Japanese earthquake / tsunami discussion

TJJP

Thrill wrote: »

Webcam showing the terrible weather near Yamagata - 50km Sendai

http://camera.logicbase.jp:5000/CgiStart?page=Single&Language=1

Good link, thanks. To be fair Yamagata-shi is a good way more than 50km from Fukushima though and is the far side of Mounts Fubo and Daito (among others). Fukushima rarely got that level of snow in my experience. The snow normally moves in from the west coast and dumps on Yamagata and Yonezawa cities. The snow showing on that link isn't that unusual, but it is heavy for March.

The Fukushima coast does seem to be getting it bad weather wise, but it won't be up to Yamagata levels.

Pic of the road through the Mountains near Yamagata.

gbee

Some of the fear is down to the official media from Japan over their mix up with

µ = micro as in µSv microsievert
m = milli as un mSv millisievert

I've seen and heard NHK-TV saying that instantly lethal doses of radiation had been released when in fact the doses were very, very, very very much LESS.

They did not say this like I've just put it, they said because they took a microsievert reading and reported it in either sieverts or millisiervets making the dose tens of thousands the level of reality.

But any hack looking for sensation might see or hear only the huge figure and think, Armageddon.

opinion guy

BBC reporting the engineers have a cable hooked up to reactor2:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12779512
It seems they've connected to the building but not quite got everything going yet. Still....hopefully its progress!

Malty_T wrote: »

Time lapse animation of the quake and all the subsequent aftershocks with their geographic locations.

Wow thats nuts - the crust has just completely shattered in that whole area. Hopefully that takes the pressure out of it for a long time to come!

Mister men

Does'nt look good does it.:( God i'd hate to be in Japan now.

opinion guy

Mister men wrote: »

Does'nt look good does it.:( God i'd hate to be in Japan now.

????? Why do you say that ? they are a step closer to getting the cooling system up and running

paconnors

surely if it snows at the plant it will help cool the reactors

Stheno

The BBC reports on food shortages are horrid

Whatever happens in Fukushima, the logistics need to be fixed to get food and water to affected areas.

Following the thread the past few days, I feel more hope now that they may avert a disaster.

God love the workers in that plant though.

Jimmy Garlic

opinion guy wrote: »

????? Why do you say that ? they are a step closer to getting the cooling system up and running

Yeah, and the easter bunny will be here soon. The damage is done now, there is no way that all the cooling infrastructure in those reactors is still intact.

gbee

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

The damage is done now, there is no way that all the cooling infrastructure in those reactors is still intact.

Actually it is, and it has been working on an off. The essential problem was keeping the system working as already explained in this thread.

Run_to_da_hills

Stheno wrote: »

The BBC reports on food shortages are horrid

Whatever happens in Fukushima, the logistics need to be fixed to get food and water to affected areas.

Following the thread the past few days, I feel more hope now that they may avert a disaster.

God love the workers in that plant though.

It must be horrid for those caught within the 30km zone, no food or help.

Thrill

Off Topic but I thought it worth mentioning
UN council passes air strikes resolution


Against Libya

Topper Harley01

Breaking news: Power restored to some parts of the plant, including reactor 2.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20044391-264.html

Rob A. Bank

"The electric utility said that a total of 11,195 spent fuel rod assemblies were stored at the site.

That is in addition to 400 fuel assemblies that had been in active service in reactor No. 1 and 548 in each of reactors No. 2 and 3.

In other words, the storage pools hold more than seven times as much radioactive material as the reactor cores."

http://thenewadmin.com/top-stories/danger-of-spent-fuel-outweighs-reactor-threat/

gbee

Aid is slow arriving, due to the total destruction of virtually everything, the sad stories being reported are deaths of people who survived the earthquake, the tsunami, evacuation from the power plant,or all three events, only to be dying now from the cold and hunger.

12 elderly from one one hospital died in the last day in an evacuation centre that had run out of oil for the heater.

300 tankers a day are ordered to supply the north to get kerosene, petrol and diesel so that relief trucks, some loaded with essentials and perishables, going again as they lie idle due to lack of fuel.

