2in2u.ie - government sponsered gender discrimination?

ApeXaviour

<this was a tangent on the gender discrimination is illegal motor insurance thread. It was suggested I start a new thread on the topic.>

In a pub the other day I saw an ad for www.2in2u.ie (don't even bother ticking the boxes, it very annoyingly doesn't make any difference to the outcome, just click the submit button at the bottom!). I was appalled at how it took such a circumscribed stance on what is not at all a gender specific issue. It's more shocking that rubbish like this is funded by our National Development Plan...

It irks me (no more or less than if it were reversed) when I see domestic abuse portrayed solely as a male=instigator, female=victim. While perhaps this is not quite so sinister, it's still harmful to attitudes. It really really did not need to be gender specific.

The following was was James Jones' peek into the other government agency stamped at the bottom: Cosc.

James Jones wrote: »

One of those Govt agencies is Cosc, "The National Office for the Prevention of Domestic, Sexual and Gender-based Violence".

It seems that gender based violence only affects one gender. I must get on to the Gender Equality Division who say that

"Gender equality is achieved when women and men enjoy the same rights and opportunities across all sectors of society, including economic participation and decision-making, and when the different behaviours, aspirations and needs of women and men are equally valued and favoured".

On second thoughts, maybe not. Their website states that

Government policy in this area includes:
the provision of a legal framework that provides for equal treatment of women and men;
the National Women's Strategy 2007-2016, which is the Government's policy document in relation to the advancement of women in Irish society. The Strategy contains 20 key objectives and over 200 planned actions which are grouped under the three key themes of:
Equalising socio-economic opportunity for women;
Ensuring the wellbeing of women;
and Engaging women as equal and active citizens.
a programme of positive action measures, including the Equality for Women Measure 2010-2013, to enhance women's skills and to foster their engagement in Irish society and decision-making where they are under-represented

HellFireClub

Just visited that site, it's disgusting... It's an absolute disgrace that taxpayers money can be spent on such an obviously feminist developed pile of utter rubbish such as this.

I wouldn't say that it is discriminatory, it's just downright offensive, I've been with girls over the years who have gone through my phone and/or e-mails, it was nothing to do with their gender, it was because they were paranoid sad immature individuals.

Is there any place that you could e-mail to object to this woeful use of taxpayers money???

HellFireClub

The campaign is plastered all over this site: http://www.womensaid.ie/

One of the slogans, is, "Remember, if it feel's wrong, it probably is"...

Sounds like a healthy dose of paranoia is now what is advised on the dating scene...

cantdecide

Is there some context that we're missing here? Is it part of some larger campaign or something like that? It just seems baffling one sided on it's own.

Fittle

I've heard that ad on the radio and to be honest, was completely confused by it! I really don't get it - and like the previous poster said, I was thinking it might be part of a wider 'women's rights' campaign perhaps, and we haven't heard about the rest of it? I don't understand why they would be targeting young women this way, when it's obvious that this particular issue (is it even a domestic violence issue - appears to me to be about control in relationships) is nothing to do with gender.

I'm female and find the ad completely offensive also.

Bottle_of_Smoke

I don't think its that big a deal - all the B options are pretty nuts and all the C options are outright bonkers.

IME women tend to be far far worse for staying with controlling men than men staying with controlling girls, and I have more male friends than female.

Just because it is targeted at women with crazy boyfriends doesn't mean they're implying there are no crazy girls out there or that B & C options are typical of men. Lets not get hypersensitive lads.

Bottle_of_Smoke

HellFireClub wrote: »

The campaign is plastered all over this site: http://www.womensaid.ie/

One of the slogans, is, "Remember, if it feel's wrong, it probably is"...

Sounds like a healthy dose of paranoia is now what is advised on the dating scene...

No not at all. I think its pretty good advice. Often people don't escape relationships because they feel they are in the wrong. Maybe that line will help people to follow their instinct

cantdecide

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

...Often people don't escape relationships because they feel they are in the wrong...

