Japanese earthquake / tsunami discussion

Dempsey

andrew wrote: »

As the post which you quoted notes, Plutonium is most dangerous when it's in a form which can be breathed in. In Chernobyl, the solidifed form which the Pu has taken would be turned to dust by a collapse of the sarcophagus, making it breathable and hence very dangerous. So no, that video isn't scaremongering in the sense that the threat it says exists does actually exist. Though saying there's enough Pu there to kill 100 million people is a bit silly. Maybe if you systematically exposed 100 million people to the entire amount Pu that's there yes, but only then.

Someone asked how dangerous a plumb of burning spent fuel would be, i tried to give some information on what is in spent fuel.

I wasnt talking about the 100million bit but the amount it takes to kill a person.

Jayob10

excellent thread, very informative and does a great job of dampening the scare mongering that alot of media outlets have been dishing out.

Sky News take the biscuit, its like they are willing an ultimate meltdown to occur so it will jolt their ratings, im half expecting a countdown clock to appear anytime soon. Its terrible stuff.

Now im putting my inquisitive hat on and pardon any silly question I may ask, but is this really just Chernobyl in slow motion? Is utter catastrophe inevitable? Is it a case that the Japanese people are relying on their prayers at this stage that its not another Chernobyl?

I know radiation levels are not as high but is it only really a matter of time before theres total exposure of the rods and that they will eventually burn?

Hotblack Desiato

Dempsey wrote: »

So 299Pu & 240Pu are still health hazards?

Yes but the fission products in the fuel rods are more of a concern IMHO - they are shorter-lived so will emit most of their radiation within a human lifetime (therefore bad news if inside your body) and some of them are gases and will escape if the containment is breached.

Pu and U are very heavy and tend to stay where they are put. The risk is a fire or spontaneous oxidation of Pu or U metal, which produces dangerous dust which can be inhaled (although still extremely heavy dust which needs something else to spread it if it's going to spread far.) That's a contamination risk in fuel processing plants and nuclear weapon factories but seems remote in this scenario. AFAIK the fuel would already be in the form of uranium oxide (and in some cases mixed with plutonium oxide, 'mixed oxide') which is a lot less reactive chemically.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwWID6WjeEU#t=7m56s

So this man is scaremongering?

If I watch that random video I'm not going to get that 8 minutes of my life back, so can you summarise please?

andrew

jamesbrond wrote: »

There is educating yourself and there is reading any old link and then repeating it as gospel that you somehow know to be true.

Unless you are reading a different thread to the one im reading, its full to the brim of armchair experts.

Obviously this thread is full of arm chair experts - what else do you expect?

andrew

Dempsey wrote: »

Someone asked how dangerous a plumb of burning spent fuel would be, i tried to give some information on what is in spent fuel.

I wasnt talking about the 100million bit but the amount it takes to kill a person.

I was just responding specifically to the poster asking if the video re. the Pu in Chernobyl was scaremongering.

Dempsey

ninja900 wrote: »

Yes but the fission products in the fuel rods are more of a concern IMHO - they are shorter-lived so will emit most of their radiation within a human lifetime (therefore bad news if inside your body) and some of them are gases and will escape if the containment is breached.

Pu and U are very heavy and tend to stay where they are put. The risk is a fire or spontaneous oxidation of Pu or U metal, which produces dangerous dust which can be inhaled (although still extremely heavy dust which needs something else to spread it if it's going to spread far.) That's a contamination risk in fuel processing plants and nuclear weapon factories but seems remote in this scenario. AFAIK the fuel would already be in the form of uranium oxide (and in some cases mixed with plutonium oxide, 'mixed oxide') which is a lot less reactive chemically.

If I watch that random video I'm not going to get that 8 minutes of my life back, so can you summarise please?

Again I say that someone asked how dangerous a plumb of burning spent fuel would be, i tried to give some information on what is in spent fuel. So try to keep what I said in context.

The video jumps to the point about how much it takes to kill a person

Cathaoirleach

Jaysus, I have to say, the Fukushima thing really worries me. I live 25km south of the Cofrentes Nuclear Plant (BWR-1975), which has had 3 minor incidents in 2011 already.