Topper Harley01

Breaking news: Diesel generators restored to unit 6, which is also supplying unit 5. Hopefully this will eliminate any doubts as to the stability of 5 and 6.

http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/files/en20110318-1.pdf

Looks like the overnight work is really getting places now.

Thrill

"Almost a quarter of Japan's population are 65 or over, and hypothermia, dehydration and respiratory diseases are taking hold among the elderly in shelters, many of whom lost their medication when the wave struck, according to Eric Ouannes, general director of Doctors Without Borders' Japan affiliate."

The Guardian.

opinion guy

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

"The electric utility said that a total of 11,195 spent fuel rod assemblies were stored at the site.

That is in addition to 400 fuel assemblies that had been in active service in reactor No. 1 and 548 in each of reactors No. 2 and 3.

In other words, the storage pools hold more than seven times as much radioactive material as the reactor cores."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/18/world/asia/18spent.html?pagewanted=1&ref=world

Did you even read your own link ?

NYTimes wrote:

The electric utility said that a total of 11,195 spent fuel rod assemblies were stored at the site. That is about four times as much radioactive material as in the reactor cores combined.

or are you deliberately exaggerating now ?

Fallschirmjager

gbee wrote: »

Aid is slow arriving, due to the total destruction of virtually everything, the sad stories being reported are deaths of people who survived the earthquake, the tsunami, evacuation from the power or all three events plant only to be dying now from the cold and hunger.

12 elderly from one one hospital died in the last day in an evacuation centre that had run out of oil for the heater.

300 tankers a day are ordered to supply the north to get kerosene, petrol and diesel so that relief trucks, some loaded with essentials and perishables, going again as they lie idle due to lack of fuel.

yep i read that, awful awful story. it looks like some are now so shattered they are giving up. saw on sky there is some new video of guys getting into a high rise seconds before a river roared by. they were trying to rescue this guy holding his 2 kids in his arms sitting on top of a car, another guy in a tree another woman standing on a roof...jesus really make you appreciate where we are -- the only scary fuking thing we have in ireland is wasps....

foxinsox

Just wanted to say thanks to the regular posters in here for keeping me up to date.

I wouldn't be able to find such a wide range of links by myself so have found this thread great for keeping me up to date withwhat is going on. Please keep posting your updates.

Hopefully things in Japan get better soon.

Atavan-Halen

foxinsox wrote: »

Just wanted to day thanks to the regular posters in here for keeping me up to date.

I wouldn't be able to find such a wide range of links by myself so have found this thread graet for keeping me up to date woth what is going on. Please keep posting your updates.

Hopefully things in Japan get better soon.

I hope so too! Just been reading this thread since the earthquake started and soaking in the info.

andrew

atavan-halen wrote: »

I hope so too! Just been reading this thread since the earthquake started and soaking in the info.

...Interesting choice of word.

AlteredMind

atavan-halen wrote: »

I hope so too! Just been reading this thread since the earthquake started and soaking in the info.

Me as well.

Thank you all for keeping it so well updated - it's like having monitors on all the news sites and stations.

Those poor people in Japan. It's truly terrifying.

Atavan-Halen

andrew wrote: »

...Interesting choice of word.

Ah I didn't mean it like that. Just an automatic choice of words I guess

Fallschirmjager

for the guys n girls working in the plant since last friday flat out in an environment with the entire worlds focus on them...i would just love for them to connect that cable, flick a switch and hear the glorious sound of water rushing through the entire system. unlikely yes...but fuk me if any group deserve a break -- its them.

hell, while we are at it maybe we could ask ghadaffi to give a speech at the plant, even freaking radiation would give up on the onslaught of that. solve 2 issues at once...

some things to ponder before you head off to sleep..

http://www.realclearscience.com/articles/2011/03/17/putting_chernobyl_in_perspective_106233.html

Hotblack Desiato

Malty_T wrote: »

One of the biggest dangers to helicopters flying over areas of ionising radiation is that the rotor blade will "flush" up radioactive particles in high concentrations into its turbine engine. This has the potential to fry the electronics inside the turbine and kill the engine. If it's a news crew they're really lucky they're didn't record their own death.

No, no it doesn't. You'll find the electronics are a lot more durable than the humans flying them. I did a project on the effects of radiation on semiconductors.

