Japanese earthquake / tsunami discussion

Run_to_da_hills

Official: Japan's nuclear situation nearing severity of Chernobyl

The French nuclear agencies may be correct in categorizing it as a level 6.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/15/japan.nuclear/?hpt=T2

Stocks of potassium iodide running dry in the US due to panic buying.

http://www.infowars.com/panic-buying-stocks-of-potassium-iodide-exhausted-in-u/

gargleblaster

Jake1 wrote: »

Big thanks to some of you, keeping us informed. Im finding your explanations easier than the telly.

So thanks for the updates and explanations.

reading a variety of official news sources is probably your best bet. telly is the worst. word of mouth via forum posters gives too much room for misunderstanding and subsequent relaying of bad information.

mandrake04

andrew wrote: »

From this chart, if a worker got sick, they got a lot more than .106 Sv

That's true but for the uneducated on this thread the

Total exposure = instant radiation x time

106 mSv/hr x 10 hours = 1.06 Sv

400 mSv/hr x 2.5 hours = 1 Sv

400 mSv/hr x 15mins = 100 mSv

T0mmyM

Energy correspondent Scott DiSavino answering questions over at the Reuters Liveblog.


http://live.reuters.com/Event/Japan_earthquake2

NeedaNewName

I'm pretty much assuming "meltdowns" have occurred given the true meaning of the term.

I think someone, very early on in the thread, said that Japan, and the rest, are very economical with the truth when it comes to these matters.

Thrill

Minami-sanriku town, 1000 confirmed dead, still 7000 missing. Whole city is gone. They have nothing & need much help to start.(NHK)

uprising2

Chernobyl clean-up expert slams Japan, IAEA
Greed in the nuclear industry and corporate influence over the U.N. watchdog for atomic energy may doom Japan to a spreading nuclear disaster, one of the men brought in to clean up Chernobyl said on Tuesday.
Slamming the Japanese response at Fukushima, Russian nuclear accident specialist Iouli Andreev accused corporations and the United Nations' International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) of wilfully ignoring lessons from the world's worst nuclear accident 25 years ago to protect the industry's expansion.
"After Chernobyl all the force of the nuclear industry was directed to hide this event, for not creating damage to their reputation. The Chernobyl experience was not studied properly because who has money for studying? Only industry.
"But industry doesn't like it," he said in an interview in Vienna where the former director of the Soviet Spetsatom clean-up agency now teaches and advises on nuclear safety. Austria's environment ministry has used him as an adviser.
Andreev said a fire which released radiation on Tuesday involving spent fuel rods stored close to reactors at Fukushima looked like an example of putting profit before safety:
"The Japanese were very greedy and they used every square inch of the space. But when you have a dense placing of spent fuel in the basin you have a high possibility of fire if the water is removed from the basin," Andreev said.
The IAEA should share blame for standards, he said, arguing it was too close to corporations building and running plants. And he dismissed an emergency incident team set up by the Vienna-based agency as "only a think-tank not a working force":
"This is only a fake organization because every organization which depends on the nuclear industry - and the IAEA depends on the nuclear industry - cannot perform properly.
"It always will try to hide the reality.
"The IAEA ... is not interested in the concentration of attention on a possible accident in the nuclear industry. They are totally not interested in all the emergency organizations."
The IAEA had no immediate comment on Andreev's criticism.
Andreev said he understood all too well what the Japanese authorities in Fukushima were going through, and that creative solutions would be needed to contain the leaks.
"It is a situation of quiet panic. I know this situation," he said. "Discipline is the main thing in the industry but the emergency service requires creativity, requires some kind of even fantasy and improvisation."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/15/us-chernobyl-clean-up-expert-slams-japan-idUSTRE72E7AL20110315


Meltdown battle revives reactor safety concern
The intense battle under way to control the nuclear plant at Fukushima Daiichi is unprecedented in scope – never before have multiple reactors been at risk of full meltdown – but it has also revived one of the longest-running debates in the industry: how safe is it to build an atomic reactor in an area that is at risk of an earthquake?

There are four 1980s-vintage reactors at two sites in California, one to the north and one to the south of Los Angeles. Anthony Pietrangelo, the chief nuclear officer at the Nuclear Energy Institute, which represents the US industry, said seismic risk had been taken fully into account by US regulators.
“These plants are designed to withstand the most severe quake” that they could be expected to see in their lifetimes, he said.


In Japan, because of the frequency and magnitude of earthquakes, particular attention is paid to seismic issues in the siting, design and construction of nuclear power plants.

Nevertheless, as events have shown in Japan, you cannot plan for the unplannable.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/711c9734-4f34-11e0-9038-00144feab49a.html#axzz1GhURhbrc

JAPAN'S crippled Fukushima plant now rates six on a seven-point international scale of gravity for nuclear accidents. March 16, 2011 12:00AM

"The incident has taken on a completely different dimension compared to Monday. It is clear that we are at level six," Andre-Claude Lacoste, head of France's Nuclear Safety Authority, said.
"We have no options other than to pour water from a helicopter, or to spray water from the ground," a spokesman for operator Tokyo Electric Power Co (TEPCO) said on television this morning.

