Japanese earthquake / tsunami discussion

Rob A. Bank

andrew wrote: »

Noone's denying that radiation can be harmful. Radiation in large doses can be harmful. Some people have large amounts of radon in their homes. When this is the case, it's harmful. Similarly, if people in Japan had large amounts of radiation 'showering' down on them, it would be harmful. But they don't. They're being exposed to a negligible amount of extra radiation; hence the accusations that you're scaremongering.

In that case the the National Cancer Institute in the USA is guilty of scaremongering too.

"The National Research Council of the National Academies, Committee to Assess the Health Risks from Exposure to Low Levels of Ionizing Radiation, the Biologic Effects of Ionizing Radiation VII report,URL="http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/prevention/overview/HealthProfessional#Reference1.6"][COLOR=#0066cc]6[/COLOR][/URL the most widely cited source on the topic, concluded after a comprehensive review of the medical literature that no dose of radiation should be considered completely safe, and attempts should be made to keep radiation doses as low as possible."

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/prevention/overview/HealthProfessional#Section_97

Rob A. Bank

Chernobyl and Fukushima

"Austrian researchers have used a worldwide network of radiation detectors – designed to spot clandestine nuclear bomb tests – to show that iodine-131 is being released at daily levels 73 per cent of those seen after the 1986 disaster. The daily amount of caesium-137 released from Fukushima Daiichi is around 60 per cent of the amount released from Chernobyl"

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20285-fukushima-radioactive-fallout-nears-chernobyl-levels.html

Canis Lupus

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

Chernobyl and Fukushima

"Austrian researchers have used a worldwide network of radiation detectors – designed to spot clandestine nuclear bomb tests – to show that iodine-131 is being released at daily levels 73 per cent of those seen after the 1986 disaster. The daily amount of caesium-137 released from Fukushima Daiichi is around 60 per cent of the amount released from Chernobyl"

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20285-fukushima-radioactive-fallout-nears-chernobyl-levels.html

I'm sorry, can you explain where you got the quote from because it's not contained in the link you provided. EDIT: {retracted}

Mothman

Canis Lupus wrote: »

I'm sorry, can you explain where you got the quote from because it's not contained in the link you provided.

In the very first paragraph

Canis Lupus

Mothman wrote: »

In the very first paragraph

Jeez. I swear I clicked the link twice, and double checked and it opened a totally different page :P Noob fail

[edit] ah I see what I did now. I kept clicking the link above *sighs*

Jimmy Garlic

123balltv wrote: »

they had yellow rain anyone else heard of this
weather agency said 'cause of yellow rain found to be pollen'
thats strange its being snowing in Japan for a while now

Pollen in march, yeah right.

Overheal

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

In that case the the National Cancer Institute in the USA is guilty of scaremongering too.

"The National Research Council of the National Academies, Committee to Assess the Health Risks from Exposure to Low Levels of Ionizing Radiation, the Biologic Effects of Ionizing Radiation VII report,URL="http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/prevention/overview/HealthProfessional#Reference1.6"][COLOR=#0066cc]6[/COLOR][/URL the most widely cited source on the topic, concluded after a comprehensive review of the medical literature that no dose of radiation should be considered completely safe, and attempts should be made to keep radiation doses as low as possible."

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/prevention/overview/HealthProfessional#Section_97

I hardly find that scaremongering, just a statement of the facts. Sleeping next to someone probably increases your risk of cancer by 0.00000001% - making it impossible to consider it completely safe.

All I can try to impress on you is that you appear to be exhibiting signs of Radiophobia.

I mean hell even I request lead for my boys when I take any kind of x-ray, but this panic is getting out of hand. It's also something which will happen or it wont. It's entirely out of your hands. Why would you lose sleep about it? If you're scared: good man, get some iodine. The rest of us will enjoy good weather and have barbecues. Speaking of which, my beer runneth dry.

shadowninty

Rob, I hope you give up driving, or walking across roads and immediately cease all contact with anyone who comes in contact with tobaco smoke as it increases your risk :eek:

vibe666

shadowninty wrote: »

Rob, I hope you give up driving, or walking across roads and immediately cease all contact with anyone who comes in contact with tobaco smoke as it increases your risk :eek:

don't forget sitting in front of a computer screen all day posting links on forums.

that increases your exposure to radiation, so Rob should stop that immediately to minimise the risk. :pac:

gbee

vibe666 wrote: »

don't forget sitting in front of a computer screen all day posting links on forums.

that increases your exposure to radiation, so Rob should stop that immediately to minimise the risk. :pac:

I think we've had a very exhaustive post on this very subject, so I'd say you are probably not factual here.