Alpha and beta can't penetrate chip packaging. Gamma mostly just goes straight through (it helps that silicon is such a light element.) Eventually you get atoms knocked out of the crystal lattice and the performance of the device gradually degrades but that's a slow process even under very high dose levels.

Dynamic RAMs are the most vulnerable to bit-flipping from the deposition of charge from gamma or cosmic rays (the latter in the upper atmosphere or in space, the atmosphere shields us) but simple error checking techniques can greatly mitigate this. Spacecraft use special radiation hardened chips but they face a very hostile environment up there - energetic cosmic rays and particles that don't penetrate air to any significant distance. Not what would be encountered in this reactor scenario. Also satellites have to survive in the space environment for several years and are clocking up a radiation dose all that time.

Incidentally the radiation dose that aircraft experience at 40,000ft is significantly higher than on the ground, and they are totally dependent on electronics these days - and will experience this irradiation every time they get up to altitude (cosmic rays.) Concorde at 60,000ft experienced about twice as much, but was up there for less than half as long per flight due to going more than twice as fast it did carry a radiation meter in case of solar flare activity but that was to protect the passengers and crew by getting down to a lower altitude if a solar flare occurred.

Thrill

Japan's self-defence force discovered 128 elderly people abandoned by medical staff at a hospital six miles from the stricken Fukushima nuclear plant. :mad: Most of them were comatose and 14 died shortly afterwards.

Eleven others were reported dead at a retirement home in Kesennuma because of freezing temperatures, six days after 47 of their fellow residents were killed in the tsunami. The surviving residents of the retirement home in Kesennuma were described by its owner, Morimitsu Inawashida, as "alone and under high stress". He said fuel for their kerosene heaters was running out.

Hotblack Desiato

opinion guy wrote: »

Many of the people post have some personal links to the Japan. I don't currently but I have visited it and hope to visit again. Its an amazing country.

It certainly is and I sincerely hope to visit it some day. Would have loved to on the way to Australia a few years back but didn't realise how far north it is, it's a long way from a Hong Kong or Singapore stopover and not on the way to Australia at all.

Some are on west coast US and may be affected by any potential fallout.

That is not possible even in the worst case scenario envisaged.

The nuclear issue is the current focus but with some luck that will pass.

Unfortunately the 'sexy' nuclear scare story is diverting attention away from the tens of thousands (I expect ultimately over 100,000 in total, I'm afraid) killed by the tsunami and the aftermath of cold, hunger and disease - even given that Japan is one of the most developed economies in the world the scale of disruption and destruction is quite severe. Be thankful if you are in a part of the world where you do not have to worry about such things.

Hotblack Desiato

andrew wrote: »

I don't think the fear now is a meltdown in any of the reactors, it's more the possibility that the fuel in the spent fuel tank melts or comes together in some other way such that it becomes critical. That'd be the equivalent of nuclear boy taking a pretty big poo.

It's not possible that the fuel ponds go critical. The fuel isn't enriched enough and is not in close enough proximity to go critical even if it totally melts down. FFS, even inside the reactor it can't sustain a chain reaction without the moderator - WATER. No water - no reaction.

Hotblack Desiato

Topper Harley01 wrote: »

As a side note, I wonder if the accident will increase public support for military action against Iran and North Korea's nuclear weapons programme? The public previously had a laissez faire attitude towards the two countries, perhaps now they might realise that things could be 1000 times worse if the nuclear programmes of 2 hostile nations are allowed to go unchecked.

You'd have to start by explaining what on earth a civil nuclear programme in Japan has to do with weapons programmes in rogue states. (Clue - nothing whatsoever.)

Edit: sorry for the snarky tone, but the whole 'nuclear power' = 'nuclear weapons' thing is just so Carnsore Point 1978.

geetar

ninja900 wrote: »

Unfortunately the 'sexy' nuclear scare story is diverting attention away from the tens of thousands (I expect ultimately over 100,000 in total, I'm afraid) killed by the tsunami and the aftermath of cold, hunger and disease

thats an over exageration.

the current estimates (12000ish) are well under the probable amount.

but realisticly, its probably between 20,000 and 30,000, still an awful amount of people, but not 100,000 by a long shot