Japanese earthquake / tsunami discussion

amacachi

Malty_T wrote: »

No way this explosion should have a happened and someone's head is definitely gonna roll unless there was nothing that could be done to prevent it (unlikely). Now, we've gone from an unlikely containment breach to a possible one.
The only glimmer of hope being that the explosion was supposedly near an already cooled unit. The thing is though was it a containment building or wasn't it?

The only sackings that could be justified are in the communications/PR department.

gman2k

Amazing footage from Shinchi - a train smashed to pieces lying on it's side, and the town that used to surround the railway area is simply gone.

drdeadlift

amacachi wrote: »

The only sackings that could be justified are in the communications/PR department.

I think they are alot more concerned about dealing with the disaster.

BluePlanet

Japan has a history of covering up nuclear accidents so i wouldn't put much faith in their statements on this one.

1999 Criticality Event
On June 18, 1999 during an inspection, an emergency control rod insertion was to be performed on Unit 1. One rod was to be inserted into the reactor, however, due to improper following of the procedure, instead of one rod inserting, 3 rods withdrew. For the next 15 minutes, the reactor was in a dangerous criticality state.

This event was not revealed until March 15, 2007, since it was covered up in the records. The unit has been shut down since that date.

On June 5, 2007 the committee chairman of the Japan Nuclear Safety Commission inspected the control rod housing and drive mechanisms and evaluated that the event was due to cutting corners. He also concluded that the reactor operators at the time were under a lot of pressures from above, and simply punishing the operators would not be an effective deterrent for future accidents.

One proposed measure was to have alarms automatically record when they go off so that records can not be altered.

A lower court had ordered the entire plant to be shut down, but that decision was later overturned by Nagoya's high court. The utility put in a request to the Ishikawa prefectural government and the town of Shika for the restart of unit 1.[1] The unit returned to power on May 11, 2009 and resumed commercial operation on May 13

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shika_Nuclear_Power_Plant#1999_Criticality_Event

clln

Greenpeace spokesman on BBC very sceptical that we are being told the truth;

saying crisis is far from over and his opinion is this will most likely lead to a very large release.

PeakOutput

BluePlanet wrote: »

Japan has a history of covering up nuclear accidents so i wouldn't put much faith in their statements on this one.

did you not read what you posted yourself? the people who made the mistake covered it up, thats quite different to the japanese goverment covering something up. when they found out they investigated and changed procedures so it could not happen again.

the worlds eyes are on japan right now, there is no way the individual stations will get a chance to keep information away from the goverment

PeakOutput

clln wrote: »

Greenpeace spokesman on BBC very sceptical that we are being told the truth;

saying crisis is far from over and his opinion is this will most likely lead to a very large release.

and his opinion is worth listening to because? I assume he has some letters after his name that when translated explain he is actually a nuclear energy engineer / scientist of some sort?

of course he couldnt be trying to make assertions that reinforce his organisations agenda

BluePlanet

Not only did they try to cover-up the accident of Skika Nuclear Power plant, but also in Monju.

However, there was massive public outrage in Japan when it was revealed that Power Reactor and Nuclear Fuel Development Corporation (PNC), the semigovernmental agency then in charge of Monju, had tried to cover up the extent of the accident and resulting damage. This coverup included falsifying reports and the editing of a videotape taken immediately after the accident, as well as the issuing of a gag order to employees regarding the existence of the real tapes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monju_Nuclear_Power_Plant

So like i said, Japan has a history of attempting to cover-up their nuclear accidents so i would advise folks to be skeptical that we are getting the truth about this one.

The reason I think this could get worse and worse is that they had a chance from the very beginning to gain control of it... And the more it melts, the more radiation that gets released and the more it blows up, the harder it is to regain control quickly.

Aidric

amacachi wrote: »

The plants cannot have a "nuclear explosion", it's not how physics works!

Good to wake up and see the news media doing the same as they were last night. There's fires at oil refineries, cracks in hydro-electric dams and other really bad things going on but they focus on something which is far less dangerous even in an unlikely scenario and seem to enjoy the hint that a power station could affect the whole world.

Sadly it's the direction the media has gone.

NeedaNewName

snubbleste wrote: »

I don't watch either, i like my news unspun and untarnished.

Pray tell where do you manage to get that from?

Topper Harley01

Just reported that the Japanese govt. have decided to flood the rods with seawater, which will resolve the situation permanently.

The downside is that the plant will be written off.


Looks like you can start to unbunch those panties people. Now go about your business in an orderly fashion.

BluePlanet

There was a recent accident at a Japanese nuclear facility also caused by an earthquake as early as 2007.

