Japanese earthquake / tsunami discussion

Rob A. Bank

http://allthingsnuclear.org/post/3940804083/possible-cause-of-reactor-building-explosions

This link adresses the riddle of how a significant amount of hydrogen escaped from the primary containment into the reactor building, causing the initial explosions in mulitple reactors.

Mech1

how come Japan has raised the level from 4 to 5 on a danger level ranging from 1 to 7 if everything is under control?
source = RTE news

Stheno

Mech1 wrote: »

how come Japan has raised the level from 4 to 5 on a danger level ranging from 1 to 7 if everything is under control?
source = RTE news

reflection on the seriousness of the incident perhaps?

It needs to be classified properly.

Run_to_da_hills

Mech1 wrote: »

how come Japan has raised the level from 4 to 5 on a danger level ranging from 1 to 7 if everything is under control?
source = RTE news

they have been told to.

It doesn't take much for people to google some of the scientific websites to access the seriousness of the situation,

Fallschirmjager

just heard a god awful story....prepare thyself...

my wife said swedish newspapers have reported there are schools with kids from different villages who are still waiting for parents who have not arrived to collect them

jesus how horrific is that..


i guess its what you were saying...whole families are gone...

Fallschirmjager

yoganmahew wrote: »

That's pretty severe... from the article, though:

Once in a thousand years, eh? :rolleyes:

i think the once in a thousand years referred to the earthquake

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/world/10_largest_world.php

the above is only since 1900...but there was a 9.5 in chile...dont even want to think what that was like...

vibe666

peasant wrote: »

What we shouldn't do however is use the victims of the quake and the tsunami as leverage to win points in the discussion ..that's just wrong

this has got fcuk all to do with 'winning points'. seriously, WTF is wrong with you?

i'd be fcuking ecstatic if this thread contained 3500+ posts about the ACTUAL important issues in japan and maybe a maximum of 500 posts about the status of fukushima, but some people just can't quit with the scaremongering BS and then accuse people of 'point winning' for trying to draw the attention to the real problems, that's what's REALLY wrong with this thread so just stop it right now.

there's absolutely no excuse for it at this stage in the course of events since last friday. it's all bullsh1t and if you can click on a few links and read what's right in front of you, like the vast majority of people posting in and reading this thread you can't help but know that its bullsh1t at this stage so what the hell are you even doing still milking every last drop for all its worth?

i'm baffled beyond belief at how you lot can still keep going with it after everything that has happened. fukushima is an insignificant blip in all of this and will never be anything more but you just can't let it go.

seriously, why aren't you discussing the real problems in japan instead of fixating on fukushima?

in fact, why don't we do that?

why don't we spend the next 24 hours discussing everything going on in japan right now except fukushima and see what we learn? it's still going to be there for you tomorrow, just slightly more stable than it is today, but we might have drawn a lot more focus on the real issues instead.

Fallschirmjager

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

http://allthingsnuclear.org/post/3940804083/possible-cause-of-reactor-building-explosions

This link adresses the riddle of how a significant amount of hydrogen escaped from the primary containment into the reactor building, causing the initial explosions in mulitple reactors.

thats a good find...there would be tons of zirconium as the cladding and it may also be used in the fuel assemblies (perhaps someone can confirm that here who knows?) so it might well explain the hydrogen explosions. of course super heated water could also do it or be involved at a guess.

its still inside a contaiment structures and they are pumping water into those if i remember correctly...so honestly to me the last real issues now is the cooling pools that have no power. if they can fix or even half fix that to reduce the local radiation allowing increasing activity and therefore accelerating the fix ...the risks will then drop dramatically....again thats just my opinion

Fallschirmjager

in a attempt to lift the mood a little

i still think of the 4 month old who survived days

http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2011/03/15/article-1300183251374-0B2A559000000578-597695_466x310.jpg

i saw the photo when they returned the baby to the father. i am betting for the longest while, we can all agree he was the happiest man on planet earth...

but if you really want to see how you can sidestep a tsunami wave check out the guy who just steps inside before it sweeps by

but it still scares the bejesus out of me....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC0OFT8WWHk

and this...for all ye dog lovers...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3TM9GL2iLI

andyseadog

vibe666 wrote: »

this has got fcuk all to do with 'winning points'. seriously, WTF is wrong with you?

i'd be fcuking ecstatic if this thread contained 3500+ posts about the ACTUAL important issues in japan and maybe a maximum of 500 posts about the status of fukushima, but some people just can't quit with the scaremongering BS and then accuse people of 'point winning' for trying to draw the attention to the real problems, that's what's REALLY wrong with this thread so just stop it right now.

