Japanese earthquake / tsunami discussion

bradlente

3 Weeks today and still no respite for Japan.

Hotblack Desiato

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

Kyodo news agency cited police sources as saying the corpses had been exposed to high radiation levels and would probably have to be decontaminated before they could be collected and examined by doctors.

This is not credible and some news agency quoting an unnamed source expressing an unqualified opinion is a waste of ink.

The radiation level that could cause that does not exist in this accident and even if it did, collecting bodies would then be the last thing on anyone's mind.

Does not pass the smell test. But the Guardian will print anything that fits with their ideology.

Hotblack Desiato

Dempsey wrote: »

6 fúcked reactors vs. one

That's crap, to be blunt. Units 5 and 6 are in cold shutdown. 4 may have suffered some damage to the spent fuel but is otherwise ok. That leaves 3 reactors with serious damage but within a containment vessel.

Chernobyl only had one reactor involved in the accident, but no containment, its core was literally open to the sky and burning fiercely. Not comparable at all, except for those who want to deal in sensationalism, soundbytes and ignorance and repeatedly ignore the facts.

Dempsey

ninja900 wrote: »

That's crap, to be blunt. Units 5 and 6 are in cold shutdown. 4 may have suffered some damage to the spent fuel but is otherwise ok. That leaves 3 reactors with serious damage but within a containment vessel.

Chernobyl only had one reactor involved in the accident, but no containment, its core was literally open to the sky and burning fiercely. Not comparable at all, except for those who want to deal in sensationalism, soundbytes and ignorance and repeatedly ignore the facts.

Oh sorry its only 4 out of 6 that are ****ed

Ah yes, 5 & 6 had no problems whatsoever :rolleyes:

Cathaoirleach

World's largest concrete pump en route to Fukushima.

The world's largest concrete pump, deployed at the construction site of the U.S. government's $4.86 billion mixed oxide fuel plant at Savannah River Site, is being moved to Japan in a series of emergency measures to help stabilize the Fukushima reactors.

"The bottom line is, the Japanese need this particular unit worse than we do, so we're giving it up," said Jerry Ashmore, whose company, Augusta-based Ashmore Concrete Contractors, Inc., is the concrete supplier for the MOX facility.

The 190,000-pound pump, made by German-based Putzmeister has a 70-meter boom and can be controlled remotely, making it suitable for use in the unpredictable and highly radioactive environment of the doomed nuclear reactors in Japan, he said.


"There are only three of these pumps in the world, of which two are suited for this work, so we have to get it there as soon as we can," Ashmore said in an interview Thursday. "Time is very much a factor."


The pump was moved Wednesday from the construction site in Aiken County to a facility in Hanahan, S.C., for minor modifications, and will be trucked to Atlanta's Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport, where it will be picked up by the world's largest cargo plane, the Russian-made Antonov 225, which will fly it to Tokyo.


http://chronicle.augusta.com/latest-news/2011-03-31/srs-concrete-pump-heading-japan-nuclear-site?v=1301580247

gbee

Kan: Cooling effort is extremely important and must be maintained. As well as that many other things have occurred including contamination of stagnant water. We must get the cooling system functioning fully.

Kan said he is implementing new measures for safety in the remaining nuclear plants and plans for building new ones will be reviewed. They are accepting help from US, Britain and France in this ongoing problem.

Kan went on to say that the adoption of nuclear power was attractive because they did not create CO2 and so did not add to ‘global warming’

me: Dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t

28,000 now is the official figure for death and missing. RIP

Dempsey

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

World's largest concrete pump en route to Fukushima.

The world's largest concrete pump, deployed at the construction site of the U.S. government's $4.86 billion mixed oxide fuel plant at Savannah River Site, is being moved to Japan in a series of emergency measures to help stabilize the Fukushima reactors.

"The bottom line is, the Japanese need this particular unit worse than we do, so we're giving it up," said Jerry Ashmore, whose company, Augusta-based Ashmore Concrete Contractors, Inc., is the concrete supplier for the MOX facility.

