Japanese earthquake / tsunami discussion

Fallschirmjager

maquiladora wrote: »

I dunno to be honest. I suppose we have the hope of the new power line restoing power to the plant.

If the SDF water cannons have higher pressure I dont know why they didn't try using them first instead of the police ones.

I think the fuel from the reactor at No. 4 is actually in the pool too because there was maintenance work going on at the time of the quake.

thats actually the real issue IMHO. cooling pools could have a lot of cool and cooling material which although bad would mean they would be easier to control. the problem is the hot rods they removed as part of the shutdown of 2 of the reactors which has sped up the evaporation. the water is also used like a control rod to stop the reactions.

keep in mind if they can manage to start pumping water again, all this will will get better very quickly. every foot of water over the rod will reduce the radiation allowing them to speed up the process. its why i think the chopper drops were used.

also its matters not about the salt water. they were beginning to deactivate some of the reactors anyway, that why some had the rods removed and they were shutdown mode before the EQ. wasnt it this week they were to go officially off line from the grid? i think i read that somewhere. those reactors after an EQ like that would need so much refurbishment to update them you would be better to just replace. again thats an opinion.

maquiladora

Japanese TV saying ECCS power to No.1 & No.2 reactors now has a hope of being restored.

*fingers crossed*

opinion guy

maquiladora wrote: »

I think the fuel from the reactor at No. 4 is actually in the pool too because there was maintenance work going on at the time of the quake.

I've seen this statement made numerous times in this thread recently, but noone has given a source. Can you back this up with a link to a credible source ?

maquiladora

opinion guy wrote: »

I've seen this statement made numerous times in this thread recently, but noone has given a source. Can you back this up with a link to a credible source ?

Yes.

Japan Earthquake Update (15 March 2011, 18:00 UTC)

The IAEA can confirm the following information about the status of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant:

Unit 4 was shut down for a routine, planned maintenance outage on 30 November 2010. After the outage, all fuel from the reactor was transferred to the spent fuel pool.

http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html

Mr Benevolent

maquiladora wrote: »

Yes.



http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/tsunamiupdate01.html

Does that mean that all the fuel is OUTSIDE the reactor with no containment?

maquiladora

NEWS ADVISORY: Radiation level rises after water shot at troubled reactor: TEPCO (20:37)

Japan Nuclear Agency: too early to say how successful water cooling operation was, 5 of 6 water cannons complete the process by 1107 GMT.

gbee

opinion guy wrote: »

I've seen this statement made numerous times in this thread recently, but noone has given a source. Can you back this up with a link to a credible source ?

It was on CNN/NHK I can confirm from watching it being reported. Allowing for getting confused with the actual reactor numbers, one of them was empty and its fuel rods were in the spent fuel containment vessel [along with its spent fuel rods]

whatstherush

Confab wrote: »

Does that mean that all the fuel is OUTSIDE the reactor with no containment?

Yep, there in a concrete pool at the top of the reactor. They rely on water for containment.

Chad ghostal

maquiladora wrote: »

NEWS ADVISORY: Radiation level rises after water shot at troubled reactor: TEPCO (20:37)

Japan Nuclear Agency: too early to say how successful water cooling operation was, 5 of 6 water cannons complete the process by 1107 GMT.

It's great to hear they've completed. Afaik they expected the levels to rise after the water (although I don't know why)..so it's maybe not so bad. Hopefully they can repeat the process throughout the night. The trucks were carrying 30tons in Total and the pool takes up to 2000tons, so hopefully they can repeat it several times tonight and it will make a difference.

Fallschirmjager

more info here and its a good read IMHO

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org


in fact some good news in there, looks like all the reactors are now shutdown (yes i know you knew that!) but also have managed to control the temperature

'All four units at the Fukushima Daini nuclear power plant have now achieved cold shutdown - where coolant water is at less than 100ºC ' now thats from the 15th -- but i had not heard that before or at least missed it.
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/IT-All_Fukushima_Daini_units_in_cold_shutdown-1503114.html

so the issue now is the cooling ponds...