there's absolutely no excuse for it at this stage in the course of events since last friday. it's all bullsh1t and if you can click on a few links and read what's right in front of you, like the vast majority of people posting in and reading this thread you can't help but know that its bullsh1t at this stage so what the hell are you even doing still milking every last drop for all its worth?

i'm baffled beyond belief at how you lot can still keep going with it after everything that has happened. fukushima is an insignificant blip in all of this and will never be anything more but you just can't let it go.

seriously, why aren't you discussing the real problems in japan instead of fixating on fukushima?

in fact, why don't we do that?

why don't we spend the next 24 hours discussing everything going on in japan right now except fukushima and see what we learn? it's still going to be there for you tomorrow, just slightly more stable than it is today, but we might have drawn a lot more focus on the real issues instead.

i'd like to start off by saying i have family over there, safe and sound for the immediate future thank God.

its all well and good going on the little spiel you just did, but do you really think you can alter the course of this thread?

i know this is a terrible awful thing to say, but unfortunately the poor people who died in Japan as a result of this are dead, it is tremendously unfortunate, but nobody really wants to spend time dwelling on that fact or talking about it.

it seems Japan also has rescue shelters very well sorted out and organised for the survivors of the tsunami, they have opened lots of public buildings, done their best to make them as comfortable as possible, they have stated they need food/ water/ blankets etc, and it looks like the rest of the world is bending over backwards to help them and get aid on the scene.

they have assembled message boards etc. to try and re-unite misplaced families.

for those unfortunates still missing, again there are droves of search parties with search dogs and the latest equipment crawling through rubble doing their best to find everybody they can, again it looks like they are reasonably on top of this and numerous other countries have sent search teams to contribute to the efforts.

the only real thing that still appears to be out of hand, and (somewhat) out of control that people are powerless to get a handle on is Fukushima Daiichi, which is why it is a source of such concern/ speculation/ conversation.

im not saying the general state of affairs in Japan isin't a horrific disaster, i'm not saying my heart doesn't go out to every single soul caught up in it.

but as regards the human aspect of the disaster, groups from around the world are well accustomed to what to do in the case of earthquakes and tsunamis and are doing their level best to put their plans into place and save every life possible.

whereas the nuclear situation is relatively new territory for everybody involved, there have been far more earthquakes and tsunamis around the world than nuclear crisis, so naturally its going to be a headline grabber/ conversation starter, it has people in Japan and abroad scared and thats why this thread seems to have 'naturally' focused on it.

Fair play to the Japanese, they are doing a fine job so far in their recovery efforts, and i wish them the best of luck with continuing to do so.

vibe666

when you say "over there" are you talking about in the immediate area of the earthquakes & tsunami or just "in japan"?

sorry to sound callous, but if they're in japan several hundred miles away from the main problems then its not really relevant if they are not in any danger.

i have friends in japan too, as i'm sure a lot of people will have to some degree but since they aren't in any danger, it wasn't worth mentioning as they are safe and well and out of harms way.

as for all the rescue shelters being "very well sorted out", i'm pretty sure that the reports of some of them having no access to food, heat, blankets or medical supplies and having survivors die due directly to a lack of those supplies in freezing temperatures is hardly the rosy picture you're trying to paint.

this thread should be here to educate people to what is actually going on in japan, the day to day struggles of the people there, how they've been affected and what (if anything) people can do to help.

unfortunately, i think the only thing people here can really do to help them is to make sure the real stories get out and encourage everyone around them to keep a level head and educate the people they know who might not have access to the information here and are relying (god forbid) the mainstream news to tell them the truth.

Fallschirmjager

6.1 earth quake south of plant...according to sky

3ndahalfof6

Fallschirmjager wrote: »

6.1 earth quake south of plant...according to sky

http://quakes.globalincidentmap.com/

jamesbrond

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/asia-pacific/explosion-could-send-contamination-to-ireland-2585448.html

Can somebody add that idiot who wrote the story in the Irish Indo to this hall of shame please.

http://jpquake.wikispaces.com/Journalist+Wall+of+Shame

Hotblack Desiato

jamesbrond wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/asia-pacific/explosion-could-send-contamination-to-ireland-2585448.html

Can somebody add that idiot who wrote the story in the Irish Indo to this hall of shame please.

http://jpquake.wikispaces.com/Journalist+Wall+of+Shame

Typical shallow tabloid gutter journalism. I can imagine how the interview went...

"So, as an expert, can you give me categorical 100% assurance that so-and-so is completely impossible?"

"Well we can't absolutely rule it out but it is extremely unlikely even in the worst case scenario we can envisage.."