The 190,000-pound pump, made by German-based Putzmeister has a 70-meter boom and can be controlled remotely, making it suitable for use in the unpredictable and highly radioactive environment of the doomed nuclear reactors in Japan, he said.


"There are only three of these pumps in the world, of which two are suited for this work, so we have to get it there as soon as we can," Ashmore said in an interview Thursday. "Time is very much a factor."


The pump was moved Wednesday from the construction site in Aiken County to a facility in Hanahan, S.C., for minor modifications, and will be trucked to Atlanta's Hartsfield-Jackson International Airport, where it will be picked up by the world's largest cargo plane, the Russian-made Antonov 225, which will fly it to Tokyo.


http://chronicle.augusta.com/latest-news/2011-03-31/srs-concrete-pump-heading-japan-nuclear-site?v=1301580247

All they'll need is a few of these

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvEDVuGOJ6Y

Costs only €1.6bn, I'm sure they'll save some on a bulk order :pac:

My name is URL

ninja900 wrote: »

This is not credible and some news agency quoting an unnamed source expressing an unqualified opinion is a waste of ink.

The radiation level that could cause that does not exist in this accident and even if it did, collecting bodies would then be the last thing on anyone's mind.

Does not pass the smell test. But the Guardian will print anything that fits with their ideology.

More than 100 Japanese and US military planes and 65 ships are scouring the country's north-eastern coast to locate any remaining bodies.

Employing some 24,000 military personnel, the three-day air and sea operation will focus on shores that were largely submerged or remain under water, as well as the mouths of major rivers.

Many coastal areas remain inaccessible to rescuers trying enter by road or foot, blocked by the mangled remains of houses, ships, cars and trains.

Because of radiation concerns, the search does not include the 20km (12-mile) evacuation zone around the Fukushima Daiichi plant, where there are believed to be 1,000 bodies.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12930949

Rob A. Bank

ninja900 wrote: »

This is not credible and some news agency quoting an unnamed source expressing an unqualified opinion is a waste of ink.

The radiation level that could cause that does not exist in this accident and even if it did, collecting bodies would then be the last thing on anyone's mind.

Does not pass the smell test. But the Guardian will print anything that fits with their ideology.

So your olfactory organs have an agenda to down-play this unmitigated disaster too ? :rolleyes:

Up to 1,000 bodies left untouched near nuclear plant due to radiation fears

"Elevated levels of radiation detected on the victim in the town of Okuma last Sunday forced local police to give up on retrieving the body.

‘‘Measures that can be taken vary depending on the level of radiation, so there need to be professionals who can control radiation,’’ said an expert on treating people exposed to radiation.

‘‘One option is to take decontamination vehicles there and decontaminate the bodies one by one.’‘

http://www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/higher-radiation-found-outside-japan-nuclear-plant

gbee

and a story on NHK earlier about how [locals] decided to collect some 300 bodies and cremate them without identification took them to their crematorium only to find they could not be burnt because the oven was damaged.

Overheal

lolz i can type in bold too to make my text sound more impressive, even terror-fying.

Imagine.

Personally though I like to read when people are using their indoor text.

But back to the matter at hand we already know there are toxic levels of radiation in the water around the plant, why do we need to get all alarmist about it? Media has been reporting that for at least a week. The important underlying bit is what relevance does that have to Joe Schmoe living in Portland or Bob Dilligaf in Shannon? 'Not a whole lot' is the answer to that. They've found trace idodines in the local milk in Oregon, but thats still hundreds of times lower than the amounts that would trigger a need for the FDA to step in and block the consumption of milk. And if I know this, the Oregonians know this, and they can choose whether to keep buying milk or not, without the unnecessary panicking.

take everything

lolz i can type in bold too to make my text sound more impressive, even terror-fying.

Imagine.

Personally though I like to read when people are using their indoor text.

