Japanese earthquake / tsunami discussion

Rob A. Bank

A good article on the spent fuel pools with a diagram of the reactor building..

http://allthingsnuclear.org/post/3892719255/spent-fuel-pools-at-fukushima

maquiladora

IAEA says two people are missing at the plant.

Rob A. Bank

uprising2 wrote: »

Yea so I cant see the 11 watercannon trucks on standby being able to be used, the "protected" helicoptors only dropped 2 each?, then had enough radiation from the brief flyovers.



They were showing fairly ordinary looking trucks earlier on, normal firetrucks and police riot control watercannon trucks that can't possibly get close enough for long enough, the trucks will be glowing bright green.

Turn on the water cannon and run like hell ?

Then run back and drive them away for a refill ?

Or leave them there until the radiation diminishes in about 50 years time ?

Topper Harley01

maquiladora wrote: »

IAEA says two people are missing at the plant.

That was from the initial tsunami I believe.

Regarding the helicopters, the heat would make hovering overhead too risky-the turbine engines would literally start to melt if they sucked in a blast of super heated air.

They are also dropping from a height as it disperses the spray-7 tonnes of water dropping in a small condensed load would do enormous damage. Also, there is something called shock cooling to consider. If you went from very hot to very cold (by dropping water onto a reactor) you would risk cracking any metal surfaces.

So it's a good call overall from the heli crews. I would imagine they are rotating the crews on a regular basis to minimise exposure to the crews.

Thrill

New power lines being planned for cooling system


The operator of the quake-damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant says it is trying to install new power lines to reactivate its cooling systems in a desperate effort to stop the ongoing radioactive leakage.

Tokyo Electric Power Company says it wants to start the work to install the new lines as early as Thursday morning.

Emergency diesel power generators in the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant failed to work because of a power blackout following the earthquake. They were also damaged by the ensuing tsunami.

The troubled diesel power generators caused the cooling systems to fail, which then affected the Number-1, -2 and -3 reactors. All the spent fuel rods housed in the 6 reactor buildings were also affected.

As a result, the rods remained hot and exposed above the surface of the coolant water. Damage and melting may have occurred.

The top priority at the moment is restoring the functions of the cooling systems now that radiation is continuing to leak from the plant.

Tokyo Power Electric Company says it is considering laying new power lines into the plant directly from cables of another power company. The company says it hopes to reactivate the cooling systems by connecting the cables to a makeshift switchboard and using them as an emergency power source for the systems.

But the company says it was unable to carry out the work on Wednesday because of high readings of radiation in the compound.

The company says it will try to complete the installation as soon as possible after reviewing the procedures in order to keep the workers' radiation exposure to a minimum.

Sierra Oscar

One does wonder if the primary cooling systems are even in a state to function anymore considering all that has occurred?

Rob A. Bank

Thrill wrote: »

But the company says it was unable to carry out the work on Wednesday because of high readings of radiation in the compound.

Sounds like Catch 22... if they dont get the power in the radiation levels will soar, but they cant get the lines in because the radiation is too high.

uprising2

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

Turn on the water cannon and run like hell ?

Then run back and drive them away for a refill ?

Or leave them there until the radiation diminishes in about 50 years time ?

You should be put in control of operations, better idea than they seem to have, the fire trucks are on stand-by, it would be a suicide mission.

hmmm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

One does wonder if the primary cooling systems are even in a state to function anymore considering all that has occurred?

If the cooling system water pipes are the large silver ones, they are lying on the ground in pieces from what I could see from photos of at least 2 of the reactors - and I doubt many survive inside the containment buildings that exploded.

maquiladora

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

One does wonder if the primary cooling systems are even in a state to function anymore considering all that has occurred?

Its a case of hoping for the best and trying all they can.

I hope the workers at the plant get some good luck, they've had their share of bad...

uprising2

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

One does wonder if the primary cooling systems are even in a state to function anymore considering all that has occurred?

Exactly, I don't believe a word from them at this stage, they know whats coming but are in such a state of denial and honour and will probably keep trying long after they know it's already passed the point of no return, which I think has been already passed.

Just heard pumps are fecked...setting up temorarily cooling system.

They ought to get all their fancy robots up from Tokyo, and get them in doing the work men cant.