"People", yes. But why then aim this exclusively at women? That's the point.

clouds

Well said Bottle of Smoke.

And Hellfireclub what's wrong with using a small portion of taxpayer money on feminist issues? They use taxpayers money on every other interest group you care to name. Why not womens issues? Also what's the issue with it being 'plastered' all over the WomensAid site? Which is a site for women trying to escape domestic abuse. Would you expect to find anti-fatty foods ads on a heart health website? Your language is interesting and betrays your feelings about womens rights very clearly.

And before you say they are portraying men as controlling abusers, eh no they're not. Most people (even feminists!) know the difference between an abuser and a normal man with normal faults. Ironically it's the people (usually women it has to be said) who are being abused and controlled who have the hardest time differentiating.

clouds

cantdecide wrote: »

"People", yes. But why then aim this exclusively at women? That's the point.

Because more women that men put up with domestic abuse.

And so what? Why not aim it at a certain subset of the population who are affected by a particular issue?

Perhaps anyone who is concerned for the men should set up their own charity aimed at helping them. i'd support it, like I support the women's one. I'd imagine most people would.

VERYinterested

I'm male and I had heard the radio commercial and I wanted to visit their site to see what it was all about. You would never know from the radio ad what the correct address is to type in to the URL bar. I tried Googling it and it doesn't come up, so the radio campaign is also a waste of money. Sounds like the radio ad was written and performed by work experience kids.

Edit: I also used to snigger at the 'two in to you' concept, it sounds like an ad for spit roasting!

clouds

Fittle wrote: »

I've heard that ad on the radio and to be honest, was completely confused by it! I really don't get it - and like the previous poster said, I was thinking it might be part of a wider 'women's rights' campaign perhaps, and we haven't heard about the rest of it? I don't understand why they would be targeting young women this way, when it's obvious that this particular issue (is it even a domestic violence issue - appears to me to be about control in relationships) is nothing to do with gender.

I'm female and find the ad completely offensive also.

I don't get this attitude Fittle. Why be offended because bad things happen to women and other people want to help them?

I don't have the stats to hand that say it's mostly a female issue. So I won't try to argue using them. But even if it's half and half WHY NOT target half that group? Perhaps mens groups can also stand up and be counted and put in 40 years of work like womens aid has, and maybe one day they too can have an ad partly funded by both male and female taxpayers aimed at helping them.

Anyway surely men undergoing abuse can identify with women in the same situation? If it's not a gendered issue surely nobody notices what gender the perpetrators/victims are and anyone affected will identify with the situation not the gender.

tricky D

clouds wrote: »

Well said Bottle of Smoke.

And Hellfireclub what's wrong with using a small portion of taxpayer money on feminist issues? They use taxpayers money on every other interest group you care to name. Why not womens issues? Also what's the issue with it being 'plastered' all over the WomensAid site? Which is a site for women trying to escape domestic abuse. Would you expect to find anti-fatty foods ads on a heart health website? Your language is interesting and betrays your feelings about womens rights very clearly.

The problem is that it's feeding a false perception that domestic abuse is almost all men towards women. This neglects the significant abuse which occurs the other way and importantly the effects on children. It's not a black and white issue at all, yet is too often portrayed as such.

cantdecide

clouds wrote: »

...what's wrong with using a small portion of taxpayer money on feminist issues? ...

clouds wrote: »

...Because more women that men put up with domestic abuse...

Should men who are suffering any form of abuse from their partner's go to hell then? This is a social issue not a gender issue. The government shouldn't support one-sided campaigns.

Bottle_of_Smoke

cantdecide wrote: »

"People", yes. But why then aim this exclusively at women? That's the point.

I guess that's because they're a women's group. Perhaps there shouldn't be women's groups in that format but that's a different issue.