"We have to take action tomorrow or the day after."

"The order of gravity has changed."
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/special-reports/japan-earthquake-new-explosion-rocks-fukushima-nuclear-power-plant/story-fn7zkbgs-1226021415043

Overheal

Most all of that is old news Uprising2

Trust me every media outlet is going to print the same information. a lot. they all want their own viewership and their own readers. It takes hours for some of them to catch up and publish the latest information, confusing people into thinking it's the latest information when quite often it's become stale.

amacachi

uprising2 wrote: »

Chernobyl clean-up expert slams Japan, IAEA
Greed in the nuclear industry and corporate influence over the U.N. watchdog for atomic energy may doom Japan to a spreading nuclear disaster, one of the men brought in to clean up Chernobyl said on Tuesday.
Slamming the Japanese response at Fukushima, Russian nuclear accident specialist Iouli Andreev accused corporations and the United Nations' International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) of wilfully ignoring lessons from the world's worst nuclear accident 25 years ago to protect the industry's expansion.
"After Chernobyl all the force of the nuclear industry was directed to hide this event, for not creating damage to their reputation. The Chernobyl experience was not studied properly because who has money for studying? Only industry.
"But industry doesn't like it," he said in an interview in Vienna where the former director of the Soviet Spetsatom clean-up agency now teaches and advises on nuclear safety. Austria's environment ministry has used him as an adviser.
Andreev said a fire which released radiation on Tuesday involving spent fuel rods stored close to reactors at Fukushima looked like an example of putting profit before safety:
"The Japanese were very greedy and they used every square inch of the space. But when you have a dense placing of spent fuel in the basin you have a high possibility of fire if the water is removed from the basin," Andreev said.
The IAEA should share blame for standards, he said, arguing it was too close to corporations building and running plants. And he dismissed an emergency incident team set up by the Vienna-based agency as "only a think-tank not a working force":
"This is only a fake organization because every organization which depends on the nuclear industry - and the IAEA depends on the nuclear industry - cannot perform properly.
"It always will try to hide the reality.
"The IAEA ... is not interested in the concentration of attention on a possible accident in the nuclear industry. They are totally not interested in all the emergency organizations."
The IAEA had no immediate comment on Andreev's criticism.
Andreev said he understood all too well what the Japanese authorities in Fukushima were going through, and that creative solutions would be needed to contain the leaks.
"It is a situation of quiet panic. I know this situation," he said. "Discipline is the main thing in the industry but the emergency service requires creativity, requires some kind of even fantasy and improvisation."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/15/us-chernobyl-clean-up-expert-slams-japan-idUSTRE72E7AL20110315

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9rCc4SZNSI

Axe Rake

Information about the incident at the Fukushima Nuclear Plants in Japan maintained by the students of the Department of Nuclear Science and Engineering at MIT:

http://mitnse.com/

Turtwig

I love how he didn't mention that Chernobyl was built after Fukushima.

Edit : Damn you Axe. I was referring to the post by uprising, just in case someone thinks I'm dissing that excellent MIT blog.

Cathaoirleach

Overheal wrote: »

Trust me every media outlet is going to print the same information. a lot. they all want their own viewership and their own readers. It takes hours for some of them to catch up and publish the latest information, confusing people into thinking it's the latest information when quite often it's become stale.

I've actually stopped reading Google News because the vast majortity of 'fresh' articles are, as you said, recycled information.

Watching NHK and F5ing here keeps me well up-to-date.

Overheal

EU officials using the "A-Bomb" is starting to make its way through the media spin cycle:

http://gizmodo.com/#!5782239/european-officials-japan-nuclear-situation-is-out-of-control

:rolleyes:

(I agree it's got to be out of their hands by now, but calling it the Apocalypse is melodramatic even for this)

marco_polo

According to Sky news 2 workers are now missing after another explosion at the 4th reactor

uprising2

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

I've actually stopped reading Google News because the vast majortity of 'fresh' articles are, as you said, recycled information.

Watching NHK and F5ing here keeps me well up-to-date.

Why you F5ing?, its streaming.

shadowninty

Overheal wrote: »

EU officials using the "A-Bomb" is starting to make its way through the media spin cycle:

http://gizmodo.com/#!5782239/european-officials-japan-nuclear-situation-is-out-of-control

:rolleyes:

great.. the commission embarrassing themselves AGAIN

dreamer_ire

Reuters Reuters Top News



FLASH: Japan nuclear safety agency says 2 workers are missing after the explosion at Fukushima No. 4 reactor

These guys along with the rescue workers are the true heros. Hope they are found and are ok.

shadowninty

uprising2 wrote: »

Why you F5ing?, its streaming.

he's reloading This thread

Rob A. Bank

2037: The US-based Institute for Science and International Security (ISIS) has said it agrees with the assessment of France's Nuclear Safety Authority (ASN) that the incident at Fukushima should be classified as level 6 on the International Nuclear Event Scale (INES), one below Chernobyl.