Remote trucks, with an inlet hose, send them down get the inlet into the sea and start the engine, also on a fuel line to keep it going.

I wonder can they not do a mcguiver and use remote tanks and bulldozers to clear a path, send in as many remote pumptrucks as they can and just keep pumping, but to be honest I think the time for water saving anything much is gone.

Topper Harley01

I must say, the more I see of this, the more I'm convinced that things really aren't as bad as is being depicted. Ok, the situation is still quite serious, but to put it in some sort of context-it's not quite as rosy as TEPCO are saying, but......it's not as dreadful as the US is saying either.

Obviously there has been a leak of radiation, but I don't think we're going to see a mass evacuation of Tokyo or anything of that scale. The Western media and tabloids are blowing it waaaaay out of proportion. Divide what they are saying by ten and that is probably the true representation.

I'm quite confident that the power and coolant will have been restored by this time tomorrow.

Thrill

It definitely looks like a now or never operation.

The Japanese defence minister is about to give an update on how the water drops went.

Jayob10

Topper Harley01 wrote: »

I must say, the more I see of this, the more I'm convinced that things really aren't as bad as is being depicted. Ok, the situation is still quite serious, but to put it in some sort of context-it's not quite as rosy as TEPCO are saying, but......it's not as dreadful as the US is saying either.

Obviously there has been a leak of radiation, but I don't think we're going to see a mass evacuation of Tokyo or anything of that scale. The Western media and tabloids are blowing it waaaaay out of proportion. Divide what they are saying by ten and that is probably the true representation.

I'm quite confident that the power and coolant will have been restored by this time tomorrow.

Comical Ali??

Turtwig

Topper Harley01 wrote: »

I must say, the more I see of this, the more I'm convinced that things really aren't as bad as is being depicted. Ok, the situation is still quite serious, but to put it in some sort of context-it's not quite as rosy as TEPCO are saying, but......it's not as dreadful as the US is saying either.

Obviously there has been a leak of radiation, but I don't think we're going to see a mass evacuation of Tokyo or anything of that scale. The Western media and tabloids are blowing it waaaaay out of proportion. Divide what they are saying by ten and that is probably the true representation.

I'm quite confident that the power and coolant will have been restored by this time tomorrow.

Dropping water via helicopter is usually seen as the last hurrah. Hope you are right Topper. I don't see Tokyo been evacuated tho.

uprising2

Topper Harley01 wrote: »

I must say, the more I see of this, the more I'm convinced that things really aren't as bad as is being depicted. Ok, the situation is still quite serious, but to put it in some sort of context-it's not quite as rosy as TEPCO are saying, but......it's not as dreadful as the US is saying either.

Obviously there has been a leak of radiation, but I don't think we're going to see a mass evacuation of Tokyo or anything of that scale. The Western media and tabloids are blowing it waaaaay out of proportion. Divide what they are saying by ten and that is probably the true representation.

I'm quite confident that the power and coolant will have been restored by this time tomorrow.

I think your under estimating the situation, theres no restoring anything by this time tomorrow.

hmmm

Jeez it is the Tokyo police riot squad that are being sent in. I bet they never expected to have to do something like this.

uprising2

press conf...

4 drops of water, in the afternoon the riot squad will conduct operations from the ground using their water cannon, the "police riot squad"....

We are not able to set foot on the site, more aerial water drops "possible"...

jumps to different press conf.......


waffling about the system of transport of goods.....how to donate goods etc.....dont send this or that.........waffle....avoid confusion about goods distrubution......obama and PM talked, obama offer sympathy and inititives, agree to agree ......water spraying morning portion has been completed by four bad drops,............police are going to start water spraying...........investigation under way to effectivness of water spraying, .....waffle...........circles and roundabouts,................. US orders national's to evacuate from 80km from site.........


Lot of nothing new.

3ndahalfof6

just in from work I see things are still up in the air, plus a lot of seismic activity in new spots

2 m6.6 at Vanuatu and a m5.5 at the sandwich islands

I don't know if this means anything much but it was mentioned earlier about a major EQ in the coming weeks.

3ndahalfof6

the US have asked citizens in 80-km radius to evacuate.

3ndahalfof6

REUTERS: the U.S. are sending aircraft over to Japan to help get the U.S. citizen's out,

and family members of diplomatic staff in Tokyo, Nagoya and Yokohama, about 600 people.

