Japanese earthquake / tsunami discussion

Run_to_da_hills

vibe666 wrote: »

no, just reality rather than scaremongering bullsh*t stories from tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy sites interspersed with whatever alarmist articles happen to appear in the mainstream press which you conveniently and consistently quote mine for the scariest sounding paragraph to post with your links (usually in big bold type to add effect) whilst ignoring anything that doesn't fit with your doomsday scenarios.

Perhaps if Tepco and the Japanese authorities had been following these "Tin Foil hat" sites as you call them they would have had a good two week lead on encasing the reactor in concrete by now.

vibe666

My name is URL wrote: »

Has there been much else other than scare stories reported? Even the New Scientist ran an article yesterday which stated that the caesium-137 fallout from Fukushima rivals that of Chernobyl. Is there an opposite to fear-mongering.. perhaps false-sense-of-security-mongering?

People can only comment on what is being reported

yes, there's been plenty of calm, sensible stories reported on the thread which is something a lot of people have been praising it for, rather than the scaremongering initially reported in the press.

there's actually a wall of shame listing the reporters and publications that have wildly exaggerated or flat out lied about events in japan to sensationalise it and sell stories regardless of how much (or little) truth is actually in them.

to follow up on what Canis said, if you want to check previous posts by Rob.A.Bank you'll find all he's posted since the crisis in japan started is 175 posts in this thread and almost every single one of them is a scaremongering story, usually with the most scary over-exaggerated part quoted into the post in big bold type.

K-9

RTDH, great man to keep us up to date on the Daily Mail.

Rob A. Bank

Radioactive deposition levels more than twice that which triggered compulsory relocation in the aftermath of the Chernobyl accident 40km away from the plant... and what do we get from the usual suspects ?



5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy

http://www.whale.to/m/disin.html#Twenty-Five_Rules_of_Disinformation__

vibe666

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Perhaps if Tepco and the Japanese authorities had been following these "Tin Foil hat" sites as you call them they would have had a good two week lead on encasing the reactor in concrete by now.

that's hardly going to help them deal with all the irradiated water in the basement that you've been eagerly posting about is it?

but at least then you could report on it all leaking into the water table and causing more problems. :rolleyes:

vibe666

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

]and what do we get from the usual suspects ?

5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy

http://www.whale.to/m/disin.html#Twenty-Five_Rules_of_Disinformation__

and what numbers are "never let the truth get in the way of a good story" and "use bold text to highlight bullsh*t quotes made up entirely or taken out of context to scare people into believing you have a legitimate point"?

novarock

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Perhaps if Tepco and the Japanese authorities had been following these "Tin Foil hat" sites as you call them they would have had a good two week lead on encasing the reactor in concrete by now.

What irritates me more than the scaremongering is the fact that you talk about this like you have contained the meltdown of a few nuclear plants before, and everyone should be listening to your advice. You should also know if that is the case that they have to adequately cool the meltdown material before they encase it in concrete, as the temperatures are so high the material will liquify concrete/steel/anything on contact.

Leave the nuclear physics to the people that know about it, leave the googling for articles to the people that want to know about it. You know nothing about radiation, literally nothing, and less about power plants. Dont try and tell anyone else anything otherwise, and maybe try to show some optimism about it. Peoples lives are at stake here.

Akrasia

My name is URL wrote: »

Has there been much else other than scare stories reported? Even the New Scientist ran an article yesterday which stated (in the title) that the caesium-137 fallout from Fukushima rivals that of Chernobyl. Is there an opposite to fear-mongering.. perhaps false-sense-of-security-mongering?

People can only comment on what is being reported

It would probably help if people read the actual stories instead of just reading the headlines.

In most of the articles with scary headlines, there are explanations within the body of the article that explain why, although alarming, the situation is probably not out of control yet and it can still be contained if x and y and z happen.

it takes two to be alarmist, one to quote the alarmist material, and another to be alarmed by it without reading the actual link.

Here's a tip. if someone posts up an article about the crisis. First of all check the source, if it's from a nutjob conspiracy theory website (or the daily mail) then look elsewhere for your information. if it's from a more mainstream source, read the actual article before reaching for the panic button. If the article looks like it might be a bit over the top, try and cross reference the information with other sources and see if there is confusion or disagreement over the facts.

Akrasia

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Perhaps if Tepco and the Japanese authorities had been following these "Tin Foil hat" sites as you call them they would have had a good two week lead on encasing the reactor in concrete by now.