Following a number of explosions and a fire at the plant which released dangerous levels of radiation, ISIS said the situation had "worsened considerably" and was now closer to a level 6 event. "It may unfortunately reach a level 7," it added.

The Sparrow

marco_polo wrote: »

According to Sky news 2 workers are now missing after another explosion at the 4th reactor

Sky are saying they are missing after yesterdays explosion not a new one.

Overheal

shadowninty wrote: »

great.. the commission embarrassing themselves AGAIN

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

2037: The US-based Institute for Science and International Security (ISIS) has said it agrees with the assessment of France's Nuclear Safety Authority (ASN) that the incident at Fukushima should be classified as level 6 on the International Nuclear Event Scale (INES), one below Chernobyl.

Following a number of explosions and a fire at the plant which released dangerous levels of radiation, ISIS said the situation had "worsened considerably" and was now closer to a level 6 event. "It may unfortunately reach a level 7," it added.

I have to agree with them at this point. It's all very logical. At this point Japanese officials are taking all the precautions but they are downplaying that this is spinning out of control, fast. I think the only thing they're still doing at this point is panic-aversion while those precautions come into full effect.

andrew

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

..."It may unfortunately reach a level 7," it added.

:eek:

aligator_am

Just wondering, if it comes down to it and the Japanese are forced to cover the reactor(s) in concrete, any idea how long that lasts?

Will Chernobyl need a "top up" of concrete in a few years? I'm assuming that the material could burn for a long time, so would this be an ongoing thing? Also, if the Japanese are forced to put these measures in to place, if there's another massive quake like this a few years down the road and the cover breaks badly, will they be back to square one?

Cathaoirleach

uprising2 wrote: »

Why you F5ing?, its streaming.

F5ing this thread.

gbee

aligator_am wrote: »

Will Chernobyl need a "top up" of concrete in a few years?

The sarcophagus is already crumbling and is so delicate that further 'repairs' cannot be undertaken. The reactor debris under it is still hot and a collapse would plunge Europe back into full scale fallout.

Dempsey

aligator_am wrote: »

Just wondering, if it comes down to it and the Japanese are forced to cover the reactor(s) in concrete, any idea how long that lasts?

Will Chernobyl need a "top up" of concrete in a few years? I'm assuming that the material could burn for a long time, so would this be an ongoing thing? Also, if the Japanese are forced to put these measures in to place, if there's another massive quake like this a few years down the road and the cover breaks badly, will they be back to square one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Safe_Confinement

Dempsey

gbee wrote: »

The sarcophagus is already crumbling and is so delicate that further 'repairs' cannot be undertaken. The reactor debris under it is still hot and a collapse would plunge Europe back into full scale fallout.

Really?

http://www.chernobylee.com/blog/2010/02/chernobyl-new-safe-confinement.php

The stabilization of the existing Sarcophagus was completed in 2009. This stabilization effort has increased the safe operation of the aging structure for at least 15 years.

uprising2

Japan PM: 'What the hell is going on'
"It's clear we are at Level 6, that's to say we're at a level in between what happened at Three Mile Island and Chernobyl," Lacoste said.
His remarks came as Japanese news agency Kyodo reported Prime Minister Naoto Kan was angry at not being told of a blast at Fukushima Daiichi's number 2 reactor yesterday.
"The TV reported an explosion, but nothing was said to the prime minister's office for more than an hour," Kan was reported to have said. "What the hell is going on?"
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10712738

If anybody knows what is going on, please email the PM of Japan.

Cathaoirleach

aligator_am wrote: »

Will Chernobyl need a "top up" of concrete in a few years?

Here you go:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwWID6WjeEU#t=7m6s

andrew

aligator_am wrote: »

Just wondering, if it comes down to it and the Japanese are forced to cover the reactor(s) in concrete, any idea how long that lasts?

Will Chernobyl need a "top up" of concrete in a few years? I'm assuming that the material could burn for a long time, so would this be an ongoing thing? Also, if the Japanese are forced to put these measures in to place, if there's another massive quake like this a few years down the road and the cover breaks badly, will they be back to square one?

They're building a new containment structure for Chernobyl right now, because the original is shit. So I suppose it'd need a top up depending on the quality of the original encasement.

If there's another massive quake (and that's unlikely) the problem won't be like it is now. Nuclear materials are only dangerous when they're spread into the environment in significant quantities. In this case, the fear is that there'll be a fire or another explosion which will spread nuclear material around, or that this has already happened to an extent.If in a few years the reactors were entombed and there was a quake, then a) the entombment building will be earthquake proofed just like all of the other currently standing nuclear buildings, and b) there won't be as much a danger of fire or explosion as the fuel will have cooled off significantly by then and c) they're probably locate backup generators further sea level in future.