Japanese earthquake / tsunami discussion

andrew

peasant wrote: »

Ehhh no ...

Reactor-> water->ocean->Bioaccumulation-> fish-> sushi-> you

There's still not enough to cause much damage. Fish can be tested to see if they're too radioactive, and not eaten if this is the case. I doubt there's enough radioactive water to cause significant bio accumulation.

Mister men

Overheal wrote: »

In fairness at least one of those simpsons moments was pretty dark, with the kids huddled around the couch and kent brockman in panic. How does Homer solve it? With Eenie Meenie Miney Moe.

In fairness at this point it would just be Fear-Mongering. There is no imminent threat to You is there? Nor is there an imminent threat to Me. When there is we'll be notified. I've already been notified of negligible amounts of radiation in Massachusetts rainwater. Excuse me while I run to my fallout shelter. :rolleyes:

We'll see.

gargleblaster

take everything wrote: »

Yeah.
It seems to be cursory coverage.
Fiona Bruce on the BBC news has just told me the situation is worsening.
That's it- no other detail as to how or why it's worsening.



The situation is recently worsening, isn't it? There was confusion recently about the exact amounts of radiation workers were exposed to. I don't think the situation is unchanging. Isn't this newsworthy?



Surely this apparent (deliberate?) misinformation/confusion is newsworthy?

i think the tv is (as always) the worst source of news. there are several recent updates about the leak in the maintenance tunnel from a few major american newspapers and there's also a story on bbc about it. the la times did a story last week about the gaps in the information coming from the authorities in japan.

so it seems like little has changed in the coverage aside from the lack of attention from tabloids and tv news.

peasant

andrew wrote: »

There's still not enough to cause much damage. Fish can be tested to see if they're too radioactive, and not eaten if this is the case. I doubt there's enough radioactive water to cause significant bio accumulation.

No, not yet

But as others have pointed out, the situation is getting consistenly worse and there is no sign that serious efforts are being made to contain this mess.

There is probably little to no real danger from this for the rest of the world, certainly not for us here in Europe, but I'm really getting worried about Japan as a whole and not just the Fukishima region.

These four reactors are festering away, slowly but surely polluting ever bigger areas of sea and land. Already we're looking at thousands of cubic meters of highly radioactive water and Plutonium on the ground. Give it another Hydrogen gas explosion and/or a few more leaks combined with the wrong wind and/or currents and they'll make large swathes of Japan uninhabitable for months or years.

Never mind the health risks ...just imagine the economical damage when a significant percentage of Japans factories, farming and fishing industry have to be shut down for months or even years.

The handling of this crisis is absolutely shambolic, considering the possible consequences.

Tepco and the Japanese governement have to realise that the time for saving face is long over and get busy saving their country.

Rob A. Bank

Something to ponder for those who feel that low dose radiation is no harm.

Radioactive fallout from the Chernobyl disaster impaired the mental development of Swedish children that were still in the womb at the time of the incident. That's the conclusion of a study of 562,637 Swedes born in the mid-1980s which showed that affected children went on to perform poorly at school.

The findings suggest that infants are endangered by radiation exposure at levels previously thought to be safe.

The radiation exposure of the Swedish mothers was estimated at below 3 mSv. They found that academic performance was generally weaker in all children still in utero at the time of maternal exposure to Chernobyl fallout, and this effect was most pronounced for those foetuses at 8 to 25 weeks post conception. This is the peak period of brain development when cells may be particularly vulnerable to being killed by relatively low doses of radiation.

You can read the study here http://faculty.arts.ubc.ca/criddell/chernoby.pdf

BTW background radiation in Ireland is approximately 4.1 mSv and Kerry appears to have had a hotspot from Chernobyl.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_wNICDkSSg1I/RuV773MrnDI/AAAAAAAAAAk/tMeUcjuCdDQ/s400/400px-Radioactive_fallout_caesium137_after_Chernobyl.jpg

Run_to_da_hills

Japan lacking radioactive water storage: US experts.

"Japan's Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant may have run out of room to store radioactive water, US scientists said Monday after the plant operator reported leaks that could contaminate the ocean.

The stricken plant is likely grappling with massive amounts of water, dumped by helicopter and water cannon for cooling after the power went out in the days following a massive earthquake and tsunami on March 11, said the Union of Concerned Scientists in a conference call with reporters".

It doesn't take rocket science to figure that this problem would eventually come about.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hlkw9Naz9zbM-lkEkbSNZMaTjCIQ?docId=CNG.c1d5ac807748f7defd76c46d8c484e61.641

Turtwig

Wow, this thread just keeps on going and seems to almost 90-95% Nuclear related now.

• The three workers that were hospitalised were exposed to 170 mSv. Apparently they actually ignored their dosimeters and continued on working. A full investigation will obviously be carried out. Given the radionuclides that were present it would appear the water came from the reactor system itself and not the spent fuel pools. There was no uranium or plutonium present. The pressure readings in the reactor vessel have given no indication of a big leak leaving a serious question : Where did the water and high radioactivity come from so quickly? It apparently wasn't present the day before the accident when a radiation survey of the area was carried out. In all honesty, this makes no sense because at the very least you'd expect low level contamination in the turbine building if there is a problem with the reactor. Either someone f*cked up, or there's a big leak somewhere that no one currently knows where. I'm edging towards the former but we'll just have to wait and see.
  