As I said in the previous most IME women are much worse for staying in toxic relationships.

clouds

tricky D wrote: »

The problem is that it's feeding a false perception that domestic abuse is almost all men towards women. This neglects the significant abuse which occurs the other way and importantly the effects on children. It's not a black and white issue at all, yet is too often portrayed as such.

i don't think it's black and white at all. Nobody who knows anything about it does.
I'd love to see the stats which show domestic abuse is not gendered. Anyone have them or does everyone just want to keep asserting that women are just as likely to be domestic abusers themselves?

I am not denying it happens. But I don't think it's an equal thing.

Bottle_of_Smoke

cantdecide wrote: »

Troll much? Should men who are suffering any form of abuse from their partner's go to hell then? This is a social issue not a gender issue. The government shouldn't support one-sided campaigns.

I think(hope) Amen receive government funding, they reach out to men with campaigns against abuse toward men. Maybe these things need to be gender specific to get through to the vulnerable.

clouds

cantdecide wrote: »

Troll much? Should men who are suffering any form of abuse from their partner's go to hell then? This is a social issue not a gender issue. The government shouldn't support one-sided campaigns.

DON'T call me a troll, if you don't mind, Candecide.

That is not what I said. Read what I wrote I can't be bothered to go through it again. It was very clear the first time.

Count Duckula

You know, just because that one happens to be aimed at women doesn't mean it's saying that violence and abuse doesn't happen against men in a relationship, too.

cantdecide

clouds wrote: »

DON'T call me a troll, if you don't mind, Candecide.

That is not what I said. Read what I wrote I can't be bothered to go through it again. It was very clear the first time.

Things can be perfectly clear and still wrong.

tricky D

clouds wrote: »

i don't think it's black and white at all. Nobody who knows anything about it does.
I'd love to see the stats which show domestic abuse is not gendered. Anyone have them or does everyone just want to keep asserting that women are just as likely to be domestic abusers themselves?

I am not denying it happens. But I don't think it's an equal thing.

Nobody said it is equal. That's misrepresenting my point. Here's one study which is not done by women's groups (National Crime Council (NCC), in association with the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI)) which paints a different picture to what is too often perceived.

http://www.amen.ie/Papers/15270.htm

amacachi

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

I don't think its that big a deal - all the B options are pretty nuts and all the C options are outright bonkers.

IME women tend to be far far worse for staying with controlling men than men staying with controlling girls, and I have more male friends than female.

Just because it is targeted at women with crazy boyfriends doesn't mean they're implying there are no crazy girls out there or that B & C options are typical of men. Lets not get hypersensitive lads.

"Sometimes. He likes to know what I'm up to." I better stop texting several of my friends because it's obviously an abusive friendship we have.

Bottle_of_Smoke

amacachi wrote: »

"Sometimes. He likes to know what I'm up to." I better stop texting several of my friends because it's obviously an abusive friendship we have.

Initially that caught my eye and was gonna criticise it but the question for it is:

Does he send you constant texts checking up on you when you're not with him?

So in the context of the question its ok to have there

Otis Driftwood

Before this gets too heated,if anyone has an issue with a post then report it.Accusations of trolling or any other shenanigans will be handled by the mods.Cheers.

Count Duckula

amacachi wrote: »

"Sometimes. He likes to know what I'm up to." I better stop texting several of my friends because it's obviously an abusive friendship we have.

That was a strange one, because the 'good' option was something along the lines of "I text him no more than I text my other friends".

Now, I don't think there's anything particularly harmful about a couple texting each other more than they do their other friends!

Galvasean

Well it's a womensaid campaign so I can see why it's gender specific. Sure if you really wanted you could just swap 'boy' with 'girl' and it's the exact same thing.
I think the reason why it doesn't matter which boxes you tick is because it is more to make people (girls) think about what they are reading/admitting properly, rather tahn just telling them. It's probably more useful if they come to the conclusion themselves.

