Japanese earthquake / tsunami discussion

Run_to_da_hills

UK government urging all British nationals to leave Tokyo now.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html

maquiladora

Fingers crossed!

AP: Japan electric company says new power line that could solve nuclear crisis is almost ready

This could be very good news.

Rob A. Bank

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

So much for the 'everything is ok' brigade
It gets better then the next thing its worse

I think this is the end of nuclear power, its just too dangerous to mess with
Clean energy my ass

The trouble is that the demand for energy (without massive CO2 impact) means that nuclear energy is going to have to be in the mix going forward. In Ireland we probably have enough wind and wave energy to harness, but other countries do not have that luxury.

The Dutch, who have nuclear reactors in flood prone areas, have the electrics and the diesel backup generators in waterproof sealed units with a snorkel to take in air if flooding occurs.

The problems in Japanese plant all flow from the fact that the generators and electrics were in the basement, which was flooded by the tsunami. Thus they cant power the pumps and valves to keep the fuel rods covered in water. A fatal design flaw... as they are finding out to their cost right now.

yammycat

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

The Dutch, who have nuclear reactors in flood prone areas, have the electrics and the diesel backup generators in waterproof sealed units with a snorkel to take in air if flooding occurs.

what happens if a kid sticks a potato in the snorkel for a laugh.

ectoraige

iguana wrote: »

6600 times .5 is 3300. 6600 times 195-330 is roughly 0.03-0.05.

Typo, I do apologise. Anyway, you've answered your own question, the normal around there must be around 0.05. While the reading of 330 was clearly high compared to normal, it's still not considered a dangerous dose. Remember, these are micro-sieverts being quoted here.

snowstreams

ectoraige wrote: »

Typo, I do apologise. Anyway, you've answered your own question, the normal around there must be around 0.05. While the reading of 330 was clearly high compared to normal, it's still not considered a dangerous dose. Remember, these are micro-sieverts being quoted here.

According to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sievert
2mSv a year is normal background radiation for a typical person worldwide.
So thats about 0.2 micro Sv/hour.

Rob A. Bank

maquiladora wrote: »

Fingers crossed!

AP: Japan electric company says new power line that could solve nuclear crisis is almost ready

This could be very good news.

I certainly hope so... but I imagine trying to plug in salt-water soaked, contaminated and probably damaged electrics in a radioactive environment will be a quite a problem.

I dont envy the electrician...

th3 s1aught3r

Thirty-five years ago, Dale G. Bridenbaugh and two of his colleagues at General Electric resigned from their jobs after becoming increasingly convinced that the nuclear reactor design they were reviewing -- the Mark 1 -- was so flawed it could lead to a devastating accident.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fukushima-mark-nuclear-reactor-design-caused-ge-scientist/story?id=13141287

iguana

Why is there so much talk about leaving Tokyo? Fukushima is nearly 250km from Tokyo. It's like a power plant exploded in Cork and people were told to leave Dublin, except Japan is densely populated and Ireland is not. What about everyone in between and in the other parts of the same radius as the wind isn't blowing from Fukushima to Tokyo?

Turtwig

iguana wrote: »

Why is there so much talk about leaving Tokyo? Fukushima is nearly 250km from Tokyo. It's like a power plant exploded in Cork and people were told to leave Dublin, except Japan is densely populated and Ireland is not. What about everyone in between and in the other parts of the same radius as the wind isn't blowing from Fukushima to Tokyo?

In all honesty, I think the French idea of evacuating Tokyo is rather pathetic. It's purely a political stunt to show they care about radiation safety because the country is so heavily reliant on Nuclear Power.

Anyways, this paints quite a picture.

Small teams of the still-anonymous emergency workers rush in and out for 10 to 15 minutes at a time to pump sea water into the plant's overheated reactors, monitor them and clear debris from explosions. Any longer would make their exposure to radioactivity too great.Even at normal times, workers wear coveralls, full-face masks with filters, helmets and double-layer gloves when they enter areas with a possibility of radiation exposure. Some of them carry oxygen tanks so they don't have to inhale any radioactive particles into their lungs.

cherryghost

The level 4 alert is still in place. Tonight's going to decide the outcome so it seems. Fingers crossed things go well.

Just to compare, Sellafield has had a level 5 alert, 5 level 4 alerts and 15 level 3 alerts yet they still get away scott free (with a few fines).

Rob A. Bank

iguana wrote: »

Why is there so much talk about leaving Tokyo? Fukushima is nearly 250km from Tokyo. It's like a power plant exploded in Cork and people were told to leave Dublin, except Japan is densely populated and Ireland is not. What about everyone in between and in the other parts of the same radius as the wind isn't blowing from Fukushima to Tokyo?