• It's been clear now with over a week (two weeks? I've lost track of time now?) that damage to the fuel cores has occurred. The plutonium is the offspring of the uranium fuel decay. The problem officials (and indeed international observers) have is that Japan is already permeated with levels of plutonium isotopes making it difficult to distinguish exactly which low level background plutonium is from the Nuclear Bomb Detonations and which is related to the accident at the plant. Obviously if the plutonium levels become high they'll know immediately what's causing it but for the purposes of evaluating the state of the plant it's yet another unwanted headache. So far [Measurement : 22 March] only two soil samples having an activity level identifiable with that of being from the plant have been confidently recognised. These are well within the limits of causing harm to humans.
  [Another note on the plutonium.
  Some news outlets reported that Tepco claimed they didn't have equipment for measuring plutonium levels as a scaremongering fact claiming this was woeful disaster management not being able to detect a hazardous substance.] :rolleyes:
  
  
• Freshwater injections are underway in Unit's I, II, and III. Freshwater should reduce the variety of radioactive isotopes present as compared to sea water. I can't seem to find if this water is also boronated or not. I assume it is.
  
• Spent fuel pools are being continuously monitored and will be sprayed and injected when necessary.
• Periodic evacuations of the plants are still expected for the next two weeks or more due to necessary pressure venting of radioactive materials within the reactor cores and pumping of contaminated water from areas that were used to "house" it.
  
• Units V and VI are on course for a cold shutdown by the end of the week I think, I read the time frame but I've forgotten it and well you can just use the auld google tool :P.

One thing is definitely clear progress has definitely being made.:) Lessons will obviously be learned from this event and there will always things that could have been done differently, but I cannot fathom the suggestion by some that the Japanese aren't making a serious effort. The only real bad thing that can happen here is re-criticality within a reactor which is extremely unlikely, but Tepco thinks it's still slightly possible. This is after all an event that goes beyond your typical beyond design event and more into the realm of Holy f*ck this is beyond any analysed event.:eek:

Another terrifying video showing the tsunami ravaging Kesenuma. As one of the youtube comments note, look at the how the water level changes so drastically! Jesus, I'd have sworn some of the those "higher" buildings would have been safe, but even the camera person must have been sh1tting his boots when s/he saw how high the water was getting.:eek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b-2iByqHVI

(Apologies if it has already been posted)



Off topic but relevant if you're a Ninja:
Regarding Helicopters being affected by radiation at Chernobyl. My "source" was from documentaries I'd seen on Chernobyl but I honestly can't find any web reference, link or anything. So I'll just concede the point. This post has already been way longer than I anticipated.

Wetbench4

Its scary to think of all the terrorist suicide bombers watching this on tv. Lets hope they don't get any ideas.:(

andrew

Wetbench4 wrote: »

Its scary to think of all the terrorist suicide bombers watching this on tv. Lets hope they don't get any ideas.:(

Unless the suicide bomber is himself wearing a nuclear bomb, I doubt there'd be much he could do.

Wetbench4

andrew wrote: »

Unless the suicide bomber is himself wearing a nuclear bomb, I doubt there'd be much he could do.

Would it be that hard to set a a normal bomb off in a nuclear power station?
I like the personal mini nuke backpack idea though:D

andrew

Wetbench4 wrote: »

Would it be that hard to set a a normal bomb off in a nuclear power station?
I like the personal mini nuke backpack idea though:D

If the amount of explosives is limited by the amount a person could carry, then it'd be too small to cause damage to containment.

...unless he had a suitcase nuke

Turtwig

andrew wrote: »

If the amount of explosives is limited by the amount a person could carry, then it'd be too small to cause damage to containment.

...unless he had a suitcase nuke

And even then s/he be extremely stupid to try to take it anywhere near a Nuclear Power Plant where security is kinda fierce and radiation detectors usually cover the entrances. If you were terrorist and a had somehow obtained a suitcase Nuke you'd be foolish not to just it use in a densely packed city.

Run_to_da_hills

andrew wrote: »

If the amount of explosives is limited by the amount a person could carry, then it'd be too small to cause damage to containment.

...unless he had a suitcase nuke

The underbelly of any nuclear power station would be the pump house.

Turtwig

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

The underbelly of any nuclear power station would be the pump house.

???

Run_to_da_hills

Malty_T wrote: »

???

Look what happened at Fukashima when the pumps / back up pumps failed.

Turtwig

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Look what happened at Fukashima when the pumps / back up pumps failed.

Still Lost.

Every with the loss of all three back up cooling systems nothing should have still happened. It's likely because the earthquake, tsunami and ensuing aftershocks caused even more structural damage probably to the hydrogen recombiner which was the root cause of the observed explosion. Although that is just speculation we must wait until a full report is done. All that is assuming it's a Fukushima like reactor you're targeting. Some Reactors also avail of passive cooling techniques.