FWIW, I found some stats from 2005 on abuse in relation to gender:
http://www.amen.ie/Papers/15270.htm
Interestingly, according to the stats women are more than twice as likely to suffer from domestic abuse. Although 1 in 3 women reported abuse to the gardai (a ssadly low number IMO), only 1 in 20 men did so.

chicken fingers

Absolutely disgusting site.
Obviously made by a woman or women who have SERIOUS issues with previous relationships and are generalizing those experiences somehow into a government funded campaign. Its apparent by the very narrow bands of possible outcomes, the skew and the bizzarely worded situations.

Whoever decided to spend taxpayers monet on that should be sacked but they probably got a promotion for it.

donfers

it's simplistic, one-sided, insidious and disgraceful so all par for the course and rather predictable when it comes to the sexist prism that these issues are often viewed through.

Kevin Duffy

clouds wrote: »

Well said Bottle of Smoke.

And Hellfireclub what's wrong with using a small portion of taxpayer money on feminist issues? They use taxpayers money on every other interest group you care to name. Why not womens issues? .

Because it's not a feminist issue or a women's issue, it affects everybody. A campaign run with the same money could reach anybody in an abusive (in the broadest sense) relationship, men and women and of all sexualities. This doesn't just ignore men being abused, it ignores LGBT relationships.

It also blames men, not abusers. All the questions are "he" does such-and-such, not "your partner". The same campaign could have been broader and more inclusive with a little intelligence in the wording of the questions.

Making the whole campaign and the wider argument about blaming men also provides only a negative outcome, suggesting a relationship is not healthy and starting to be very wary of your partner in response to a very poorly worded, simplistic quiz. Surely a better solution would be to provide awareness for everyone affected, on either side of the relationship, that they may be witnessing or exhibiting warning signs. From previous relationships, I can answer B to every question. I can also recall conversations after each incidence which made her aware why something wasn't on and cleared that behaviour right up - much more healthy than imagining a cause and effect that wasn't there, getting paranoid and leaving. There may be many people who need education, development, more maturity or whatever - a bit of help would be better than blame.

Aswerty

Kevin Duffy wrote: »

Because it's not a feminist issue or a women's issue, it affects everybody. A campaign run with the same money could reach anybody in an abusive (in the broadest sense) relationship, men and women and of all sexualities. This doesn't just ignore men being abused, it ignores LGBT relationships.

It also blames men, not abusers. All the questions are "he" does such-and-such, not "your partner". The same campaign could have been broader and more inclusive with a little intelligence in the wording of the questions.

Making the whole campaign and the wider argument about blaming men also provides only a negative outcome, suggesting a relationship is not healthy and starting to be very wary of your partner in response to a very poorly worded, simplistic quiz. Surely a better solution would be to provide awareness for everyone affected, on either side of the relationship, that they may be witnessing or exhibiting warning signs. From previous relationships, I can answer B to every question. I can also recall conversations after each incidence which made her aware why something wasn't on and cleared that behaviour right up - much more healthy than imagining a cause and effect that wasn't there, getting paranoid and leaving. There may be many people who need education, development, more maturity or whatever - a bit of help would be better than blame.

You've really hit the nail on the head there. Especially with regards to LGBT.

I heard an ad for this on the radio this morning and really thought 'what the hell'. It's another step in the demonisation of men from a womans lobby group who doesn't represent the majority view of women let alone people. I mean how hard is it to say partner as opposed to BF or GF, one little change and the entire tack of the campaign is moved to a far more egalitarian angle (excluding the pink website ).

This is just off the back of me having a discussion with someone last night about the closure of a domestic violence refuge being closed down in Sligo. While although terrible for women I couldn't help but think that the male population who undergo domestic violence never had a service like that to avail of to begin with.

I think gender discrimination towards women ranks higher out of the sexes but at least there is a fairly general understanding that it is slowly being eroded since a fair bit of it is a legacy from the not so distant past. On the flip side of the coin male discrimination seems to be on the rise if anything from the actions of current "womens" orginisations.

clouds

But just because one group of victims are being highlighted it doesn't mean that other groups are being denied.

Like if I collect money for dffodil day it doesnt mean that I don't care about cardic patients. It' just focus