Japanese earthquake / tsunami discussion

Helix

Overheal wrote: »

EU officials using the "A-Bomb" is starting to make its way through the media spin cycle:

http://gizmodo.com/#!5782239/european-officials-japan-nuclear-situation-is-out-of-control

:rolleyes:

(I agree it's got to be out of their hands by now, but calling it the Apocalypse is melodramatic even for this)

Apocalypse: Greek for revelation. Also suggests the disclosure of something hidden from the majority of mankind in an era dominated by falsehood and misconception, i.e. the veil to be lifted.

Helix

gbee wrote: »

The sarcophagus is already crumbling and is so delicate that further 'repairs' cannot be undertaken. The reactor debris under it is still hot and a collapse would plunge Europe back into full scale fallout.

doesnt that suggest europe was in full scale fallout when it originally happened? despite the hype, wasnt chernobyl relatively uneventful for everyone except those in the immediate area?

aligator_am

andrew wrote: »

They're building a new containment structure for Chernobyl right now, because the original is shit. So I suppose it'd need a top up depending on the quality of the original encasement.

If there's another massive quake (and that's unlikely) the problem won't be like it is now. Nuclear materials are only dangerous when they're spread into the environment in significant quantities. In this case, the fear is that there'll be a fire or another explosion which will spread nuclear material around, or that this has already happened to an extent.If in a few years the reactors were entombed and there was a quake, then a) the entombment building will be earthquake proofed just like all of the other currently standing nuclear buildings, and b) there won't be as much a danger of fire or explosion as the fuel will have cooled off significantly by then and c) they're probably locate backup generators further sea level in future.

Thanks for explaining, I wasn't sure about the details on the radioactivity getting out, and knew nothing about the new shell / cover being built for Chernobyl.

Am wondering though, if the radioactive material makes contact with the ground or soil and is then covered with concrete, would the radiation spread within a certain radius or just keep spreading?

Apologies if these are daft questions but I know very little about the subject, what would worry me is if the fuel rods or something got to the soil and contaminated the local water table, if that's even possible?

gbee

Helix wrote: »

doesnt that suggest europe was in full scale fallout when it originally happened? despite the hype, wasnt chernobyl relatively uneventful for everyone except those in the immediate area?

Hot spots. There are several hotspots in Ireland, for a time for instance organic some farmers lost their 'clean' tags.

andrew

aligator_am wrote: »

Thanks for explaining, I wasn't sure about the details on the radioactivity getting out, and knew nothing about the new shell / cover being built for Chernobyl.

Am wondering though, if the radioactive material makes contact with the ground or soil and is then covered with concrete, would the radiation spread within a certain radius or just keep spreading?

Apologies if these are daft questions but I know very little about the subject, what would worry me is if the fuel rods or something got to the soil and contaminated the local water table, if that's even possible?

Radioactive material can degrade, and then be transported by water through soil and into the water table, over a long period of time. Nuclear material can be encased to ensure that doesn't happen though.

gbee

aligator_am wrote: »

and contaminated the local water table, if that's even possible?

Google the story of Chernobyl, some excellent links are already in this thread [somewhere], but essentially this was the urgency in mining under the reactor to cut out a new chamber to catch the melting core materials and entomb them in a concrete basin.

This was to stop precisely what you mention, in the end the melting clumped and stopped moving downwards so the underground chamber was not used.

dreamer_ire

9pm: Japanese nuclear plant operator Tepco is considering removing panels from the No 5 and No 6 reactors at the damaged Fukushima nuclear site to prevent hydrogen build-up, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) has announced.
The IAEA said in a statement: "Units 5 and 6 were shut down at the time of the earthquake ... both reactors are currently loaded with fuel," and that "plant operators were considering the removal of panels from units 5 and 6 reactor buildings to prevent a possible build-up of hydrogen in the future".

