Japanese earthquake / tsunami discussion

gbee

opinion guy wrote: »

Seems to me if there were more space between the reactors

This has been a criticism of this design. It's a small footprint compact facility that is more susceptible to serious damage if a coolant problem occurs.

However, the design has proven to be reliable and robust and this particular facility has withstood tsunami and earthquakes previously.

Ironically, if they had restarted the reactors immediately again they'd have been able to power themselves and avoid all the problems that followed.

But one has just a few hours and the important derisions were not made before time ran out. To be fair it took too much time to realise the extent of the damage and I'm sure if all the facts had been available immediately, a different course of action might have been followed.

Backup systems worked but the backup system support failed [like diesel tanks washed away, no battery charging facilities].

maquiladora

TEPCO says today "limit" for attempt to cool reactor - NHK analyst baffled by what that means : asoga

Another aftershock, 5.6.

whatstherush

gbee wrote: »

However, the design has proven to be reliable and robust and this particular facility has withstood tsunami and earthquakes previously.

But the unanswered question of the whole nuclear industry, of what to do with nuclear waste looks like being the major problem at this site, not reactor design.

gbee wrote: »

Ironically, if they had restarted the reactors immediately again they'd have been able to power themselves and avoid all the problems that followed.

This is debatable, Steam turbines shaken by a magnitude 9.0 earth quake, then hit by tsunami, I wouldn't bet on it.

maquiladora

Japan gov't: Water shots tonight had no immediate effect on rad levels, more repair work on electrical lines into Fukushima nuke plant Fri. - VOA

Turtwig

opinion guy wrote: »

Ok in addition to learning the lessons of not building reactors in earthquake faults and if you do not having your diesel engines on the ground floor, I think we can add the following to lessons to be learned from this incident:

• Don't store your live fuel rods in the spent fuel rod pool when doing maintenance
• Don't build your nuclear plants so close together

Seems to me if there were more space between the reactors it would be easier to deal with each individual one when problems arise as you would not be hampered by radiation from the reactor next door. Also seems to me they need "spare" storage pools for putting the live fuel rods in when the reactor is undergoing maintenance.

Most modernly built reactors nowadays house the spent fuels in a separate containment building built adjacent to the reactor one.
Yes it does seem silly that one blast or radioactive substance leake in one can also damage or hamper repairs on another. Most modernly built reactors are not addressing that problem.:(

Chad ghostal

#1256: TepcoDisaster tweets: "Water shot from trucks effective in cooling fuel pool as steam rose at #Fukushima Daiichi No.1 Nuclear power plant."

Doesn't say how effective, but hopefully it's something that they can build on tomorrow..

maquiladora

Chad ghostal wrote: »

#1256: TepcoDisaster tweets: "Water shot from trucks effective in cooling fuel pool as steam rose at #Fukushima Daiichi No.1 Nuclear power plant."

Doesn't say how effective, but hopefully it's something that they can build on tomorrow..

Japanese govt a little later sounded less optimistic than TEPCO :

NEWS ADVISORY: Water shots had no immediate effect on radiation levels: agency (22:01) - Kyodo

They will be starting again at it with daylight over there, hopefully will have good results.

Chad ghostal

maquiladora wrote: »

Japanese govt a little later sounded less optimistic than TEPCO :

NEWS ADVISORY: Water shots had no immediate effect on radiation levels: agency (22:01) - Kyodo

They will be starting again at it with daylight over there, hopefully will have good results.

I'm just catching up, but they're from two different sources, so probably just two different slants on the same news, i.e. not much progress, a little cooler, but not getting less deadly. Seriously hope this is something they can build on.

Either way, I give up for the night. Thanks for all the maquiladora, very handy to not have to run around to various sources while working..