Radiation leaks etc, criticisms at the company for not being forthcoming.
International Atomic Energy Agency got involved (their involvement belatedly accepted by Japan).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashiwazaki-Kariwa_Nuclear_Power_Plant#2007_Ch.C5.ABetsu_offshore_earthquake

not a good track record here i'm afraid.

clln

PeakOutput wrote: »

and his opinion is worth listening to because? I assume he has some letters after his name that when translated explain he is actually a nuclear energy engineer / scientist of some sort?

of course he couldnt be trying to make assertions that reinforce his organisations agenda

peakoutput this is not a thread for squabbling!:mad:

if you go far back enough on todays posts you will see i said i will ignore all professors and that a major propaganda operation going on supported by Countries who are equally as dependent on nucleur power plants.

i also said i will believe what we are being fed when an independent country gives radiation levels.

Finland knew about Chernobyl before Moscow did.

Turtwig

Topper Harley01 wrote: »

Just reported that the Japanese govt. have decided to flood the rods with seawater, which will resolve the situation permanently.

The downside is that the plant will be written off.


Looks like you can start to unbunch those panties people. Now go about your business in an orderly fashion.

The affected units were already pretty much written off, so nothing new there. Flooding with sea water is quite a drastic step. Just hope it's a calculated one and not panicked one.

BluePlanet wrote: »

There was a recent accident at a Japanese nuclear facility also caused by an earthquake as early as 2007.

Radiation leaks etc, criticisms at the company for not being forthcoming.
International Atomic Energy Agency got involved (their involvement belatedly accepted by Japan).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashiwazaki-Kariwa_Nuclear_Power_Plant#2007_Ch.C5.ABetsu_offshore_earthquake

not a good track record here i'm afraid.

From the Wiki wrote:

The IAEA sent a team for a follow-up visit in January 2008. They concluded that much high-quality inspection work had been undertaken and noted the likely improvements to nuclear seismic design worldwide that may result from this process.[17] An additional visit from an IAEA team of 10 experts occurred in December 2008, noting that the "unexpectedly large ground motions" were now well understood and could be protected against, and further confirming the safe performance of the plant during the quake.

This one doesn't really compare though because there was no explosion at that plant.

Ficheall

Topper Harley01 wrote: »

Just reported that the Japanese govt. have decided to flood the rods with seawater, which will resolve the situation permanently.

The downside is that the plant will be written off.


Looks like you can start to unbunch those panties people. Now go about your business in an orderly fashion.

Linky?

Rob A. Bank

The past history of the Tokyo Electric Power's falsifcation of safety records somehow reminds me of Mr Burns from the Simpsons and does not increase my trust in their present spin on this evolving disaster.

"(Reuters) - The company at the center of a nuclear reactor crisis following the biggest earthquake in Japan's recorded history has had a rocky past in an industry plagued by scandal.

The Japanese government said on Saturday that there had been radiation leakage at Tokyo Electric Power's (TEPCO) Fukushima Daiichi plant following an explosion there.
The blast came as TEPCO was working desperately to reduce pressures in the core of a reactor at the 40-year-old plant, which lies 240 km (150 miles) north of Tokyo.
In 2002, the president of the country's largest power utility was forced to resign along with four other senior executives, taking responsibility for suspected falsification of nuclear plant safety records.
The company was suspected of 29 cases involving falsified repair records at nuclear reactors. It had to stop operations at five reactors, including the two damaged in the latest tremor, for safety inspections.
A few years later it ran into trouble again over accusations of falsifying data.
In late 2006, the government ordered TEPCO to check past data after it reported that it had found falsification of coolant water temperatures at its Fukushima Daiichi plant in 1985 and 1988, and that the tweaked data was used in mandatory inspections at the plant, which were completed in October 2005.
And in 2007, TEPCO reported that it had found more past data falsifications, though this time it did not have to close any of its plants."

shadowninty

clln wrote: »

Greenpeace spokesman on BBC very sceptical that we are being told the truth;

saying crisis is far from over and his opinion is this will most likely lead to a very large release.

i agree with lots of things Greenpeace say, but their stance on nuclear power is completely untenable and irrational

tricky D

PeakOutput wrote: »

did you not read what you posted yourself? the people who made the mistake covered it up, thats quite different to the japanese goverment covering something up. when they found out they investigated and changed procedures so it could not happen again.

the worlds eyes are on japan right now, there is no way the individual stations will get a chance to keep information away from the goverment

Japanese and many other eastern cultures place a great deal of importance on saving face. One of the effects of this is the greater propensity to cover up at any level. A quick Google of 'japan saving face' bears this out.

clln

shadowninty wrote: »

i agree with lots of things Greenpeace say, but their stance on nuclear power is completely untenable and irrational

I think some healthy scepticism is welcome from all quaters,like i say countries take their own readings and the truth will out if Japan is lying.

amacachi

shadowninty wrote: »

i agree with lots of things Greenpeace say, but their stance on nuclear power is completely untenable and irrational

Don't forget their desire to see Chlorine completely banned from drinking water. :pac:

On what I can gather (which may be well off the mark) I was thinking last night it may have been a good idea to have more of a release last night, or if there is any more releases they should make sure it's as the wind is blowing out to sea.