I'm no fan of the scare-mongering posts but there does seem to be an almost reflex dismissal of any dissenting posts.
Reminds me a bit of this:

The important underlying bit is what relevance does that have to Joe Schmoe living in Portland or Bob Dilligaf in Shannon? 'Not a whole lot' is the answer to that.

Isn't this disaster of interest to anyone who has an interest in the nuclear debate, wherever they live.

Overheal

take everything wrote: »

Isn't this disaster of interest to anyone who has an interest in the nuclear debate, wherever they live.

Sure, but the difference is I can freely discuss irradiated ocean water or aircraft carriers getting a scrub-down after coming across a plume without all the "doom and gloom HOLY **** TERROR this is it guys, get to your shelter" style BS formatting.

And theres just so much unsubstantiated radiophobia out there right now that you *have* to verify what you're reading. "Full meltdown workers evacuated" bla bla bla then you say "oh really?" then you look it up and it becomes down to "oh they had to leave for an hour, no apocalypse yet lulz" etc. - and it's been like that for 2 weeks now. I've since gotten exhausted of on-the-minute updates that usually lead to misinformation and panic.

Realizing that the US will lag behind about a week to any particular particle that escapes the plant, and Ireland is 2 weeks out, I can happily go back and read verified accounts of what happened yesterday and still be up to date on the current situation. It's not like the plant going into a full blow open-fire meltdown in the next 20 minutes is going to impact me significantly for - days, literally. And for those in Japan I can bet my left ass-cheek they will know about it before I do and respond in a way that is essential to them.

My name is URL

Overheal wrote: »

Sure, but the difference is I can freely discuss irradiated ocean water or aircraft carriers getting a scrub-down after coming across a plume without all the "doom and gloom HOLY **** TERROR this is it guys, get to your shelter" style BS formatting.

Why not report those posts for taking away from discussion then, instead of carrying on in the same vain only to show your disapproval?

I agree with what take everything said above re the instant dismisal of dissenting posts.. it isn't even limited to dissent at this stage, but most of what is being mentioned by the mainstream and some academic sources

Turtwig

My name is URL wrote: »

Why not report those posts for taking away from discussion then, instead of carrying on in the same vain only to show your disapproval?

I agree with what take everything said above re the instant dismisal of dissenting posts.. it isn't even limited to dissent at this stage, but most of what is being mentioned by the mainstream and some academic sources

Has anyone actually dismissed the Newscientist article about the caesium isotopes or the IAEA recommendation about widening the evacuation zone?

take everything

Realizing that the US will lag behind about a week to any particular particle that escapes the plant, and Ireland is 2 weeks out, I can happily go back and read verified accounts of what happened yesterday and still be up to date on the current situation. It's not like the plant going into a full blow open-fire meltdown in the next 20 minutes is going to impact me significantly for - days, literally. And for those in Japan I can bet my left ass-cheek they will know about it before I do and respond in a way that is essential to them.

Didn't think there was any threat to us, no matter what happened at the plant. :eek::pac:
Surely this isn't an issue is it.

My name is URL

Malty_T wrote: »

Has anyone actually dismissed the Newscientist article about the caesium isotopes or the IAEA recommendation about widening the evacuation zone?

Not directly, but when I posted about it last time I was met with a very handy guide on how to read such articles and warned against being alarmist even though all I did was quote the title of the article as an example of how it was not only tabloid or conspiracy outfits pushing the doomsday angle.

I have a suspicion that some people are so preoccupied with slamming the obvious fear-mongerers that they are either losing site of or unwilling to accept that the situation in Fukishima is worth reporting on at all.

Turtwig

My name is URL wrote: »

Not directly, but when I posted about it last time I was met with a very handy guide on how to read such articles and warned against being alarmist even though all I did was quote the title of the article as an example of how it was not only tabloid or conspiracy outfits pushing the doomsday angle.