"..So you can't rule it out."

"Well... I suppose if X, Y AND Z were to happen as well, then maybe, but this would be almost impossible..."

Next day's headline: IRELAND IN DANGER OF IMMINENT DOOM, SAYS EXPERT

:rolleyes:

There is no way that this plant can send fallout 30,000ft into the atmosphere, and even if it did it would be extremely diluted because we are practically on the other side of the world from Japan and the prevailing winds go the longer way around! There is a big difference (several orders of magnitude) between radation that is detectable and radiation that requires some action e.g. holding certain foods from back from the market for a while - and even then the radiation levels at which action is required are very conservative.

Hotblack Desiato

To emphasise just how stupid that Indo piece is - even if Japan had H-bombs, they could let a few off and it would have no effect on us.

Massive US H-bomb testing took place in the middle of the Pacific in the 50s and 60s (as well as Soviet, Chinese and British tests) and we didn't start dropping dead in the street then (although fallout from those tests is still detectable worldwide today - radiation can be detected in very small amounts even much smaller than the 'banana equivalent dose' thing which even the biggest scaremonger in the world would have to accept poses no risk to human health.

Run_to_da_hills

Hoax about guy being trapped in rubble for several days.

Japanese news agency Kyodo News withdrew a startling story today of a young man pulled alive from the rubble.

Doubts have been raised about the story, which has been broadcast widely by international media.

Kyodo said the man in fact had been to an evacuation centre already and returned to his ruined home when he was discovered by rescue workers.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0319/japan.html

Rob A. Bank

jamesbrond wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/asia-pacific/explosion-could-send-contamination-to-ireland-2585448.html

Can somebody add that idiot who wrote the story in the Irish Indo to this hall of shame please.

Can you point out any factually incorrect statement in the article ?

yoganmahew

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

Can you point out any factually incorrect statement in the article ?

"if fears of a massive explosion are realised, fallout could reach us"
Not sure there are any fears of a massive explosion.

""If there was an explosion of up to 30,000 feet, that (material) would be carried (across the world)," he said."
Again, explosion? AFAIK, it was continuous, long duration and very hot fires at Chernobyl that caused the plume from there to reach the heights it did.

It is, admittedly, difficult to point out incorrect facts in an article that appears to only contain tangential facts (weather carries stuff, Scottish sheep don't need to be tested...).

Rob A. Bank

1211: The UN nuclear watchdog the IAEA says Japan has ordered a halt to all sales of food products from Fukushima prefecture, Reuters reports. It comes after the chief cabinet secretary Yukio Edano said radiation levels in milk and spinach from the region of Fukushima nuclear plant exceeded safety standards - though the radiation levels recorded still pose no serious risk to human health.

Rob A. Bank

yoganmahew wrote: »

"if fears of a massive explosion are realised, fallout could reach us"
Not sure there are any fears of a massive explosion.

""If there was an explosion of up to 30,000 feet, that (material) would be carried (across the world)," he said."
Again, explosion? AFAIK, it was continuous, long duration and very hot fires at Chernobyl that caused the plume from there to reach the heights it did.

It is, admittedly, difficult to point out incorrect facts in an article that appears to only contain tangential facts (weather carries stuff, Scottish sheep don't need to be tested...).

So the article is factually correct then...

yoganmahew

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

So the article is factually correct then...

Eh, no, the article is a series of unconnected theoretical situations strung together with conjunctives.

Donal Og O Baelach

Fallschirmjager wrote: »

in a attempt to lift the mood a little



but if you really want to see how you can sidestep a tsunami wave check out the guy who just steps inside before it sweeps by

but it still scares the bejesus out of me....

Amazing clip.
I didn't realise it was snowing even as the tsunami came in, had thought the weather went bad a few days after. Made it very difficult for any trapped survivors who would obviously be soaked wet and frozen.

On another note - I agree with another poster that many people in this thread are taking themselves way too seriously. This is just a message forum. Nobody is going to change the world from here.

Thrill

vibe666 wrote: »

when you say "over there" are you talking about in the immediate area of the earthquakes & tsunami or just "in japan"?

sorry to sound callous, but if they're in japan several hundred miles away from the main problems then its not really relevant if they are not in any danger.

i have friends in japan too, as i'm sure a lot of people will have to some degree but since they aren't in any danger, it wasn't worth mentioning as they are safe and well and out of harms way.

as for all the rescue shelters being "very well sorted out", i'm pretty sure that the reports of some of them having no access to food, heat, blankets or medical supplies and having survivors die due directly to a lack of those supplies in freezing temperatures is hardly the rosy picture you're trying to paint.

this thread should be here to educate people to what is actually going on in japan, the day to day struggles of the people there, how they've been affected and what (if anything) people can do to help.

unfortunately, i think the only thing people here can really do to help them is to make sure the real stories get out and encourage everyone around them to keep a level head and educate the people they know who might not have access to the information here and are relying (god forbid) the mainstream news to tell them the truth.