Excuse my ignorance but is the purpose of this is to prevent another explosion? If they remove the panels any hydrogen that is building up can freely disapate, so this should prevent an explosion as a result of any build up. If this is such an obvious solution why did they not do this on all the reactors once the first one blew?

Rob A. Bank

Helix wrote: »

...despite the hype, wasnt chernobyl relatively uneventful for everyone except those in the immediate area?

If you believe that, you need to watch Adi Roche's documentary film “Chernobyl heart.”

(available for viewing online here)

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/chernobyl-heart/

"In Belarus, only 15-20% of babies are born healthy. Roche comforts children who are born with multiple holes in their heart, a condition known in Belarus as “Chernobyl heart.”"

gbee

dreamer_ire wrote: »

. If this is such an obvious solution why did they not do this on all the reactors once the first one blew?

Removing the panels loses outer containment and vents steam. They did vent steam [radioactive steam] but, at least one set of valves stuck in the closed position and they also seemed to have to wait for orders to release the steam as this was a serious thing to do ~ obviously now superseded by even more serious issues deserving even more drastic measures.

Thus, take the panels off and let the thing vent, it won't now add too much to their troubles or radioactivity levels.

Dempsey

dreamer_ire wrote: »

9pm: Japanese nuclear plant operator Tepco is considering removing panels from the No 5 and No 6 reactors at the damaged Fukushima nuclear site to prevent hydrogen build-up, the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) has announced.
The IAEA said in a statement: "Units 5 and 6 were shut down at the time of the earthquake ... both reactors are currently loaded with fuel," and that "plant operators were considering the removal of panels from units 5 and 6 reactor buildings to prevent a possible build-up of hydrogen in the future".

Excuse my ignorance but is the purpose of this is to prevent another explosion? If they remove the panels any hydrogen that is building up can freely disapate, so this should prevent an explosion as a result of any build up. If this is such an obvious solution why did they not do this on all the reactors once the first one blew?

Because you are effectively disabling secondary containment at the reactor.

IMO, they should have done this after the first explosion but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Where is Seamus, he'll explain that they were controlled explosions! :pac:

shadowninty

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

If you believe that, you need to watch Adi Roche's documentary film “Chernobyl heart.”

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/chernobyl-heart/

"In Belarus, only 15-20% of babies are born healthy. Roche comforts children who are born with multiple holes in their heart, a condition known in Belarus as “Chernobyl heart.”"

plenty of kids like that here too
i bet that figure is from 1986-7

andrew

If they're gonna remove panels from 5 and 6, that means they fear that there might be a Hydrogen build up there...which means they fear that those reactors have at least partially melted down, or will partially melt down also. This is at odds with information provided earlier today here which says that those reactors are perfectly fine.

Cathaoirleach

Helix wrote: »

doesnt that suggest europe was in full scale fallout when it originally happened?

A second Chernobyl explosion would have made most of Europe uninhabitable, but for the brave actions of the army reserves and civillian volunteers.

It is really scary if you read about it.

This clip explains what could have happened.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zByDY-nPNJc#t=5m9s

Dempsey

andrew wrote: »

If they're gonna remove panels from 5 and 6, that means they fear that there might be a Hydrogen build up there...which means they fear that those reactors have at least partially melted down, or will partially melt down also. This is at odds with information provided earlier today here which says that those reactors are perfectly fine.

Information this morning is that the spent fuel ponds in 5 & 6 were heating for unknown reasons. If you have a hydrogen explosion, you run the risk of fires similar/worse to what happened in Reactor 4.

gbee

andrew wrote: »

.which means they fear that those reactors have at least partially melted down, or will partially melt down also. .

It's the spent fuel rods in their containment pools that are heating up. The actual reactors are not heating up.

aligator_am

From what I'm reading here and other places it seems that TEPCO are offering less than full disclosure, is there a cut of point for this in your opinions? I mean are they going to say that all is hunky dory and 2 hours later we read the direct opposite is true? Others have pointed out in the looting thread that Japanese folk are respectful of authority severely, what would worry me is if they respected TEPCO's "authority" and were then told several hours later that by the way, you've been exposed to large doses of radiation.