I have a suspicion that some people are so preoccupied with slamming the obvious fear-mongerers that they are either losing site of or unwilling to accept that the situation in Fukishima is worth reporting on at all.

Well I don't know what the warning was or who warned you but if it was about NewScientist and their over sensationalist headlines then that was probably sound advice - and I'm a subscriber. The articles are usually decently balanced though.:)
Fukushima is definitely worth reporting on. The thing is it's also made it pretty clear that people have an irrational fear of radiation what it is, what's it's benefits and risks are. More accurate public awareness on this issue is badly needed. The fact that most people have been centering on plutonium as if it's the be and all end of all poisons is, well, scary. A couple months of back NewScientist ran an article about Human beings irrational fear of radiation. If the general populace had been made more aware of articles of a similar nature before this incident then they might we might not be in the situation we are in now. After this incident it will much harder to divulge this information because naysers will see it merely as attempts by authorities to downplay the reality. The reality, our fear of all things Nuclear is so over exaggerated. The big danger here is that the western world steps away Nuclear power generation completely, just uses it for military and medicinal stuff. Actually that wouldn't be such a bad thing in my eyes especially if they deserted military as well but only if the rest of the world followed because nothing scares me more than letting China, Russia and other similar nations be the world leaders in Nuclear Power. Ffs, the Eastern Bloc still has 3 power plants in operation that are the same design as Chernobyl and have the same design flaws. That's a disgrace imo. China already has an abysmal safety record when it comes to power generation from Coal.

vibe666

Rob A. Bank wrote: »

So your olfactory organs have an agenda to down-play this unmitigated disaster too ? :rolleyes:

Up to 1,000 bodies left untouched near nuclear plant due to radiation fears

here you are Rob, this is you in a nutshell.

28,000+ dead bodies = meh, not worth a single post of my time (almost 200 posts on the subject now btw)

(up to) 1,000 (possibly, nobody actually knows yet) irradiated bodies (who died of other causes, still zero radiation related deaths) = unmitigated disaster, oh noes, nuclear catastrophe, the sky is falling etc.

3ndahalfof6

vibe666 wrote: »

here you are Rob, this is you in a nutshell.

28,000+ dead bodies = meh, not worth a single post of my time (almost 200 posts on the subject now btw)

(up to) 1,000 (possibly, nobody actually knows yet) irradiated bodies (who died of other causes, still zero radiation related deaths) = unmitigated disaster, oh noes, nuclear catastrophe, the sky is falling etc.

lol its the bitcching on this thread is why I don't bother, to me it looks like you sit and wait to beat, or try to beat someone up for posting,

to sad, is there no reason why you can not let people make up their own minds on the information they are getting.

Nobody is telling you to eat it, someone will be right but no matter who is right it will still be a mess,

your lucky its not on your door step, the people who are directly involved in this situation would be glad of any information, as from the start it has been lie upon lie,

prepare for the worst situation, please let me know what this is.

gbee

Tonight, Cork time: for the first time in three weeks I have not listened to Japanese news. It's just getting to me.

The bodies they cannot cremate because of damaged crematoriums, the mothers who fled and are now grieving for their children and blaming themselves for not doing more.

Community survivors moving to to other prefectures and abandoning their ancestral lands for fear that will never subside.

The schools that had been deliberately built on high ground that got swept away anyway with the loss of many students. The safety spots and buildings that just washed away with all inside.

Some places suffered 20 metre waves, a size never before witnessed, a theoretical 30m wave was somewhat discredited but seeing 20m waves just breeze inland makes one wonder if even worse is possible.

And during the last three weeks Japan suffered some extremes in weather including sub zero temperatures, ice, snow and floods.