Rob A. Bank

BBC have just put up a gallery of dramatic and poignant images from the last week

(some images of dead bodies)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12770263

maquiladora

[9:38 a.m. ET Thursday, 10:38 p.m. Thursday in Tokyo] High levels of radiation have been detected 30 kilometers (18.6 miles) from the damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, broadcaster NHK reports, citing Japan's Science Ministry. Exposure to those levels of radiation for six hours would be equivalent to the safe level of what a person can absorb in a year, according to the report.


[8:49 a.m. ET Thursday, 9:49 p.m. Thursday in Tokyo] Singapore on Thursday joined the list of nations advising its citizens to leave areas near the damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, Kyodo News service reported. Singapore's Foreign Ministry advised its citizens to evacuate areas within 100 kilometers (62 miles) of the nuclear plant. The United States, Australia and South Korea have advised citizens to move from areas within 80 kilometers (50 miles) of the plant.

maquiladora

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

BBC have just put up a gallery of dramatic and poignant images from the last week

(some images of dead bodies)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12770263

I read somewhere this morning, the Japanese govt was requesting Western news media not to show images of dead bodies out of respect.

Overheal

i dont need to see dead bodies, its disaster enough.

ScumLord

maquiladora wrote: »

Quake was off Japan's east.. preliminary 6.0 magnitude.

No Tsunami warnings.

It'll probably still be reported as the biggest aftershock since the main earthquake as RTE have been saying about every aftershock so far. It's like they think I haven't been paying attention to any of the reports they've done so far.

Turtwig

ScumLord wrote: »

It'll probably still be reported as the biggest aftershock since the main earthquake as RTE have been saying about every aftershock so far. It's like they think I haven't been paying attention to any of the reports they've done so far.

Nah, mate to save time and number checking they'll just go :

"One of the biggest so far."
That covers them for most corners.

Overheal

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=disaster%20porn

"This is just horrible. I can't even bear to look." Said Geraldo Rivera as he rewound the disaster porn tape of the World Trade Center collapsing for the 10,000th time that day

Fallschirmjager

christ i hope they dont sent geraldo there...he is the friggen angel of death...the freaking plague annie of modern journalism...

honestly i have kept fairly positive about this up till now that it will be solved, but all bets ore of if geraldo appears...

Rob A. Bank

A forecast by the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty Organization shows how weather patterns this week might disperse radiation from a continuous source in Fukushima, Japan.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/03/16/science/plume-graphic.html?ref=science

Raskolnikov

maquiladora wrote: »

[9:38 a.m. ET Thursday, 10:38 p.m. Thursday in Tokyo] High levels of radiation have been detected 30 kilometers (18.6 miles) from the damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, broadcaster NHK reports, citing Japan's Science Ministry. Exposure to those levels of radiation for six hours would be equivalent to the safe level of what a person can absorb in a year, according to the report.

My God :eek: If the radiation levels are this bad, imagine what they must be like for the 50 people still working in near the reactors. Urgh.

hmmm

Video of the plant from a helicopter on Mar 16
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBXqiw6EJUk

Topper Harley01

An interesting blog from one of the Fukushima workers. I must say I am greatly impressed by their determination and dedication to resolving the problems.

http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/Asia/Story/STIStory_646210.html

Turtwig

hmmm wrote: »

Video of the plant from a helicopter on Mar 16
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBXqiw6EJUk

Mar 16? That was yesterday?? Jesus fucking christ unless that's from a military helicopter with shielding they're extremely lucky they didn't die! One of the biggest dangers to helicopters flying over areas of ionising radiation is that the rotor blade will "flush" up radioactive particles in high concentrations into its turbine engine. This has the potential to fry the electronics inside the turbine and kill the engine. If it's a news crew they're really lucky they're didn't record their own death.

maquiladora

Status of quake-stricken reactors at Fukushima nuclear power plants

TOKYO, March 17, Kyodo

Fukushima No. 1 plant

-- Reactor No. 1 - Operation suspended after quake, cooling failure, partial melting of core, vapor vented, building housing reactor damaged Saturday by hydrogen explosion, seawater being pumped in.