They would also have wasted billions in developing un-necessary anti bigfoot defences

Rob A. Bank

Updated model of the radioactive pollution of the northern hemisphere from Meteo France.

http://www.irsn.fr/FR/popup/Pages/irsn-meteo-france_30mars.aspx

Rob A. Bank

What's in Store for Japan's Embattled Nuclear Workers?

http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/2011/03/31/whats-in-store-for-japan’s-embattled-nuclear-workers/

"For now, Tepco's alternatives to continuing to expose workers to radiation are few. The power company could resort to using “jumpers,” which Reuters describes as “people who rush into a highly radioactive area, do one job, and then jump out within minutes. Some in the industry even refer to them as ‘gamma sponges' or ‘glow boys' because they can absorb a year's worth of radiation in those few minutes.”

Shades of Chernobyl yet again...

:eek:

Rob A. Bank

"Japan's damaged nuclear plant may be in danger of emitting sudden bursts of heat and radiation, undermining efforts to cool the reactors and contain fallout.

The potential for limited, uncontrolled chain reactions, voiced yesterday by the International Atomic Energy Agency, is among the phenomena that might occur, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano told reporters in Tokyo today. The IAEA "emphasized that the nuclear reactors won’t explode," he said."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-30/record-high-levels-of-radiation-found-in-sea-near-crippled-nuclear-reactor.html

novarock

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

"Japan's damaged nuclear plant may be in danger of emitting sudden bursts of heat and radiation, undermining efforts to cool the reactors and contain fallout.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-30/record-high-levels-of-radiation-found-in-sea-near-crippled-nuclear-reactor.html

fixed that sensationalism for you there. Hope the job in the Sunday World is going well.

Mister men

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

What's in Store for Japan's Embattled Nuclear Workers?

http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/2011/03/31/whats-in-store-for-japan’s-embattled-nuclear-workers/

"For now, Tepco's alternatives to continuing to expose workers to radiation are few. The power company could resort to using “jumpers,” which Reuters describes as “people who rush into a highly radioactive area, do one job, and then jump out within minutes. Some in the industry even refer to them as ‘gamma sponges' or ‘glow boys' because they can absorb a year's worth of radiation in those few minutes.”

Shades of Chernobyl yet again...

:eek:

Yeap looks bad alright. Only watched a documentry on Chernobel last year and the people that went in are heros who saved untold numbers of others with the work they did. God help the heros trying to contain the disaster in Japan now.:(

RichieC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPqJ8C4xU5w

Turtwig

New York Times

With the power out, trucks were parked in a circle with their lights on, creating a shadowy stage. A manager from the Tokyo Electric Power Company explained how the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant had been slammed by a mammoth tsunami and rocked by hydrogen explosions and had become highly radioactive. Some workers wept.

That was the scene at J-Village, 12 miles south of the plant, on the night of March 15. Hundreds of firefighters, Self-Defense Forces and workers from Tokyo Electric Power convened at the sports training center, arguing long and loudly about how best to restore cooling systems and prevent nuclear fuel from overheating. Complicating matters, a lack of phone service meant that they had little input from upper management.

n the interviews and in some e-mail and published blog items, several line workers expressed frustration at the slow pace of the recovery efforts, sometimes conflicting orders from their bosses and unavoidable hurdles like damaged roads. In many cases, the line workers want the public to know that they feel remorse for the nuclear crisis, but also that they are trying their best to fix it.

“My town is gone,” wrote a worker named Emiko Ueno, in an email obtained by The Times. “My parents are still missing. I still cannot get in the area because of the evacuation order. I still have to work in such a mental state. This is my limit.”

In Tokyo, bosses at Tokyo Electric ordered transmission and distribution teams to prepare their gear, including tons of batteries, cables and transformers. On March 14, workers were told that the assignment was dangerous and that they could opt out. Few did. Many workers felt duty-bound to go to Fukushima, particularly those with families who were directly affected by the earthquake and tsunami.

“I wanted to plug in the cable as soon as possible so the plant would have power again, but the nuclear people wanted to check the safety of various instruments first,” the worker said. “I was so excited to do something that I couldn’t stand the slow speed of the decision making.”

Soon, the team split up and some workers went to the substation. When the power lines were connected, the workers retreated to J-Village to wait. Their patience was rewarded.