If you want people to know about the things you think are important then post about them. If you are concerned that aspects are being ignored then no-one is stopping you from telling us about them.

I did a quick check and have found that you have posted 12 times in this thread, and while you have moaned about people not mentioning other aspects of the disaster, you have not posted a single thing about it yourself except to complain about the direction of the thread and, oddly enough, a couple of posts about Fukushima..

A lot of the posters who have been posting about the Fukushima aspect of the disaster have also been posting about the humanitarian aspects as well, far more than you have.

So instead of giving out, post the stories you feel need to be highlighted.

Rob A. Bank

Attempts at the mushroom treatment* still going on ?

"The test ban treaty group routinely does radiation projections in an effort to understand which of its global stations to activate for monitoring the worldwide ban on nuclear arms testing. It has more than 60 stations that sniff the air for radiation spikes and uses weather forecasts and powerful computers to model the transport of radiation on the winds.

On Wednesday, the agency declined to release its Japanese forecast, which The New York Times obtained from other sources. The forecast was distributed widely to the agency's member states."

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/japan-nuclear-crisis-scientists-project-path-of-radiation-plume-92247?cp

There appears to be an effort to conceal what is happening (or likely to happen) to the plume of radioactive fallout from the Japanese power plant.

I have read messages from mariners on ships in the Pacific who are frantic to know where the plume is and what the spread is likely to be... yet there is no good information for them so that they can take avoiding action, just like the US navy 7th fleet did.

There is no good reason to withold a map that actually tracks the path of the cloud, with actual measurements on a scale that can communicate effects on humans. There is less reason to try to hide the simulations.

You can be damn sure that the radiation plume is being tracked, but that results are not being published. That is very unsettling, and leads to some of the wilder speculation which we have already seen.

(* keep them in the dark and feed them horsesh1t )

Cathaoirleach

Water cannon in action

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8Tds5d-ApU

Overheal

Fallschirmjager wrote: »

saw this over on tepco

At 2:00 pm, March 18th , water discharge by fire engine has started with
the cooperation of Self-Defense Forces and Military of United States of
America. At 2:45 pm, March 18th , they had finished water discharge.
At 0:45 am, March 19th , water discharge by hyper rescue troop has
started with the cooperation of Tokyo Fire Department. At 1:10 am, March
19th , they had finished water discharge.

Notice...the US military is on site....

Whats your point?

On another note - I agree with another poster that many people in this thread are taking themselves way too seriously. This is just a message forum. Nobody is going to change the world from here.

I'll throw my hat on that. The main thing here is to dispel all this doom-saying apocalypse conspiracy theory 2012 BS for my part. Otherwise my actions have no bearing whatsoever on whats going on in Japan.

So the article is factually correct then...

Ignoring the fact of how will an explosion would reach 30,000 feet? Unless the worrier who wrote that was considering a nuclear detonation - an impossible circumstance - he is only fear-mongering.

Topper Harley01

Video of a Japanese Coast Guard ship taking on the tsunami. They were lucky it was still building at this point, if the wave had been on the point of breaking they would most likely have been destroyed.

Another frightening video of the wave hitting the coast here:

Fallschirmjager

Overheal wrote: »

Whats your point?

er, that they now have extra help..from the US..and a fresh pair of eyes...

Rob A. Bank

A link which explores a possible source of the leaks in the spent fuel pools with some detailed drawings and images. The integrity of the seals depends on electricity from the power grid !!! These pools have been without electricity for over a week !

“A possible source of the leak in the Unit 4 pool may be the seals around the doors (or “gates”) on one side of the spent fuel pool…

When the gates are closed, they are made watertight by an inflatable seal, similar to a bicycle innertube, that runs around the sides and bottom of the gates. Electric air pumps are used to inflate these seals and keep them inflated as air leaks out of them over time.

These pumps are powered by electricity from the power grid, and not by backup diesel power or batteries. So once the power grid in Japan was knocked out, these seals could not be inflated if they lost air over time. If these seals lost air they could lead to significant water loss from the pool, even if there were no direct physical damage to the pool from the earthquake or tsunami. This may be what happened at pool 4, and could affect the other pools as well.”

http://allthingsnuclear.org/post/3964225685/possible-source-of-leaks-at-spent-fuel-pools-at

:eek: