca drop down to it from the CL group stages, the immortal question could finally be answered, would Lionel Messi struggle in a cold night at the Britiannia?

dagdha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnPKOisd_eY

Pighead

Amazing stuff from Messi. And judging by the above video only three of his 50 were penalties. Damn impressive. Ronaldo's tally while obviously also extremely impressive includes eight penalties.

Bodhisopha

Lol, i love that for goal number 11 the commentator has started his ridiculously long "gooooooooalllll" before Messi even gets inside the box to finish it off.

Dolph Starbeam

At 1:26, his 25th goal of the season against Osasuna why does he hit the penalty with his right foot?

The Floyd p

Mark! wrote: »

At 1:26, his 25th goal of the season against Osasuna why does he hit the penalty with his right foot?

The clip is mirrored. Probably to avoid copyright issues.

Bodhisopha

Mark! wrote: »

At 1:26, his 25th goal of the season against Osasuna why does he hit the penalty with his right foot?

Look at the advertising. It fooled me initially too.

eZe^

Mark! wrote: »

At 1:26, his 25th goal of the season against Osasuna why does he hit the penalty with his right foot?

Because he's a ballah.

hatz7

I don't think he is the best player of all time.
He could, by the end of his career earn that title, but its too early to say he is just yet.
I think Zidane and Maradonna were better players, I never saw Pele play.

DOC09UNAM

Pighead wrote: »

Amazing stuff from Messi. And judging by the above video only three of his 50 were penalties. Damn impressive. Ronaldo's tally while obviously also extremely impressive includes eight penalties.

There was four penalties in that video.

The one with his "right" foot.

Arsenal, Almeria and then Real as well.

But take nothing away from them, penalties still have to be scored, and as we saw today with Davies and Samaras, they're not guaranteed goals by any means.

Bodhisopha

hatz7 wrote: »

I don't think he is the best player of all time.
He could, by the end of his career earn that title, but its too early to say he is just yet.
I think Zidane and Maradonna were better players, I never saw Pele play.

Messi shiits all over Zidane, the most overrated player on here.

Agreed that Messi is not the best, yet.

flahavaj

dagdha wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnPKOisd_eY

Was there in person to see the first 3 of those 50 scored. What a player. Keep this up and he may very well go down as the greatest ever.

eZe^

flahavaj wrote: »

Was there in person to see the first 3 of those 50 scored. What a player. Keep this up and he may very well go down as the greatest ever.

Great game to see live I reckon, to come back from 3-1 down on aggregate so comfortably was enjoyable.

flahavaj

eZe^ wrote: »

Great game to see live I reckon, to come back from 3-1 down on aggregate so comfortably was enjoyable.

It was ridiculously one-sided (not in a bad way). Sw Vulla's debut as well. For all Messi's brilliance seeing Xavi in person was the real treat. Ran the show with consummate ease.

Warper

Wow, in awe still of his genius tonight. In an ugly game, his beauty shone through. Hats off to the genius of Messi

Boskowski

Whatever about him being the best or not or what. Amongst all the sh1t that went on the other night one thing really hit home with me. Hes a great sportsman. He never exaggerates, he never playacts, he just gets on with it. I really like that about him.

redout

GLaDOS

Boskowski wrote: »

Whatever about him being the best or not or what. Amongst all the sh1t that went on the other night one thing really hit home with me. Hes a great sportsman. He never exaggerates, he never playacts, he just gets on with it. I really like that about him.

I agree, but I wonder what he thinks of his team-mates who definitely do indulge in the un-sportsmanship side of the game.

I know he's still young in football terms, but I imagine he would have a big influence on the Barcelona team.

Bodhisopha

ScienceNerd wrote: »

I agree, but I wonder what he thinks of his team-mates who definitely do indulge in the un-sportsmanship side of the game.

I know he's still young in football terms, but I imagine he would have a big influence on the Barcelona team.

This is what he thinks of Alves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1plZyd18YA

BFF!

patmac

The greatest of all time is hard to compare because every Messi goal is shown and analysed from about 60 different angles, whereas there is little footage available of the fantastic goals that Pele, Best, Cruyff and Maradona have all scored.

Woody_FX

Messi really is awesome. 50 top goals at the highest class football in 1 season.

Can dispute his class here. I rated Zindane too, he pretty much took his teams to every major honor in the games both and club and at international level.

Both amazing players.

Pepe LeFrits

I find who is the best type arguments rather pointless. Football is continually evolving and changing and no two players encounter the same challenges or circumstances.

I prefer to simply say that he is a magical player and then sit back and enjoy watching him do his thing.

The Floyd p

99 Goals and 34 Assists in 103 Games

WTF?!
Thats beyond amazing!

bonerm

If he could win a world cup as captain (2014 would be the perfect time and place to do it) then he would probably be elevated into the iconic legends category.







Everyone knows these photos (even if you weren't around to see them live) and they (sort of) make a player immortal.

KerranJast

George Best
Alfredo Di Stefano
Johan Cruyff
Ferenc Puskas
Eusebio
Marco Van Basten

All great players who never won a World Cup. One player no matter how talented can deliver a World Cup. He needs to have a decent team behind him as Maradona did in 1986.

kryogen

Messi has not done it at International level, or in any league outside Spain, which is tailor made for his style of play


this should be good

JPA

Pele wasn't captain IIRC

bonerm

KerranJast wrote: »

George Best
Alfredo Di Stefano
Johan Cruyff
Ferenc Puskas
Eusebio
Marco Van Basten

All great players who never won a World Cup. One player no matter how talented can deliver a World Cup. He needs to have a decent team behind him as Maradona did in 1986.