At J-Village two days later, several dozen Tokyo Electric workers who had completed their tasks were killing time when their boss walked to a white board where their to-do list was written. Next to the last item, he wrote the character “ryo,” which means “good” or, in this case, “completed.”

“I’ll never forget the moment when the manager told us we were done,” said the longtime Tokyo Electric veteran present that day. “Everyone started yelling and crying.”

Lacking beer, the worker and his friends celebrated by sharing two bottles of Coca-Cola.

“The bubbles tasted so good,” he said.

Before heading back to Tokyo, the workers were tested to see how much radiation they had absorbed. No one, it turned out, had taken in inordinate amounts. They were tested again at the National Institute of Radiological Sciences in Chiba.

But like several false dawns in the effort to control the plant, the work they did to extend electrical power to the facility has yet to provide the turning point it once seemed to promise. The main reactor buildings are either too badly damaged, or too laden with radioactivity, to readily reconnect plumbing and electrical systems. And fellow workers at the plant now face even more severe hazards in keeping the reactors cool by pouring water on the fuel in the reactors and spent fuel pools.

Even in the Tokyo office of the power company, the lights and heaters are shut off to save energy. Many people wear coats at their desks and go home when it gets dark. The nuclear crisis is far from over; their company faces possible bankruptcy or nationalization, and many workers fear for their paychecks.

NewScientist

"Most of the workers at both the Fukushima Daiichi and Daini power plants are local residents. Many of our homes have been washed away. I myself have been on duty at contingency planning headquarters since the earthquake hit. My own parents are missing. I do not know where they are. I have been wanting to go search for them, but my home that was washed away is in a mandatory evacuation area and I can't even enter the area. Even the Self Defense Forces will not go to search for them. My mental state has reached the absolute limit under these extreme work conditions. The Daini plant workers has been taking care of this plant and going out to support the Daiichi plant as well."

Workers are subsisting on two meals a day. The first consists of two packages of about a dozen cookies and a small carton of vegetable juice. Dinner is processed rice with vegetables or dried curry plus a can of chicken, tuna or other meat.

Employees have been working, eating and sleeping in their work outfits. At night, if they are not on duty, they have been sleeping on chairs, or sometimes directly on the floor of their conference rooms.

"We understand they have blankets," says Omura. "We haven't heard of any beds or sleeping bags being made available. There isn't a lot of space."

Cellphone reception has been dead since the earthquake, and phone communication has only been possible through an internal corporate security line. "Workers have been making calls to their family using that corporate security line," said Omura.

Why irrational fear of radiation is such a bad thing.
Daily Telegraph.

The eight-year-old daughter of Takayuki Okamura was refused treatment for a skin rash by a clinic in Fukushima City, where the family is living in a shelter after abandoning their home in Minamisoma, 18 miles from the crippled nuclear plant."Just being forced to live in a shelter causes us anxiety," Mr Okamura, 49, said. "The institution's refusal to treat my daughter came as a great shock to us."

Medical experts have condemned those that are meant to be assisting the evacuees for turning them away. "This is a knee-jerk reaction based on the fear that these people are going to harm you," said Dr. Robert Gale, a haematologist at Imperial College, London, who is advising the Japanese government on health issues.
"If someone has been contaminated externally, such as on their shoes or clothes, then precautions can be taken, such as by removing those garments to stop the contamination from getting into a hospital," he told The Daily Telegraph. "That is very easy to do, but unfortunately I'm not surprised this sort of thing is happening."

Prejudice against people who used to live near the plant is reminiscent of the ostracism that survivors of the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945 experienced. Many suffered discrimination when they tried to rent housing, find employment or marriage partners.
More than 65 years ago, Dr. Gale points out, far less was known about the effects of radiation on the human body and that it is "completely irrational" to turn evacuees away today.

Hopefully all the above creates a better picture of the human drama involved in this. Yeah,sure, we can criticise their actions but at the very least we must bear in mind that we have no real hope of actually understanding the conditions they are experiencing firsthand.

Cathaoirleach

If your fed up reading sh!tty news reports about Fukushima, I think you'll find these videos a refreshing change.

http://www.fairewinds.com/multimedia

Turtwig

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

If your fed up reading sh!tty news reports about Fukushima, I think you'll find these videos a refreshing change.

http://www.fairewinds.com/multimedia

I don't think that's much better tbh, Mr Gunderson has been calling this Chernobyl since day one (or day two?).

Mister men

RichieC wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPqJ8C4xU5w

Scary. I wonder why the mainstream media are ignoring these kind of opinions of which i've heard many.