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Attempts_to_refill_fuel_ponds_1703111.html

whats interesting is the radiation reading they mention...

if i had one wish is if all they agencies would stop using the word reactor to describe everything,....but thats just me...

whatstherush

Fallschirmjager wrote: »

'All four units at the Fukushima Daini nuclear power plant have now achieved cold shutdown - where coolant water is at less than 100ºC ' now thats from the 15th -- but i had not heard that before or at least missed it.
http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/IT-All_Fukushima_Daini_units_in_cold_shutdown-1503114.html

Thats the wrong powerplant, its Fukushima Daiichi where the problem is.

maquiladora

Tepco: radiation after helicopter cooling operations rose to 4000 microsieverts from 3700 microsieverts -Kyodo

gbee

Chad ghostal wrote: »

Afaik they expected the levels to rise after the water (although I don't know why)...

Simply physics, you have a resting pool of water and hot fuel rods or spent fuels rods in that pool. You then splash water into it, you will cause a lot of water to rise up and with it the radioactive elements that will now be released.

As one get more and more water on top and covering all the fuel/spent rods the incidents of this happening will decline and even more water can be poured on.

gbee

maquiladora wrote: »

Tepco: radiation after helicopter cooling operations rose to 4000 microsieverts from 3700 microsieverts -Kyodo

40mSv with 50mSv being the lowest does for any statistical risk of cancer

Ickle Magoo

Fallschirmjager wrote: »

'All four units at the Fukushima Daini nuclear power plant have now achieved cold shutdown - where coolant water is at less than 100ºC ' now thats from the 15th -- but i had not heard that before or at least missed it

That's the plant next door...

http://www.insc.anl.gov/pwrmaps/map/japan.png

Fallschirmjager

whatstherush wrote: »

Thats the wrong powerplant, its Fukushima Daiichi where the problem is.

good spot...feck missed that...

maquiladora

Sounds like they got the diesel generators working again at No.5 and No.6 if the translation I'm listening to was right.

Also...

NEWS ADVISORY: SDF to drop water by choppers, trucks again Fri.: ministry (20:58)

Fallschirmjager

Thursday, March 17, 2011 20:06 +0900 (JST) SDF vehicles start spraying water on reactor

daelight

Some people I know are leaving Tokyo. Bit over-reaction, but only time will tell. Energy needs to be conserved so many shops closing early to conserve power. Freezing in Northern Japan, the death toll rises further. People are donating alot of goods and Money in Japan. They are getting supplies to people in the affected areas.

Solair

It still looks rather hopeless. I mean, those water drops looked like someone trying to put out a bonfire with a water pistol and a few cups of water dumped on top.

Fallschirmjager

Solair wrote: »

It still looks rather hopeless. I mean, those water drops looked like someone trying to put out a bonfire with a water pistol and a few cups of water dumped on top.

think there are 7 tons of water per drop...so it pretty substantial...and it depends whats in there already...it seems the choppers said they had water still in the ponds when they circled overhead. and thats good news to be honest

Solair

I sincerely hope it has some effect!

Fallschirmjager

well i guess a small prediction is in order...if they manage to sustain the water spraying

the radiation count will go up in the next hours before it goes down

for exactly the reason gbee mentioned earlier...and when you cover something hot you get steam which will bring short term radiation with it.

so if you hear spikes in radiation in the coming hours dont be surprised...

Run_to_da_hills

maquiladora wrote: »

Tepco: radiation after helicopter cooling operations rose to 4000 microsieverts from 3700 microsieverts -Kyodo

Fanning from the Chinook twin prop blades wouldn't help.

Cathaoirleach

Another earthquake just now, shaking the NHK studio
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv

opinion guy

Ok in addition to learning the lessons of not building reactors in earthquake faults and if you do not having your diesel engines on the ground floor, I think we can add the following to lessons to be learned from this incident:

• Don't store your live fuel rods in the spent fuel rod pool when doing maintenance
• Don't build your nuclear plants so close together

Seems to me if there were more space between the reactors it would be easier to deal with each individual one when problems arise as you would not be hampered by radiation from the reactor next door. Also seems to me they need "spare" storage pools for putting the live fuel rods in when the reactor is undergoing maintenance.

Topper Harley01

According to Kyodo News TEPCO claims that helicopter drops were effective at cooling the spent fuel pool and that operations will be commenced tomorrow morning.

maquiladora

Quake was off Japan's east.. preliminary 6.0 magnitude.

No Tsunami warnings.

daelight

M5.8 , Chiba. 3 in Tokyo....

That is same area last 3 nights in a row, around the same time. Lastest about a minute.

maquiladora

White smoke or steam seen at Fukushima no.2 reactor - Tokyo elec power

Japan nuclear agency: pool for cooling spent nuclear fuel at no.4 plant remains 'serious concern'