As good as they were they're still not in the same 'iconic' bracket as the likes of Maradona or Pele. For instance I'd guess many modern fans don't even know what Di Stefano or Puskas look like. Also IMHO it's no coincidence Best and Eusebio are kept in the UK/Ireland public consciousness purely because they both made a big impression in on British soil. By this if Eusebio hadn't exploded in WC1966 he'd be another forgotten player in this part of the world (despite being a legend with four european cup finals appearances to his name). Similarily if Best had been born in (eg) Switzerland and played in his career Italy not many in the UK/Ireland would still be that aware of him or remembered him particularily

I'm not saying winning a WC makes you a better player. I'm convinced tho it'll help increase the chances of you still being remembered and talked about worldwide 50 years from now.

K-9

bonerm wrote: »

As good as they were they're still not in the same 'iconic' bracket as the likes of Maradona or Pele. For instance I'd guess many modern fans don't even know what Di Stefano or Puskas look like. Also IMHO it's no coincidence Best and Eusebio are kept in the UK/Ireland public consciousness purely because they both made a big impression in on British soil. By this if Eusebio hadn't exploded in WC1966 he'd be another forgotten player in this part of the world (despite being a legend with four european cup finals appearances to his name). Similarily if Best had been born in (eg) Switzerland and played in his career Italy not many in the UK/Ireland would still be that aware of him or remembered him particularily

I'm not saying winning a WC makes you a better player. I'm convinced tho it'll help increase the chances of you still being remembered and talked about worldwide 50 years from now.

Di Stefano and Puskas go down in memory because they were part of legendary teams, Puskas is a bit like Cruyff, part of teams that probably should have won World Cups, maybe Messi could go down as that type of player.

As for Best, playing for Northern Ireland worked against him, so he isn't held up there with Maradonna and Pele because he never got to the World Cup stage.

As for World Cups wins, people still talk about Platini, 25 years later, Cruyff 40 years later though I see your point. Brady was a fantastic player but only gets remembered for his Arsenal and Juventus exploits, not Ireland.

Bodhisopha

K-9 wrote: »

Di Stefano and Puskas go down in memory because they were part of legendary teams, Puskas is a bit like Cruyff, part of teams that probably should have won World Cups, maybe Messi could go down as that type of player.

As for Best, playing for Northern Ireland worked against him, so he isn't held up there with Maradonna and Pele because he never got to the World Cup stage.

As for World Cups wins, people still talk about Platini, 25 years later, Cruyff 40 years later though I see your point. Brady was a fantastic player but only gets remembered for his Arsenal and Juventus exploits, not Ireland.

Most of those old enough to remember consider Platini to be the best French player of all time and some even consider his performance in 84 to be slightly above that of Maradona in 86.

K-9

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Most of those old enough to remember consider Platini to be the best French player of all time and some even consider his performance in 84 to be slightly above that of Maradona in 86.

I'd say he was very damn close, the best French player of all time? Yes,
without a doubt to me.

But still Maradona was better, just that bit more magiical!

Tubsandtiles

He comes across as a gentleman, he will be remembered as one of the worlds greatest in my books

Helix

bonerm wrote: »

I'm not saying winning a WC makes you a better player. I'm convinced tho it'll help increase the chances of you still being remembered and talked about worldwide 50 years from now.

football has changed immeasurably in the last few decades. international football takes second place to national club and continental club competitons. this generation of players dont have to do a jot at international level to be considered greats, because they play an infinitely better standard of opponents week in week out for their clubs

CharlesHaughey

IMO Messi has to produce for Argentina too, he has Iniesta and Xavi in midfield assisting him. He has the highest Spanish team scorer next to him, with these factors he is bound to be great. I am skeptical as he hasn't didn't turn it on much at WC2010, looking at it objectively he didn't even score. He might of hit the post, but that is what he would have done. 1 goal wouldn't make him great.

pickarooney

K-9 wrote: »

Di Stefano and Puskas go down in memory because they were part of legendary teams, Puskas is a bit like Cruyff, part of teams that probably should have won World Cups, maybe Messi could go down as that type of player.

Maybe Messi can copy Puskas and di Stefano and declare for Spain for the next World Cup

K-9

pickarooney wrote: »

Maybe Messi can copy Puskas and di Stefano and declare for Spain for the next World Cup

Never knew Puskas finished up with Spain.

bonerm

K-9 wrote: »

Never knew Puskas finished up with Spain.

Di Stefano's even more impressive. Played full internationals for Argentina, Colombia AND Spain.

darkman2

Check out this commentator

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL7OZoq1Fj4

pickarooney

bonerm wrote: »

Di Stefano's even more impressive. Played full internationals for Argentina, Colombia AND Spain.

Not forgetting he also lined out for the Catalonian 'national' side - not bad for a Madrid legend.

eZe^

pickarooney wrote: »

Not forgetting he also lined out for the Catalonian 'national' side - not bad for a Madrid legend.

He also lined up for Barca with Puskas and Kubala in a friendly match. That would have been some team.

Pauleta

darkman2 wrote: »

Check out this commentator

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL7OZoq1Fj4

Thats the commentary from the goal he scored against Getafe.