Not to mention, temporary food shortages, fuels shortages, medicine shortages. One doctor 'hospitals' working 24/7 .... the mind just boggles.

vibe666

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

lol its the bitcching on this thread is why I don't bother, to me it looks like you sit and wait to beat, or try to beat someone up for posting,

to sad, is there no reason why you can not let people make up their own minds on the information they are getting.

i'm very sorry it upsets you, but some of us actually have an interest in the little things like 'reality', 'facts', 'the truth', you know, that sort of thing. and we spend quite a lot of time finding stuff out and posting here so other people can partake of those little things and actually find out what's really going on in japan so forgive us for having a very low tolerance for bullsh1t from someone who has posted close to 200 posts of nothing but BS since the start of the thread.

Overheal

take everything wrote: »

Didn't think there was any threat to us, no matter what happened at the plant. :eek::pac:
Surely this isn't an issue is it.

Realistically, no. Some radiation may reach Ireland but you are probably discussing concentrations that are (either) hundreds or thousands of times below what would raise concern for anyone outside of the academia.

If that changes, you'll know about it with at least a week of forward notice.

3ndahalfof6

vibe666 wrote: »

i'm very sorry it upsets you, but some of us actually have an interest in the little things like 'reality', 'facts', 'the truth', you know, that sort of thing. and we spend quite a lot of time finding stuff out and posting here so other people can partake of those little things and actually find out what's really going on in japan so forgive us for having a very low tolerance for bullsh1t from someone who has posted close to 200 posts of nothing but BS since the start of the thread.

This will be my last post on this subject, you spend a lot of time what? trying to prove someone wrong or there content wrong, reality is fact, truth is, let me see your face and the book your reading from,

low tolerance of bullshiit is someone who understands bullshiit letting them scoop it away, but I am sure of 1 thing on this thread your fire will be kept alive.

Overheal

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

prepare for the worst situation, please let me know what this is.

Thats the thing though: there are literally days, even weeks of lead-time on Any eventuality. There's no reason to be Ducking and Covering on the other side of the globe because of a situation developing in Japan. When things happen they will not happen For You suddenly, or even overnight.

• First thing thats going to happen is you'll hear Ground Zero news out of Japan
• Then you may hear Pacific Ocean reports about navy and shipping vessels: being mindful of their location.
• Then possibly Hawaii, but not really, it's very far out of the picture. More accurately you'll hear about the situation next from the West Coast of the United States
• Then the US Midlands, the US East coast, etc.
• If anything is left after that, it's the still-airborne stuff that may find its way to iceland and greenland
• at this point, you will then pick up the scent in Ireland.

Total travel time: Lots. Im not going to look up the accurate number, **** it. I know a tropical storm system can hit the coast of Florida and still take more than a week to hit Ireland as a spell of slightly drearier piss than the typical amount of dreary piss. In comparison how potent do you think the concentrations of radiation will be if they manage to reach Ireland? From Japan? I cant imagine how a radioactive particle heavy enough to do any real damage to you could travel so far.

That's kind of what we're getting at here, really. That there is no need for Speculation or Time-Sensitive panic mongering. You have Plenty of Time to calmly Verify all of the facts, opinions, and analysis flying at you, before you need to take any sort of wild precautions. Without all this conspiracy garbage about how the World is apparently trying to cover up how bad the radiation is. Lookit, if radiation can make it to Ireland, undetected? Then I say Props isotope. Props.

It's not beating someone up for posting. Plenty of people have posted asking for questions about their fears (notably, fears about whether a reactor could Explode like a weaponized bomb) - totally legitimate question. Personally what I don't find to be legitimate though is persisting in claims that the situation is far worse than it is, even if all sources of information seem to indicate otherwise.

vibe666

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

This will be my last post on this subject, you spend a lot of time what? trying to prove someone wrong or there content wrong, reality is fact, truth is, let me see your face and the book your reading from,

low tolerance of bullshiit is someone who understands bullshiit letting them scoop it away, but I am sure of 1 thing on this thread your fire will be kept alive.

sorry, but you really aren't making much sense in either of those sentences, so i'm not exactly sure what i was supposed to make of them. was it a haiku?

anyway, thanks for 'not being bothered' about the thread as you said previously and yet still feeling the need to pop in 3 weeks into it to give your opinion about those of us who do without actually taking the time to read the thread. bye bye now.

andrew

A really good presentation detailing why the buildings exploded (and some other aspects of the situation).

vibe666

small bit of good news for a change: coast guard rescues dog floating on the roof of a house after 3 weeks at sea

there's a video on the link as well.