Chad ghostal

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

REUTERS: the U.S. are sending aircraft over to Japan to help get the U.S. citizen's out,

and family members of diplomatic staff in Tokyo, Nagoya and Yokohama, about 600 people.

it's just semantics, but they're sending over flights for citizens and staff who want to voluntarily leave. They are not getting people out because of any specific danger, but due to food/fuel shortages in Tokyo and other areas.

Overheal

still no update on their attempt to restore grid power.

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20110317p2a00m0na001000c.html

but apparently this was a known flaw with Mark 1 Reactors, it was run with, and this is the result. More modern reactors are more intelligent (one would hope) in their design, but the flaw was bad enough it resulted in 3 lead scientists working on the design to resign from GE.

http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/03/16/fukushima-reactor-flaws-were-predicted-%E2%80%93-35-years-ago/

3ndahalfof6

Chad ghostal wrote: »

it's just semantics, but they're sending over flights for citizens and staff who want to voluntarily leave. They are not getting people out because of any specific danger, but due to food/fuel shortages in Tokyo and other areas.

OK it never said that, it was just putting it down to the situation,

but I guess that is part of the situation.

Chad ghostal

Topper Harley01 wrote: »

I must say, the more I see of this, the more I'm convinced that things really aren't as bad as is being depicted. Ok, the situation is still quite serious, but to put it in some sort of context-it's not quite as rosy as TEPCO are saying, but......it's not as dreadful as the US is saying either.

Obviously there has been a leak of radiation, but I don't think we're going to see a mass evacuation of Tokyo or anything of that scale. The Western media and tabloids are blowing it waaaaay out of proportion. Divide what they are saying by ten and that is probably the true representation.

I definitely agree, dailymail mentioning 'apocalypse' and the sun with 'GET OUT NOW' as a headline :mad: A lot of the american and some Japanese newspapers are no better..

Topper Harley01 wrote: »

I'm quite confident that the power and coolant will have been restored by this time tomorrow.

it's nearly 4pm now, with barely 2 hours of sunlight left today I'm not very confident.. what makes it worse is the people at fukashima were saying they need to get everything cooled today, because the temps will get too high i.e. a meltdown being much more probable. The government spokesman was confident this morning of cooling the system, but tbh we haven't heard from them much today, since the helicopter operation started again. So hopefully soon we will get an update.

NHK have been very good at explaining everything imo and have made it clear that the cooling efforts now are only temporary measures, designed to hold off until something else can be set up i.e. the power lines to the coolant systems; but as someone else mentioned, it's hard to see how they wouldn't have been damaged by the heat/various explosions.

From all of the 'expert' papers, from what I would consider reliable sources, in the event of a full meltdown, there is still very little health risk outside the exclusion zone and that the American exclusion zone is almost unnecessarily cautious.
*this comes from several governments and specialists.

3ndahalfof6

unfortunately we will not know till it happens, good or bad I just hope it is good,

even at that I think good will still be bad, caution is the way to go I think,

being over cautious is better than being a part of the millions who realise to late or just decide to act to late, then you are caught up in a panic situation, which could be very sad.

but I hope it never comes to that.

maquiladora

Chad ghostal wrote: »

From all of the 'expert' papers, from what I would consider reliable sources, in the event of a full meltdown, there is still very little health risk outside the exclusion zone and that the American exclusion zone is almost unnecessarily cautious.
*this comes from several governments and specialists.

The American, British and Canadian governments are in agreement about the 80km zone.

Chad ghostal

maquiladora wrote: »

The American, British and Canadian governments are in agreement about the 80km zone.

Ok, I can only assume they are being cautious at this point.

3ndahalfof6

its a complete mess and if the seismic activity that has been going on for the last 5 days has anything to do with it there could be a big end to this story,

I feel this might happen, just looking at how much plate shifts are active over the last 2 weeks,

and the amount of activity, not the m1.7 or 3.5 but in certain places there has been m5+ which leads me to think what happened at Japan is the breakfast before the supper.

now don't go shootin me guys its just an observation, maybe i need to go to spec-savers

gbee

Just saw the attempts at water dropping, one of three seemed to be a reasonable attempt but it looked like it missed, the next two, look like they not only missed the reactor, but almost the the plant itself.

Four operations completed by air drop. Riot water canon in place.