I know others have pointed out here about the levels of radiation not being lethal etc. but what I'm saying is that I don't like the idea that people of good faith being lied to, if that makes sense?

Rob A. Bank

Here is a diagram of the type of reactor which is causing the present dilemma :-

The spent fuel pool is on the third floor just below the orange crane.

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhzb23MSpu1qbnrqd.jpg

(PS. Is posting pics impossible on this thread ? )

3ndahalfof6

breaking news from NHK fire breaks out at reactor 4

dreamer_ire

BreakingNews Breaking News



Japan's government says flames are rising fromreactor at Dai-Ichi nuclear plant - AP

Thrill

NHK: #Fukushima fire seen at northwest corner on 4th floor, same place as last night

gargleblaster

gbee wrote: »

It's the spent fuel rods in their containment pools that are heating up. The actual reactors are not heating up.

the partial meltdowns they keep referring to are about the fuel rods in the reactors themselves.

3ndahalfof6

gbee

gargleblaster wrote: »

the partial meltdowns they keep referring to are about the fuel rods in the reactors themselves.

Yes, partial meltdown in three reactors. Possible partial meltdown of spent fuel rods in reactor No4 complex, No.4 reactor is itself is 'cold'

th3 s1aught3r

gbee wrote: »

Yes, partial meltdown in three reactors. Possible partial meltdown of spent fuel rods in reactor No4 complex, No.4 reactor is itself is 'cold'

Whats the worst case scenario if all reactors melt down ?
Are we talking Chernobyl ?

Mister men

Don't blame anyone for getting out of the country. This is not going to end well no matter what anyone says. Feel so terrible for the Japenese people. Their country seems to be on the brink of doomsday.

Rob A. Bank

aligator_am wrote: »

From what I'm reading here and other places it seems that TEPCO are offering less than full disclosure, is there a cut of point for this in your opinions? I mean are they going to say that all is hunky dory and 2 hours later we read the direct opposite is true? Others have pointed out in the looting thread that Japanese folk are respectful of authority severely, what would worry me is if they respected TEPCO's "authority" and were then told several hours later that by the way, you've been exposed to large doses of radiation.

I know others have pointed out here about the levels of radiation not being lethal etc. but what I'm saying is that I don't like the idea that people of good faith being lied to, if that makes sense?

I hope that now that TEPCO has been sidelined and the government have taken charge with the American experts and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) the quality of information will improve.

In fairness to them, I feel they felt that the situation was recoverable initially and they were trying to prevent panic by spinning half truths and lies.

It became ridiculous when the US 7th fleet was scuttling away from a radioactive plume while they were still saying that there was no significant radioactive release.

The game was up once the wind blew onshore and the deception was exposed

th3 s1aught3r

I know nothing about Nuclear reactors but I am really horrified by how difficult they seem to be to control if something goes wrong :eek:

aligator_am

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

Not trying to be funny but in outbreak of nuclear leak sealing up the house the 1st thing I'd do is have a cup of coffee with 1.5 spoons of sugar to calm the nerves! Where did you find that pic?

Thrill

TEPCO say fresh fire in the #Fukushima No 4 reactor erupted in the outer housing of the reactor's containment vessel

Mister men

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

I hope that now that TEPCO has been sidelined and the government have taken charge with the American experts and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) the quality of information will improve.

In fareness to them, I feel they felt that the situation was recoverable initially and they were trying to prevent panic by spinning half truths and lies.

It became ridiculous when the US 7th fleet was scuttling away from a radioactive plume while they were still saying that there was no significant radioactive release.

The game was up once the wind blew onshore and the deception was exposed

It's the normal guy on the street i feel sorry for. Their government have lied to them from the start here and now they are slowly realising the full extent this disaster is going to take.