The Japan Coast Guard has rescued a dog from a roof of a house drifting in waters off Miyagi Prefecture. The dog seems to have spent 3 weeks on the roof since the March 11th quake and tsunami hit his home.

On Friday afternoon, a coast guard helicopter saw a dog on a house drifting in the sea about 1.8 kilometers off Kesennuma City, northern Japan.

Two rescue team members got down to the roof from the helicopter, but the dog was scared by the hovering sound and ran off.

Using a small boat, rescue team members approached the dog again. One of them jumped into the sea and managed to catch the dog.
It is a middle-sized brown dog with black ears, and has a collar.

When moved to a patrol boat, the dog looked weak and lay down. But later it was able to get up and to eat sausages and cookies. The dog recovered enough to wag its tail and lick the face of a crew member. The coast guard is looking for the dog's owner.

Japan's Self-Defense Forces and the US military launched a massive joint operation on Friday to find those still missing after the disaster. The coast guard is taking part in the operation.
Saturday, April 02, 2011 09:05 +0900 (JST)

3 weeks is a long time to be floating along out at sea all on your own, poor little thing.

Coles

Here's a very good source of information on what's actually happening at Fukushima. Quite worrying.

Fairewinds

shedweller

Bit of background information on Arnold Gundersen, the guy in the video:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Gundersen
And some more info:
http://www.fairewinds.com

Arnie is an energy advisor with 39-years of nuclear power engineering experience. A former nuclear industry senior vice president, he earned his Bachelor's and Master's Degrees in nuclear engineering, holds a nuclear safety patent, and was a licensed reactor operator. During his nuclear industry career, Arnie managed and coordinated projects at 70-nuclear power plants around the country. He currently speaks on television, radio, and at public meetings on the need for a new paradigm in energy production. An independent nuclear engineering and safety expert, Arnie provides testimony on nuclear operations, reliability, safety, and radiation issues to the NRC, Congressional and State Legislatures, and Government Agencies and Officials throughout the US, Canada, and internationally. In 2008, he was appointed by the Vermont Senate President to be the first Chair of the Vermont Yankee Nuclear Power Plant Oversight Panel. He has testified in numerous cases and before many different legislative bodies including the Czech Republic Senate. Using knowledge from his Masters Thesis on Cooling Towers, Arnie analyzed and predicted problems with Vermont Yankee’s cooling towers three years prior to their 2007 collapse. His Environmental Court testimony concerned available and economically viable alternatives to cooling towers in order to reduce consumptive water use and the ecological damage caused by cooling tower drift and heated effluents. As the former vice president in an engineering organization, Arnie led the team of engineers who developed the plans for decommissioning Shippingport, the first major nuclear power plant in the US to be fully dismantled. He was also an invited author on the first DOE Decommissioning Handbook. Source term reconstruction is a method of forensic engineering used to calculate radiation releases from various nuclear facilities after nuclear incidents or accidents. Arnie is frequently called upon by public officials, attorneys, and intervenors, to perform source term reconstructions. His source term reconstruction efforts vary. Arnie has calculated exposures to oil workers, who received radiation exposure while working on wells. He has also calculated radiation releases to children with health concerns, who live near a nuclear facility, like the one that carted radioactive sewage off-site and spread it on farmers' fields. Finally, he has performed an accurate source term construction of the radiation releases from the Three Mile Island nuclear accident. Also involved in his local community, Arnie has been a part-time math professor at Community College of Vermont (CCV) since 2007. He also taught high school physics and mathematics for 13 years and was an instructor at RPI's college reactor lab.

He knows his stuff eh?!