The whole Japan thing has really educated me on the workings of nuclear plants and the dangers posed.

Obviously, I'm fine here, but it is not nice knowing that I live so close to a potential Ground Zero.

Dempsey

andrew wrote: »

I was just responding specifically to the poster asking if the video re. the Pu in Chernobyl was scaremongering.

Well, you were out of context and referring to a point in the video that was irrelevant to what I was saying.

jamesbrond

Mister men wrote: »

It's day time in Japan now.

It is now.
At the time he posted it had been dark all night and only morning for a couple of hours. Your post implied it had been a long time since you saw a live stream. So what time frame were you talking about?

Mister men wrote: »

Actually when is the last time anyone has seen a live stream of the nuclear plant? Seems strange all of a sudden no pictures coming back from there

<SNIP>
Second thoughts I'll remove that part. Even though its inside knowledge I havent confirmed it personally, so dont want to worry people.

Overheal

to give you a contrast some of the vehicles abandoned at Chernobyl that were involved in the cleanup effort, today, are still giving off 10-30 rontgen/hr, or up to a little over 2-3 Sv

Also I was trying to find out what the event-levels were in pripyat but I stumbled across this third-party thread first, full of eery Pripyat tour photos. Worth a look.

http://forums.filefront.com/s-t-l-k-e-r-soc-general-discussion/379832-my-trip-chernobyl-pictures-56k-ultra-death.html

Still looking for information about the levels in Pripyat I'd like to gather if Fukushima Prefecture and it's surroundings will be inhabitable afterward.

Rob A. Bank

A problem with seawater ?

I presume they are using seawater to cool the reactors/fuel-ponds is because the quake/tsunami disrupted normal supply and it was the only coolant available to them. This poster raises an interesting problem and another dilemma...

"As a marine engineer with 30 years experience with saltwater and steam, I know that when saltwater is used to cool a boiling hot surface, that scale is left. Within hours this scale gets thicker and thicker, greatly reducing heat transfer. At some point the heat can no longer effectively be removed from the source. Now, if these rods are hotter than 100degC, as I presume, due to the fact that steam is being made, we could have a real problem."

Another problem heaped on top of all they have to deal with already ?

andrew

Dempsey wrote: »

Well, you were out of context and referring to a point in the video that was irrelevant to what I was saying.

Ah right, didn't realise I had been responding to you. Sorry about the confusion.

Turtwig

Overheal wrote: »

Also I was trying to find out what the event-levels were in pripyat but I stumbled across this third-party thread first, full of eery Pripyat tour photos. Worth a look.

Jesus it's like a ghost town. Reminds me of some other mining town or something that was completely abandoned after a mining accident and left like a modern day Pompeii. Think it was in Japan.

Run_to_da_hills

daelight wrote: »

It approx 30cpm in Tokyo right now. Take a flight and at 35,000 ft you will be in an 350 cpm environment.

But you are back out of it again in a couple of hours not continually exposed to it.

Hotblack Desiato

Overheal wrote: »

to give you a contrast some of the vehicles abandoned at Chernobyl that were involved in the cleanup effort, today, are still giving off 10-30 rontgen/hr, or up to a little over 2-3 Sv

Also I was trying to find out what the event-levels were in pripyat but I stumbled across this third-party thread first, full of eery Pripyat tour photos. Worth a look.

http://forums.filefront.com/s-t-l-k-e-r-soc-general-discussion/379832-my-trip-chernobyl-pictures-56k-ultra-death.html

Still looking for information about the levels in Pripyat I'd like to gather if Fukushima Prefecture and it's surroundings will be inhabitable afterward.

Totally irrelevant unless you can demonstrate that this accident scenario is similar to Chernobyl. It's not. The reactor is of a totally different design and the accident is of a totally different nature.

Overheal

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

A problem with seawater ?

I presume they are using seawater to cool the reactors/fuel-ponds is because the quake/tsunami disrupted normal supply and it was the only coolant available to them. This poster raises an interesting problem and another dilemma...