Bradidup

vibe666 wrote: »

don't forget sitting in front of a computer screen all day posting links on forums.

that increases your exposure to radiation, so Rob should stop that immediately to minimise the risk. :pac:

It depends on the screen. CRT has about 9 radiations.

vibe666

gbee wrote: »

I think we've had a very exhaustive post on this very subject, so I'd say you are probably not factual here.

i'm afraid i am.

Rob wants to minimise his exposure to radiation and by his own assertions ALL radiation is bad and you should minimise your exposure which is why he needs to take his own advice and he's going to have to stop using a computer monitor, regardless of if it is CRT or LCD.

an LCD does indeed emit a lot less radiation than a CRT, but if it emits light then it emits radiation (as visible light is actually a type of EM radiation), so end of story.

of course when you factor in a little thing i like to call 'reality' into the equation, like most of the stuff that Rob posts about here the levels involved are minuscule and nothing to worry about, but that isn't what Rob wants everyone to believe because he likes to make a habit of unnecessarily scaring people, hence the point of my post.

so Rob, are you going to take your own advice and turn off your monitor to minimise your exposure to radiation?

digme

Yellow rain falls on Tokyo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_z5yL1sJP4

Thinking back to 20 years ago, it’s the splashing in yellow rainwater that Antonina Sergieff vividly recalls.
The third-year graduate student didn’t know it then, but the unnatural color of those puddles in her hometown of Gomel, Belarus were due to radioactive particles spewing from a nuclear explosion 80 miles away.

vibe666

here we go again, Rob mk2. :rolleyes:

do you have any evidence whatsoever that this is anything other than what it was reported to be?

everyone and their mother in tokyo must have a Geiger counter by now (not even counting the plethora of independently monitored radiation detection equipment all over japan), so it would be a very simple exercise to measure the radiation levels of the pollen to see if it is in fact radioactive instead of trying to scare people by showing a video of it and then quoting people from Chernobyl.

Hotblack Desiato

vibe666 wrote: »

do you have any evidence whatsoever that this is anything other than what it was reported to be?

Sigh. Remember back when it was thought that the internet would make people smarter? :pac:


But seriously, it's not down to the internet, bad news travels fastest, it's just human nature and the less people actually know and understand about a risk (e.g. flying in a plane as opposed to driving in a car*) the more exaggerated and alarmist the stories they spread. Some people are channeling their inner caveman, I guess. Others do seem to enjoy spreading unnecessary fear though.



* of course we all know that flying is safer. The most dangerous thing an airline pilot does each day is drive to work.

Turtwig

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0v8i4v1mieU

Nuclear fission in action.:D

Chad ghostal

just my 2c..

enda1 wrote: »

Knowing the Japanese culture quite/very well, I understand a lot of Western people reacting slightly panicked. This is because in their society they place a lot of trust in their authorities. Their is therefore a large onus on the authorities to prevent widespread panic, so information is very limited and in my opinion untrustworthy.

In my experience it's been quite the opposite, people are distrusting the government and
TEPCO, even when they seem to be explaining things in a straightforward manner they are trying to read between the lines.

enda1 wrote: »

Also there it is a very rigid society, also in the company world with a strongly top down approach. To pass problems upwards is frowned upon, so there is a tenancy to try to hide problems or solve them on the ground level because it looks like a failure of yours if you report upwards. For this reason there can be a delay in information coming to management and subsequently to authorities, media etc.

this is fairly true and quite worrying I think.. but I would think/hope in this case that there are so few subordinates, such a small chain of command and in such a serious situation that this would not be the case.

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

Pollen in march, yeah right.

It's spring in Tokyo, Hanami season, pollen everywhere, everything blooming.. people wearing masks because of the pollen and ill health, but not because of any radiation threat (in 99% of the cases anyway).

Here's a geiger counter in Tokyo that is updated frequently:
http://park30.wakwak.com/~weather/geiger_index.html
It showed all of the previous spikes and some unmentioned in the press, but all were very minor and nothing to be worried about.. There are more in different parts of Tokyo if anyone chooses not to believe this one for whatever reason.

Rob A. Bank

REUTERS - Daily radiation at a point 30 km (19 miles) northwest of Japan's quake-stricken Fukushima nuclear plant on Friday exceeded the annual limit on natural doses, Kyodo news agency quoted the science ministry as saying.