The Americans have stationed their 7th fleet ships off the west coast of Japan because of the radiation. That is like anchoring in Galway bay to deal with a problem in Dublin and the east coast.

Perhaps they know something which is being kept quiet so far ?

Watch What They Do, Not What They Say!

karma_

iguana wrote: »

Why is there so much talk about leaving Tokyo? Fukushima is nearly 250km from Tokyo. It's like a power plant exploded in Cork and people were told to leave Dublin, except Japan is densely populated and Ireland is not. What about everyone in between and in the other parts of the same radius as the wind isn't blowing from Fukushima to Tokyo?

When Chernobyl went, it affected large parts of Europe, including Ireland.

Rob A. Bank

Malty_T wrote: »

In all honesty, I think the French idea of evacuating Tokyo is rather pathetic. It's purely a political stunt to show they care about radiation safety because the country is so heavily reliant on Nuclear Power.

The UK, Australia, Germany and many other nations have advised their citizens to leave too...

Overheal

maquiladora wrote: »

Fingers crossed!

AP: Japan electric company says new power line that could solve nuclear crisis is almost ready

This could be very good news.

I was almost wondering if they thought about parking the USS Reagan in front of Fukushima Daiichi and running a jumper cable...

too far fetched? I doubt they would want to put the reagan and her 5,680 strong crew in that much of harms way

th3 s1aught3r wrote: »

So much for the 'everything is ok' brigade
It gets better then the next thing its worse

I think this is the end of nuclear power, its just too dangerous to mess with
Clean energy my ass

Dont blame the car blame the driver. TEPCO's history is coming to light. It's not shiny. They falsified many of their records to appear up to standard.

Meanwhile germany has shut down all of it's Daiishi-type reactors and will begin conducting a complete safety review.

Newer reactors already operate on a walk-away principle: Passive Cooling systems and the like, which can't be knocked out by loss of power. That's really been the biggest problem here. The Daiishi plant held up to Earthquakes like a champion, but in a stroke of ineptitude it looks like there was no consideration for the Tsunami, which flooded the backup diesel generators. You can bet they will now standardize water-tight backup systems with snorkel intake and exhaust.

The Americans have stationed their 7th fleet ships off the west coast of Japan because of the radiation. That is like anchoring in Galway bay to deal with a problem in Dublin and the east coast.

Perhaps they know something which is being kept quiet so far ?

Or like everyone else they don't want to be caught in a terrible position if the worst should happen. I couldn't tell you how much lead time a fleet needs to make a movement, especially if the fleet is ashore providing aid. It looks bad for the nation, the military, and a major blow to national security if you lost the entire 7th fleet to radiation sickness. Their operation is Aid to the Japanese people, the Nuclear Plant was a secondary concern. They are assisting with it but they aren't running roughshod into the danger. Air patrols are trying to assert where the winds have carried the radiation that has already leaked and UAVs are above the plant spectrum-analyzing the situation.

edit:

"On 14 March 2011, the ship was forced to relocate to avoid a radioactive plume from the Fukushima I nuclear accidents which had irradiated 17 crewmembers of three helicopter crews.[27]"

Rob A. Bank

Overheal wrote: »

"On 14 March 2011, the ship was forced to relocate to avoid a radioactive plume from the Fukushima I nuclear accidents which had irradiated 17 crewmembers of three helicopter crews."

Not just the USS Ronald Regan...

"The carrier is one of seven US Navy ships that were quickly moved to the eastern coast of Japan to assist with relief operations after Friday's earthquake and tsunami."

http://abcnews.go.com/International/uss-carrier-ronald-reagan-moved-detecting-radioactive-plume/story?id=13129409

Overheal

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

Not just the USS Ronald Regan...

"The carrier is one of seven US Navy ships that were quickly moved to the eastern coast of Japan to assist with relief operations after Friday's earthquake and tsunami."

http://abcnews.go.com/International/uss-carrier-ronald-reagan-moved-detecting-radioactive-plume/story?id=13129409

Yes, thats rather the point of a Carrier Strike Group. Aircraft Carriers never ever operate alone.

whatstherush

Greg Jaczko, chairman of the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission
"no more water in spent fuel pool at troubled Japan plant" link

maquiladora

Hopefully that new power line works....


US nuclear regulator tells Congress there us no more water left in spent fuel pool at Japanese plant. - AP

US Nuclear Regulatory Comission says the evacuation area around the Fukushima is smaller than it would recommend. - Reuters

Rob A. Bank

2010: More on the power line being laid to the Fukushima Daiichi plant to help restore the reactor cooling systems: Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco) spokesman Naoki Tsunoda has said it is almost complete, and that engineers plan to test it "as soon as possible", according to the Associated Press. Reviving the electric-powered pumps might allow the engineers to finaly cool the overheated reactors and spent fuel storage ponds.