Let me put it another way, there were four nuclear power plants in the direct line of fire of the mag 9.0 earthquake, tsunami and a barrage of aftershocks. 3 of the 4 survived with no major problems. How the heck can a terrorist possibly hope to top that effort?

Cathaoirleach

Plutonium has been detected in soil at the facility and highly radioactive water has leaked from a reactor building.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12889541

gbee

Kan: He says was not responsible for the delay in venting radioactive on the 12th of March as he visited the site. {the argument being that the site prepared for the visit of the premier !!! rather than continuing working o the developing problem}.

By other reports from an early stage some criticism was made that plant operators had not followed procedures in a timely manner in the first few hours. Obviously if the premier is coming to your plant ~ I guess I’d be impressed too and maybe not report my problems [as per Japanese custom] until the premier had departed.

vibe666

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

Plutonium has been detected in soil at the facility and highly radioactive water has leaked from a reactor building.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12889541

very slightly elevated plutonium levels in fukushima from the plant that are still only as high as the background levels in several other parts of japan where fallout from hiroshima & nagasaki still lies.

not saying its not important, but some perspective is also important. over 28,000 dead or missing (and still likely to rise significantly as time goes on) is very important.

Worztron

Even a tiny amount of plutonium can kill (sooner or later). I read somewhere before that as little as a full stop size of plutonium WILL cause cancer.

Canis Lupus

Worztron wrote: »

Even a tiny amount of plutonium can kill (sooner or later). I read somewhere before that as little as a full stop size of plutonium WILL cause cancer.

Like it lies in wait or something? You just never know when it's going to strike? Was just reading up on Plutonium there, doesn't sound too bad apart from it's long half life.

Worztron

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Like it lies in wait or something? You just never know when it's going to strike? Was just reading up on Plutonium there, doesn't sound too bad apart from it's long half life.

If someone inhales plutonium dust for example.

Canis Lupus

Worztron wrote: »

If someone inhales plutonium dust for example.

According to the never incorrect wiki "Ingestion or inhalation of large amounts may cause acute radiation poisoning and death; no human is known to have died because of inhaling or ingesting plutonium, and many people have measurable amounts of plutonium in their bodies."

Reports state at this time the levels found are not a health risk.

Rob A. Bank

Yeaa.. Plutonium is just like pixie dust... inhaleing it makes you happy !

also on the same wiki page....

"This makes the toxicity of plutonium roughly equivalent with that of nerve gas."

Run_to_da_hills

Plutonium is the worlds most dangerous element. Ingestion is lethal so the wearing of face masks and the strict monitoring of food stuffs will become a part of life in the effected areas.

http://kiranniranjan.blogspot.com/2011/02/plutonium-worlds-most-dangerous-element.html

Rob A. Bank

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l793wRWBFUI

Dr. Michio Kaku asks is Homer Simpson operating this plant ?

TheZohanS

Traces of radioactive iodine from Japan's stricken Fukushima power plant have been detected in Glasgow, according to Sky sources.

Authorities are stressing that there is no threat to public health.
Sky's Scotland correspondent James Matthews said the Health Protection Agency's Glasgow monitoring station - one of several it has across the UK - had picked up very small traces of radioactive iodine 131.
Matthews said: "My sources are telling me this has come from the incident in Japan.
"The public health authorities north of the border are monitoring these traces."
More follows ...
[/QUOTE]

Source.

Breaking news...

Canis Lupus

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

Yeaa.. Plutonium is just like pixie dust... inhaleing it makes you happy !

also on the same wiki page....

"This makes the toxicity of plutonium roughly equivalent with that of nerve gas."

Unless you can show dangerous levels of plutonium 'dust' is floating about then that's mostly irrelevant.

EDIT: and whilst we're quoting wiki ""There were about 25 workers from Los Alamos National Laboratory who inhaled a considerable amount of plutonium dust during the 1940's; according to the hot-particle theory, each of them has a 99.5% chance of being dead from lung cancer by now, but there has not been a single lung cancer among them."

thecornflake

Canis Lupus wrote: »

Unless you can show dangerous levels of plutonium 'dust' is floating about then that's mostly irrelevant.

EDIT: and whilst we're quoting wiki ""There were about 25 workers from Los Alamos National Laboratory who inhaled a considerable amount of plutonium dust during the 1940's; according to the hot-particle theory, each of them has a 99.5% chance of being dead from lung cancer by now, but there has not been a single lung cancer among them."

Some did get lung cancer but they were heavy smokers.
They also had a club called UPPU which stood for you piss plutonium as they had so much of it in their systems. One chap (i forget his name) was stabbed by a needle containing plutonium in the finger and nothing much happened to him. The stuff is toxic and radioactive and will kill you in large doses but you could say the same for anything.

Fallschirmjager

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QynvYeppZ9Q

there is also people in the water...sweet jesus....