Hotblack Desiato

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

Some in the industry even refer to them as ‘gamma sponges' or ‘glow boys' because they can absorb a year's worth of radiation in those few minutes.”

Confirming that the occupational limits for exposure are still being enforced.
Thanks

peasant

The following is a non-sensationalist, non scaremongering, 100% factual post.

Good news: None of the reactors in Fukushima will explode like an atomic bomb. Fact!

Sadly this is about all the factual, non-scaremongering and non-sensationalist good news that can be reported about this nuclear incident this point in time.



Happy now?

Turtwig

peasant wrote: »

The following is a non-sensationalist, non scaremongering, 100% factual post.

Good news: None of the reactors in Fukushima will explode like an atomic bomb. Fact!

Sadly this is about all the factual, non-scaremongering and non-sensationalist good news that can be reported about this nuclear incident this point in time.



Happy now?

No because that's not a fact either. Most WMDs today use some fusion combined with fisson :P It is still possible, albeit incredibly difficult and extremely unlikely for such an explosion to occur in the reactor or spent fuel pools. It would be a tiny one in comparison to those produced by an Atomic Bomb. It can explode like an atomic bomb just not to same scale or magnitude.

Hotblack Desiato

Malty_T wrote: »

It is still possible

It is not at all possible for a reactor to explode (in the same way a bomb does) even if it totally melts down.

http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/7149/why-does-nuclear-fuel-not-form-a-critical-mass-in-the-course-of-a-meltdown


- Enrichment is far too low

- IF the fuel totally melts into a pool, the control rods melt into the pool too - which are made of materials like boron which absorb neutrons and prevent a chain reaction from sustaining itself

- Additional boron has been injected into the reactors in the cooling water.

- 'Explosions' occurring in reactors like RBMK (Chernobyl) and SL-1 (US Army research reactor) which went supercritical in a very short time were actually steam explosions. Still powerful enough to blow the fuel apart and, with no containment, disperse it widely. Not only do all Western reactors built since the 1950s have containment, they are designed so as not to allow the power level to increase dangerously even if a control rod is accidentally removed entirely.

- Once the earthquake was detected (some minutes before the tsunami hit) the reactors were automatically shut down by inserting all the control rods. In other words the chain reaction was killed dead. What has been causing the problem since then is not an ongoing chain reaction but the decay heat from the fission products already generated before the reactor shut down.

Turtwig

ninja900 wrote: »

It is not at all possible for a reactor to explode (in the same way a bomb does) even if it totally melts down.

Spoil sport. S/He said "like" not the same way as. It is possible for a tiny nuclear fission explosion to occur though.

Hotblack Desiato

Malty_T wrote: »

Spoil sport. S/He said "like" not the same way as. It is possible for a tiny nuclear fission explosion to occur though.

How is any sort of chain reaction going to be possible? You have low enriched fuel which needs a moderator (water - which slows the neutrons down and makes the reaction more efficient) to sustain a chain reaction. You (if it all melts down) have the reaction-killing control rods in the melt, which even when the moderator was still in place are able to kill the chain reaction stone dead.

It is just NOT possible - at all.

argosy2006

Look for that rainbow in the sky

Rob A. Bank

RichieC wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPqJ8C4xU5w

Is Mr Gunderson the guy who coined the phrase "Chernobyl on steroids" to describe this ongoing disaster ?

Rob A. Bank

http://cryptome.org/eyeball/daiichi-npp/daiichi-photos.htm

High rez aerial photos taken by a small unmanned drone on the 20th and 24th and released by Air Photo Service Co. Ltd, Japan.

Dempsey

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

Is Mr Gunderson the guy who coined the phrase "Chernobyl on steroids" to describe this ongoing disaster ?

6 fúcked reactors vs. one

Rob A. Bank

"Radiation fears have prevented authorities from collecting the bodies of as many as 1,000 people living in the evacuation zone who died in the 11 March earthquake and tsunami.

Kyodo news agency cited police sources as saying the corpses had been exposed to high radiation levels and would probably have to be decontaminated before they could be collected and examined by doctors.

Left as they were, the bodies could pose a health threat to relatives identifying them at morgues, the agency said. Cremating them could create radioactive smoke, while burying them could contaminate soil."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/31/japan-pressure-nuclear-evacuation-zone?intcmp=239

Yet another horriffic problem for the authorities to deal with... contaminated corpses.