No doubt due to bird droppings from Hiroshima according to the pro nuclear propagandists here

:rolleyes:

Rob A. Bank

High radiation leak suggests damage to No. 3 reactor vessel

A high-level radiation leak detected Thursday at one of six troubled reactors at the crisis-hit Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant indicates possible damage to the reactor's vessel, pipes or valves, the government's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency said Friday.

Three workers at the No. 3 reactor's turbine building, connected to the reactor building, were exposed Thursday to water containing radioactive materials 10,000 times the normal level.

http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/80947.html

Rob A. Bank

Lack of data from Japan distresses nuclear experts

Nuclear scientists and policy experts say the quality and quantity of information coming out of Fukushima has left gaping holes in their understanding of the nuclear disaster nearly two weeks after it began.

How did Japanese workers at the crippled Fukushima nuclear plant jury-rig fire hoses to cool damaged reactors? Is contaminated water from waste pools overflowing into the Pacific Ocean? Exactly who is the national incident commander?

The answers to these and many other questions are unclear to U.S. nuclear scientists and policy experts, who say the quality and quantity of information coming out of Japan has left gaping holes in their understanding of the disaster nearly two weeks after it began.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-sci-japan-quake-secrecy-20110325,0,3610246.story

Rob A. Bank

High radiation detected in water at plant

Tokyo Electric Power Company says it has detected high levels of radioactive substances in water that 3 workers were exposed to at the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

The company says 3.9 mbecquerels of radioactive substances per cubic centimeter were detected in the water that the workers were standing in. That is 10,000 times higher than levels of the water inside a nuclear reactor in operation.

The level of radioactive cerium-144 was 2.2 million becquerels. Also, 1.2 million becquerels of iodine-131 was measured. These substances are generated during nuclear fission inside a reactor.

Tokyo Electric says damage to the No.3 reactor and spent nuclear fuel rods in a storage pool may have produced the highly radioactive water.

I await the downplaying and disinformation from the choirboys...

:rolleyes:

Canis Lupus

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

High radiation detected in water at plant

Tokyo Electric Power Company says it has detected high levels of radioactive substances in water that 3 workers were exposed to at the troubled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant.

The company says 3.9 mbecquerels of radioactive substances per cubic centimeter were detected in the water that the workers were standing in. That is 10,000 times higher than levels of the water inside a nuclear reactor in operation.

The level of radioactive cerium-144 was 2.2 million becquerels. Also, 1.2 million becquerels of iodine-131 was measured. These substances are generated during nuclear fission inside a reactor.

Tokyo Electric says damage to the No.3 reactor and spent nuclear fuel rods in a storage pool may have produced the highly radioactive water.

I await the downplaying and disinformation from the choirboys...

:rolleyes:

We already reported on that a few pages ago. If you didn't spam so many posts this thread would be less cluttered and you would have seen it. 4 in a row above me, can you not save your links up and post all at once?

vibe666

Canis Lupus wrote: »

We already reported on that a few pages ago. If you didn't spam so many posts this thread would be less cluttered and you would have seen it. 4 in a row above me, can you not save your links up and post all at once?

if nothing else, can we get a mod to disable the options for editing text in posts so we don't have to constantly have captain alarmist's posts constantly jammed into our eyeballs every time he finds a new sensationalist story and feels compelled to post it in massive bold text to try and scare people? :rolleyes:

gbee

No 3 reactor: 10,000 times normal leaked from the reactor is against the normal water level. The coolant water is in contact with the fuel rods and circulates inside the reactor so the radiation level is normal for this coolant but is should stay confined.

Radioactive Iodine is found in the water, it has ½ life 8 days. As it is detected in the water it is a recent spill from the reactor, indicating a leak in the reactor. The reactor itself is unlikely to be damaged but the pipe work and or valves may have cracks and the coolant leaked out [perhaps].

Restoring coolant function may be compromised by further leaks but full functionality and sensors are not restored so tracing the leak is not immediately possible.

Reactor No1 and No2 should have freshwater coolant restored by end of the day.

gbee

PM Naoto Kan: Monitoring is being increased and will be providing the reposts openly and promptly. Homes medical institutes, employment and education, agriculture, industry and work sectors will all be assisted. We believe it is necessary to rebuild our lives and we have set up a task force to relieve the situation in effected areas.

We will be despatching government personnel to other prefectures to assist in local management. Central government is willing to share in the burden and ask people in the devastated areas to summon the courage to keep moving forward. The government is working around the clock to support every efforts and would like to ask the Japanese peoples support in this area as we all need to work together to assist in the worst disaster since WWII.