"As a marine engineer with 30 years experience with saltwater and steam, I know that when saltwater is used to cool a boiling hot surface, that scale is left. Within hours this scale gets thicker and thicker, greatly reducing heat transfer. At some point the heat can no longer effectively be removed from the source. Now, if these rods are hotter than 100degC, as I presume, due to the fact that steam is being made, we could have a real problem."

Another problem heaped on top of all they have to deal with already ?

That would do it, yep.

Samantha Carter why cant you be real?

Paparazzo

The Shtig wrote: »

I've found this thread very helpful and gave me a better understanding of what's going on. I don't see how people are being 'know it alls'.

How can you trust some news sources when there are examples like the sun's front page posted above, it's complete scare mongering. This thread did the opposite, I remember two days ago Overheal and other posters giving very good info and showing there was no need for the hysteria at the time and it was very reassuring. They have been providing reputable links as well showing it's not just them speculating.

dreamer_ire wrote: »

+1 Couldn't agree more, Overheal in particular and one or two other posters are what I scan this thread for when I get in from work each evening.

Funny, was just going to post something similar! I actually check this thread in the mornings ahead of news sites! Doomsday scenarios sell! (y2k bug, bird flu, sars, etc etc)

De Dannan

uncleoswald wrote: »

Strangely I feel the opposite watching all this unfold. I had presumed that after all the hits the plants have taken that we'd be seeing mushroom clouds over Japan by now. Wonderful work by all the engineers who designed and built it and the workers fighting to keep everything under control at the moment.

Just because you dont see 'mushroom clouds' that doesnt mean there is no problem with radiation. :eek:

Dempsey

Malty_T wrote: »

Jesus it's like a ghost town. Reminds me of some other mining town or something that was completely abandoned after a mining accident and left like a modern day Pompeii. Think it was in Japan.

Like? It is a ghost town, nobody has lived there since the accident.

Some more pictures

http://timmsuess.com/chernobyl-journal/chernobyl-journal-the-pictures/

Think he used HDR taking the pictures

kona

jackiebaron wrote: »

Now compare what the Japanese did in 5 days to the "Number 1 Nation on Earth" who still haven't cleaned up the Gulf, who still haven't rebuilt so much as a park-bench in Manhattan South after nearly 10 years and who still mope about New Orleans, parts of which still look like a scene from Mad Max, 5 years later.

Number 1 Nation on Earth is currently providing much needed aid to the japanese. What are you doing? Putting gick all over a disaster thread.

Turtwig

ninja900 wrote: »

Totally irrelevant unless you can demonstrate that this accident scenario is similar to Chernobyl. It's not. The reactor is of a totally different design and the accident is of a totally different nature.

Actually it depends what "accident" happens at Fukushima. Reactor core incidents won't be same as Chernobyl. But the spent fuel could still possibly have a fission like explosion like Chernobyl if it is not brought under control. This possibility is absolutely tiny of course and it would take an extreme set of circumstances for it to occur.

mgmt

I was thinking of the 50 remaining workers at the Fukishima plant and came across this silent video of the Chernobyl workers after the explosion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkjAAzkrXSA

Run_to_da_hills

Heaps of white smoke billowing out of the plant near NO 4 ATM

NHK LIVE.

Overheal

ninja900 wrote: »

Totally irrelevant unless you can demonstrate that this accident scenario is similar to Chernobyl. It's not. The reactor is of a totally different design and the accident is of a totally different nature.

while that is true radiation is rather universal. Once it's out it's out. Being able to compare the levels is a check and balance against what official sources are portraying.

andrew

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Heaps of white smoke billowing out of the plant near NO 4 ATM

NHK LIVE.

Christ that can't be good

Cathaoirleach

There is a large amount of smoke/steam coming from one of the reactors.

What's happening?

Cathaoirleach

NHK are not reporting, but Twitter is.

Run_to_da_hills

andrew wrote: »

Christ that can't be good

Sounds like steam from the salt water that is being used to dampen the fire / heat in NO 4.

andrew

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Sounds like steam from the salt water that is being used to dampen the fire / heat in NO 4.

The huge quantities of steam make it seem as though the fire was pretty big, if that it steam.

Duggy747

Watch the ground come alive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LPGzzaSsbU

Liquefaction of the area.