-- Reactor No. 2 - Operation suspended after quake, cooling failure, seawater being pumped in, fuel rods fully exposed temporarily, vapor vented, building housing reactor damaged Monday by blast at reactor No. 3, damage to containment vessel feared, potential meltdown feared.

-- Reactor No. 3 - Operation suspended after quake, cooling failure, partial melting of core feared, vapor vented, seawater being pumped in, building housing reactor damaged Monday by hydrogen explosion, high-level radiation measured nearby on Tuesday, plume of smoke observed Wednesday and presumed to have come from spent-fuel storage pool, severe damage to containment vessel unlikely, seawater dumped over pool by helicopter on Thursday, water sprayed at it from ground.

-- Reactor No. 4 - Under maintenance when quake struck, fire Tuesday possibly caused by hydrogen explosion at pool holding spent fuel rods, abnormal temperature rise in spent-fuel storage pool, fire observed Wednesday at building housing reactor, pool water level feared receding, renewed nuclear chain reaction feared.

-- Reactors No. 5, 6 - Under maintenance when quake struck, water temperatures in spent-fuel storage pools increased to about 64 C on Thursday.

-- Spent-fuel storage pools at all reactors -- Cooling functions lost, water temperatures or levels unobservable at reactors No. 1 to 4.

Fukushima No. 2 plant

-- Reactors No. 1, 2, 4 - Operation suspended after quake, cooling failure, then cold shutdown.

-- Reactor No. 3 - Operation suspended after quake, cold shutdown.

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/79046.html

Rob A. Bank

hmmm wrote: »

Video of the plant from a helicopter on Mar 16
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBXqiw6EJUk

Horriffic !

The amount of damage does not fill me with optimism that returning electrical power will result in the cooling system working, except maybe in reactor 2.

opinion guy

From the BBC:

Professor Gerry Thomas, the director of the Chernobyl tissue bank from Imperial College London, says too much emphasis is being put on the nuclear issue. "I think we're getting an accurate picture as far as the radiological alarm is concerned. What concerns me most is that we're actually focusing on the wrong disaster. The real disaster is the tsunami and the number of people who've lost their lives that way. We're focusing on a disaster that isn't a disaster."

This is an expert on what the medical fallout of all this can be saying this.
Chickens Littles please listen!!!

maquiladora

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

Horriffic !

The amount of damage does not fill me with optimism that returning electrical power will result in the cooling system working, except maybe in reactor 2.

From what I've heard they are attempting to restore some power to No.1 and No.2 and they are hoping to get that going tomorrow but it depends on radiation levels. Haven't heard anything about restoring power to No.3 or No.4.

Brenireland

Amazing to see this thread is still on the go,The Tsunami has hit,now its the relief efforts which will take centre stage & lets hope Japan does indeed come back strong after this catastrophe.

It seems the Nuclear situation is the only leg left for this thread to stand on,lets hope they can control the Reactors however/whatever way possible.

Donal Og O Baelach

Brenireland wrote: »

Amazing to see this thread is still on the go,The Tsunami has hit,now its the relief efforts which will take centre stage & lets hope Japan does indeed come back strong after this catastrophe.

It seems the Nuclear situation is the only leg left for this thread to stand on,lets hope they can control the Reactors however/whatever way possible.

Coming close to 4000 posts now (and all from the same 10 people)

Rob A. Bank

opinion guy wrote: »

From the BBC:


This is an expert on what the medical fallout of all this can be saying this.
Chickens Littles please listen!!!

Any chance he might be more accurate than yesterday's british 'expert' who said there was no reason to leave Tokyo ?

And I am getting really fed up of the nuclear choirboys namecalling those who are simply trying to find the truth.

Fallschirmjager

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

Horriffic !

The amount of damage does not fill me with optimism that returning electrical power will result in the cooling system working, except maybe in reactor 2.

to be fair Rob, its not like you have just been converted by these images....

Rob A. Bank

Fallschirmjager wrote: »

to be fair Rob, its not like you have just been converted by these images....

What do you mean ?