Two weeks has past and would like to encourage the Japanese people to strengthen our unity and work together.
{in reply to question about Fukushima Dai-ichi } We cannot be overtly optimistic; we must treat every development with the utmost care.

vibe666

Baby dolphin rescued from rice field 2km from the sea

A baby dolphin has been rescued in Japan after being dumped in a rice field by a giant tsunami that hit the coast on March 11.

The dolphin was spotted in the flooded field, about 2 km (a mile) from the coast, said Ryo Taira, a pet-shop owner who has been rescuing animals abandoned after the 9.0 magnitude quake and tsunami left 23,000 people dead or missing.

there's also a good story on the BBC website about how the tsunami has bought what's left of a rural community much closer together and how they are all living and working together to help themselves and their neighbours. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12845419

The village of Odachi, just outside Ofunato in Iwate prefecture, is like so many others along Japan's coast.

Homes splintered, lives destroyed.

When the tsunami thundered in, it swept right up the little valley the community nestles in, between the cedar-fringed hills.

Buildings were flung about, and came to rest at the high-water mark.

Shuichi Shida was luckier than most. His family survived and he even remembered the dog when he ran to safety.

His house stood while those around it were destroyed.

But the wave smashed right through, even upstairs. His home will probably have to be knocked down.

"It's been nearly two weeks since the tsunami," he says. "I still have no idea what to do."

Japan's government has marshalled its military in a massive aid operation, but the people are also trying to help themselves.

'Close relationships'

Every mealtime in Odachi, the survivors head up to the three houses belonging to the extended Kino family, at the top of the hill.

Much of the village is living there now.

Run_to_da_hills

Fukushima Nuclear Disaster Raised to Level 6 surpassing 3 Mile Island and one below Chernoble..

This was obvious last week as soon as we heard that radiation was spewing out into the atmosphere.

IMO it should be a level 7 taking into consideration the state of NO3 and the amount of contamination escaping. Chernobel only had one reactor to deal with, this has several along with tons and tons of spent rods.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/fukushima-raised-level-6-ines-scale-now-officially-more-serious-3-mile-island

Overheal

I doubt it will reach 7 until fires start erupting, people are dying, the area is left uninhabitable, and the place is buried. And then you have that whole Bridge of Death thing. I haven't heard of any cases where the exposure has gotten to the point of instant lethality yet.

But I agree this should have been a 6 when the first containment vessel blew it's roof. Right then it was already worse than Three Mile Island.

What remains to be seen is if there will be high mortality or a large area cordoned off.

vibe666

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Fukushima Nuclear Disaster Raised to Level 6 surpassing 3 Mile Island and one below Chernoble..

This was obvious last week as soon as we heard that radiation was spewing out into the atmosphere.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/fukushima-raised-level-6-ines-scale-now-officially-more-serious-3-mile-island

have you got a legitimate news source for this other than a post on zerohedge leading to a tweet from someone who 'heard it' from someone else leading nowhere?

the closest thing i can find is someone hinting that the US NRC has *unofficially* raised the alert level themselves, but none of the regular news sources seem to be carrying that story and there don't appear to be any official statements confirming this anywhere.

EDIT: actually i'll take that back , i found reference to it here: http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201103250204.html

still no official sources yet tho, but it probably should be level 6 at this stage.

vibe666

looks like the Americans have finished washing their boat an are coming to help out at fukushima to provide some fresh water via giant barges moored off-shore.

http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/25_22.html

Kitazawa: US to help avoid salt damage in reactors
Japan's defense minister says the government plans to switch from seawater to fresh water to cool the crippled reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, with the support of US forces.

Toshimi Kitazawa told reporters on Friday that the United States urged Japan to quickly switch to fresh water, and offered to help do so.

Seawater has been used at the plant as an emergency measure, but salt in the water could lead to corrosion of the reactors' interiors.

The US forces and Japan's Self-Defense Forces have drawn up plans to anchor off the Fukushima coast US Navy barges capable of carrying large amounts of water, and send water via pipelines to the plant.
The US military is also to provide a high-powered pump to send water through the pipelines, and Japanese SDF vessels are to be mobilized to refill the barges with water.

The US vessels have already left their base in Yokosuka, near Tokyo. The US forces and SDF hope to set up the pipelines and other systems for the operation as soon as next week.
Friday, March 25, 2011 15:22 +0900 (JST)