Turtwig

shadowninty wrote: »

i agree with lots of things Greenpeace say, but their stance on nuclear power is completely untenable and irrational

And
GM Foods.
And
Climate Change.
And
Well just about anything related to science.:D

@Amachi barring a disaster the releases should be ok, it's just people go all "OMG OMG RADIOACTIVE SUBSTANCE!!" about it. Imo, they should have released more earlier, obviously we don't have the details but I have a sneaking suspicion that they let too much pressure build amid pressures of releasing it unless they absolutely HAD to.

baalthor

tricky D wrote: »

Japanese and many other eastern cultures place a great deal of importance on saving face. One of the effects of this is the greater propensity to cover up at any level. A quick Google of 'japan saving face' bears this out.

And we don't ?

Did you notice our recent banking crisis/economic disaster ?

clln

RTE News is just reporting that the Japanese Govt is admitting to high radiation levels outside the reactor.

Seaneh

japan is weird.
watch the film Freakomomics.
There is a section about cheating, they is sumo as a case study. in sumo the idea of honour is central. The idea of cheating or corruption is unthinkable but in reality both are rife in the sport, its probably the most corrupt sport on earth. But it has never been investigated by the police or the sumo association., because exposing that corruption would undermine not just the sport but the honour system that every single part of japanese culture is supposedly built on.
In japan the conviction rate for murder is one of the highest in the world, but only because only a tiny percentage of murder cases are actually brought to trial. Investigating officers and state prosecutors will only bring cases they are 99% certain to win to trial, this is so they can be seen to be doing a good job, to be seen to be effective. If people knew the truth they would have less belief in the police and the state and it would undermine the system their culture is built on.

So basically, even though there is an outward facade of honour and discipline, in reality there is Unending corruption across all of japanese society to cover up the reality.


It's really messed up...

clln

Malty_T wrote: »

And
GM Foods.
And
Climate Change.
And
Well just about anything related to science.:D

@Amachi barring a disaster the releases should be ok, it's just people go all "OMG OMG RADIOACTIVE SUBSTANCE!!" about it. Imo, they should have released more earlier, obviously we don't have the details but I have a sneaking suspicion that they let too much pressure build amid pressures of releasing it unless they absolutely HAD to.

Malty Science also gave the world talidamide, a harmless little drug for morning sickness in women!

amacachi

Malty_T wrote: »

@Amachi barring a disaster the releases should be ok, it's just people go all "OMG OMG RADIOACTIVE SUBSTANCE!!" about it. Imo, they should have released more earlier, obviously we don't have the details but I have a sneaking suspicion that they let too much pressure build amid pressures of releasing it unless they absolutely HAD to.

Aye, worries about perception seems to adversely any policy or decisions on nuclear power alas.

PeakOutput

clln wrote: »

peakoutput this is not a thread for squabbling!:mad:

if you go far back enough on todays posts you will see i said i will ignore all professors and that a major propaganda operation going on supported by Countries who are equally as dependent on nucleur power plants.

i also said i will believe what we are being fed when an independent country gives radiation levels.

Finland knew about Chernobyl before Moscow did.

Telling you your listening to the wrong sources is not squabbling, listen to whatever makes you happy but if you keep trotting out propoganda from a ridicolous organisation like greenpeace im going to keep calling you out on it

clln wrote: »

I think some healthy scepticism is welcome from all quaters,like i say countries take their own readings and the truth will out if Japan is lying.

i agree but there is a difference between skepticism and taking one side over the other

i personally dont believe the japanese will have any opportunity to cover any of this up simply because of the sheer magnitude of it all. I also believe that the people who are trying to stop the worst from happening are doing their best because their lives are at risk as well.

amacachi

Seaneh wrote: »

In japan the conviction rate for murder is one of the highest in the world, but only because only a tiny percentage of murder cases are actually brought to trial. Investigating officers and state prosecutors will only bring cases they are 99% certain to win to trial, this is so they can be seen to be doing a good job, to be seen to be effective. If people knew the truth they would have less belief in the police and the state and it would undermine the system their culture is built on.

In 2006 there were no murder convictions in this country I think. It's always manslaughter here. So we ain't perfect either.

Darius.Tr

I'we read that these accidents could be caused by the moon as it is getting closer to earth...any ideas on this?the moon will be at its closest to earth since 1993...just wondering if this could be true