Overheal

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_AZySJdar_ew/TI_UE2eCjoI/AAAAAAAABoE/_0b7lIG7bZA/s320/20090828-good-news-everyone.jpg

Mister men

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

The Americans have stationed their 7th fleet ships off the west coast of Japan because of the radiation. That is like anchoring in Galway bay to deal with a problem in Dublin and the east coast.

Perhaps they know something which is being kept quiet so far ?

Watch What They Do, Not What They Say!

I don't think there is any doubt in anyones mind we are not being told the full story with this nuclear disaster unfolding. The fact we have'nt seen any video or pictures of the reactors in two days now tells me a cover up is well under way. Very worrying indeed.:(

Overheal

Mister men wrote: »

I don't think there is any doubt in anyones mind we are not being told the full story with this nuclear disaster unfolding. The fact we have'nt seen any video or pictures of the reactors in two days now tells me a cover up is well under way. Very worrying indeed.:(

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kXOWPH4IhMQ/TYBjL7SV7-I/AAAAAAAAbM4/PLUj6l1-rp4/s400/Fukushima%2Breactor%2B4%2Bdamaged.jpg

thats the one CNN likes anyway

this is from today at no. 4 reactor I believe

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-I_3STZLnYVA/TXt2FS__R3I/AAAAAAAABQs/f8pEbEunQuA/s1600/fukushima-explosion.jpg

It's kinda hard to censor that.

iguana

karma_ wrote: »

When Chernobyl went, it affected large parts of Europe, including Ireland.

A big part of the reason for that was the direction of the wind. Afaik the wind is not blowing from Fukushima to Tokyo, it's blowing out to sea. If there is a genuine need to tell people to leave Tokyo then there would be millions and millions of people in the full radius of 250km around Fukushima.

Thrill

Mister men wrote: »

I don't think there is any doubt in anyones mind we are not being told the full story with this nuclear disaster unfolding. The fact we have'nt seen any video or pictures of the reactors in two days now tells me a cover up is well under way. Very worrying indeed.:(

NHK had a helicopter showing footage yesterday.

Fallschirmjager

there is another simpler reason and it could be you know they are working flat out to stop a nuclear disaster after the 4th worst earthquake in recorded history and a tsunami out of the bible and really dont have taking a photo high on their priority list to calm the nerves of people in ireland...just sayin

it reminds more of that quote from the space programme i saw recently, cant remember it fully but it went like this...

we are on step 9 of 900 things to fix , you are talking about item number 742

andrew

Overheal wrote: »

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-kXOWPH4IhMQ/TYBjL7SV7-I/AAAAAAAAbM4/PLUj6l1-rp4/s400/Fukushima%2Breactor%2B4%2Bdamaged.jpg

thats the one CNN likes anyway

this is from today at no. 4 reactor I believe

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-I_3STZLnYVA/TXt2FS__R3I/AAAAAAAABQs/f8pEbEunQuA/s1600/fukushima-explosion.jpg

It's kinda hard to censor that.

I thought that picture with the black smoke was of the oil refinery no?

maquiladora

Mister men wrote: »

I don't think there is any doubt in anyones mind we are not being told the full story with this nuclear disaster unfolding. The fact we have'nt seen any video or pictures of the reactors in two days now tells me a cover up is well under way. Very worrying indeed.:(

I think that's more to do with the exclusion zone and the no fly zone than anything else.

Tepco have released photos and commercial imaging satellites can see it too.

However, we now know there is a difference of opinion between the US and the Japanese. The danger zone around the plant for American citizens is 80km, for Japanese its 20-30km.

Overheal

andrew wrote: »

I thought that picture with the black smoke was of the oil refinery no?

maybe. it was coupled to a blog post about the no 4 fire though.

Fallschirmjager wrote: »

it reminds more of that quote from the space programme i saw recently, cant remember it fully but it went like this...

we are on step 9 of 900 things to fix , you are talking about item number 742

I quoted it earlier, it was from the movie adaptation of the Apollo 13 mission, Cpt. Jim Lovell played by Tom Hanks (whether or not the quote is verbatim from mission debriefings I dont know):

... There's a thousand things that have to happen in order. We are on number eight. You're talking about number six hundred and ninety-two.

cherryghost

Live feed of the plants here

http://www.tepco.co.jp/nu/f1-np/camera/index-j.html

Camera is pitch black as its 5am there of course. Few hours time and you'll be able to see something.